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Pre #5: Flyers @ Devils - Tuesday, Sept. 28, 2010 - 7:00 PM (ET)

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09-29-2010, 09:49 AM
  #351
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Hearing that JvR hurt someone with a check brings a tear to my eye, I am so proud of the young guy.

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09-29-2010, 09:50 AM
  #352
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Holmgren also has to sign him.....gotta keep him thinking we can go on with or without him.

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09-29-2010, 10:06 AM
  #353
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Seems like the coach is aware of what Guerin brings....http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...92810/45/30437


*****

There is a very different tone in assessing Bill Guerin's chances of making the Flyers, depending on whether head coach Peter Laviolette or general manager Paul Holmgren is speaking.

Laviolette said, ""Everybody knows what Billy Guerin does and what he can bring. It's just a matter of managing the (roster) spot."

It doesn't take too much reading between the lines to see that Laviolette couldn't care less what the veteran does in the preseason -- he wants the player on his team if there's a roster spot available.


It also doesn't take too much reading between the lines that Paul Holmgren favors giving a young player -- Ben Holmstrom, Mike Testwuide or Andreas Nodl -- every chance the roster spot that has been opened by Laperriere's injury. Holmgren has characterized Guerin's play so far as just "OK", said it's "admirable" that Guerin came to camp on a tryout and said the evaluation "process" is continuing while at the same time talking up the performance of some of the young players.

I don't think the head coach and GM are at odds over this enough to squawk if the other were to vehemently tell the other in private that he or does not want to commit to Guerin. This isn't a test of wills. However, I definitely think there's a difference of opinion that is only being hidden by the thinnest of smokescreens.
What is Lavi supposed to say?

If he doesn't talk his play up (which that quote did not do, in anyway, btw) and Homer signs him then he has a rift with one of his top 9 forwards all year. You will very rarely hear a coach criticize a possible roster player in the preseason, they leave that type of comment for the prospects.

It is extremely encouraging that Holmgren hasn't been tremendously pleased with Guerin thus far, though, certainly the first I have heard of it.

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09-29-2010, 11:01 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
What is Lavi supposed to say?

If he doesn't talk his play up (which that quote did not do, in anyway, btw) and Homer signs him then he has a rift with one of his top 9 forwards all year. You will very rarely hear a coach criticize a possible roster player in the preseason, they leave that type of comment for the prospects.

It is extremely encouraging that Holmgren hasn't been tremendously pleased with Guerin thus far, though, certainly the first I have heard of it.
If Laviolette wants Guerin for whatever reason you can book it that Guerin will have a contract regardless of what you, me, or anyone else thinks.

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09-29-2010, 11:42 AM
  #355
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If Laviolette wants Guerin for whatever reason you can book it that Guerin will have a contract regardless of what you, me, or anyone else thinks.
I was asking why Meltzer came to the conclusion that he did from Lavi's comments. You would expect a coach to say positive things about a player that he may end up having to coach next season, as to avoid a potential rift. This is not to mention that I actually thought his comments were rather non-committal.

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09-29-2010, 12:08 PM
  #356
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The one thing I cling onto is that Homer has been praising the rookies more than Guerin.

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09-29-2010, 12:36 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
What is Lavi supposed to say?

If he doesn't talk his play up (which that quote did not do, in anyway, btw) and Homer signs him then he has a rift with one of his top 9 forwards all year. You will very rarely hear a coach criticize a possible roster player in the preseason, they leave that type of comment for the prospects.
Right. No way Lavi is going to talk down a vet like Guerin, regardless of what he thinks of him.

What I don't get is Holmgren. I mean, what was he expecting exactly?

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09-29-2010, 12:44 PM
  #358
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JVR has been throwing his body around alot more during the pre-season. He did get stronger, but he was big to begin with. He's finally realized how big he actually is and doesn't have to play soft. Hopefully coburn has the same realization.

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09-29-2010, 12:50 PM
  #359
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Right. No way Lavi is going to talk down a vet like Guerin, regardless of what he thinks of him.

What I don't get is Holmgren. I mean, what was he expecting exactly?
This, except in the Orange & Black, by mid-June:


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09-29-2010, 01:03 PM
  #360
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JVR has been throwing his body around alot more during the pre-season. He did get stronger, but he was big to begin with. He's finally realized how big he actually is and doesn't have to play soft. Hopefully coburn has the same realization.
Reminds me of the conversation last night between Tim Saunders saying that #6 Sean O'Donnell looked like another #6, his broadcast partner, Chris Therien. I thought, "Um, Tim... Therien was never physical." Coburn was more physical prior to his 2008 eye injury. I hope he returns to that style of play.

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09-29-2010, 01:28 PM
  #361
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I was asking why Meltzer came to the conclusion that he did from Lavi's comments. You would expect a coach to say positive things about a player that he may end up having to coach next season, as to avoid a potential rift. This is not to mention that I actually thought his comments were rather non-committal.
Laviolette said, ""Everybody knows what Billy Guerin does and what he can bring. It's just a matter of managing the (roster) spot."


Basically it is what people have been saying about keeping him, if the spot is available and it can be fit into the cap space, no one else beats him out for the spot, most likely he is going to begin the season on the roster.

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09-29-2010, 01:30 PM
  #362
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JVR has been throwing his body around alot more during the pre-season. He did get stronger, but he was big to begin with. He's finally realized how big he actually is and doesn't have to play soft. Hopefully coburn has the same realization.
If Carter could just pick a little of that testosterone he could be unstoppable.

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09-29-2010, 01:33 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Laviolette said, ""Everybody knows what Billy Guerin does and what he can bring. It's just a matter of managing the (roster) spot."


Basically it is what people have been saying about keeping him, if the spot is available and it can be fit into the cap space, no one else beats him out for the spot, most likely he is going to begin the season on the roster.
I read that comment and think that Lavi was asked about Guerin's talent and took a bit of a copout move because he didn't have anything overly nice to say about him. As far as it being a matter of managing the roster spot, Lavi could very well think that the spot is better managed by having a rookie there.

I see absolutely no indication that Lavi wants Guerin on the team by that comment... I did; however, see some indication when Lavi took Guerin off Richards and Roo's line after he blew 2 or 3 gift wrapped goals and replaced him with Testwuide last night.

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09-29-2010, 01:40 PM
  #364
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Does anyone accuse Mark Recchi of tarnishing a legacy?

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1263 NHL Games.
400+ goals
400+ assists

2 World Cup appearances
3 Olympic appearances

4x All Star

Can't seem to find easy access to the list of American born goal-scorers, but he'd have to be way up there.

To suggest he doesn't have a legacy is ridiculous.
But it's not a legacy powerful enough to tarnish because he's played for like 25 teams. Mike Modano, Peter Bondra, Mats Sundin to some, Brian Leetch each drew/draw criticism for hanging around. People said Mark Recchi was once done, but people don't say that his legacy is being tarnished by hanging on with the Bruins, because he doesn't really have a great one. Guerin has also never been an elite player at his position for a long period of time.

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09-29-2010, 01:45 PM
  #365
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Does anyone accuse Mark Recchi of tarnishing a legacy?
recchi can still play

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09-29-2010, 01:51 PM
  #366
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recchi can still play
Well when he was hopping around Pittsburgh, Carolina, Atlanta - from waivers, and Tampa, everyone said he was done.

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09-29-2010, 02:12 PM
  #367
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But it's not a legacy powerful enough to tarnish because he's played for like 25 teams. Mike Modano, Peter Bondra, Mats Sundin to some, Brian Leetch each drew/draw criticism for hanging around. People said Mark Recchi was once done, but people don't say that his legacy is being tarnished by hanging on with the Bruins, because he doesn't really have a great one. Guerin has also never been an elite player at his position for a long period of time.
So, you can't have a legacy if you hop around?

Paul Coffey: Oilers, Penguins, Kings, Red Wings, Whalers, Flyers, Blackhawks, Hurricanes, Bruins

Phil Housley: Sabres, Jets, Blues, Flames, Devils, Capitals, Blackhawks, Leafs

Sorry, that's complete BS. Mark Recchi absolutely has a *ing legacy, just as Bill Guerin does. They're two of the best players of the last 20 years. The best? No, certainly not... but to suggest that you don't have a legacy after 1200+ games in the toughest league in the world.

Gimme a break.

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09-29-2010, 02:24 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
I read that comment and think that Lavi was asked about Guerin's talent and took a bit of a copout move because he didn't have anything overly nice to say about him. As far as it being a matter of managing the roster spot, Lavi could very well think that the spot is better managed by having a rookie there.

I see absolutely no indication that Lavi wants Guerin on the team by that comment... I did; however, see some indication when Lavi took Guerin off Richards and Roo's line after he blew 2 or 3 gift wrapped goals and replaced him with Testwuide last night.
I thought Guerin left last night after getting cut? How did Testwuide do last night? Do you have his career goal total available?

The comment I hear is given the roster spot opening we know what Guerin can do, it is just a matter of does he fill the spot better or can someone else win it from him? My guess is if someone gets a chance it would be Holmstrom, but we are once again talking about an unproven kid who has yet to have a taste of one NHL game.

Hey, we'll see. I would like nothing more than a couple young kids to make a run out of it, but Laviolette is well-known to like vets on his team.

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09-29-2010, 02:26 PM
  #369
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So, you can't have a legacy if you hop around?

Paul Coffey: Oilers, Penguins, Kings, Red Wings, Whalers, Flyers, Blackhawks, Hurricanes, Bruins

Phil Housley: Sabres, Jets, Blues, Flames, Devils, Capitals, Blackhawks, Leafs

Sorry, that's complete BS. Mark Recchi absolutely has a *ing legacy, just as Bill Guerin does. They're two of the best players of the last 20 years. The best? No, certainly not... but to suggest that you don't have a legacy after 1200+ games in the toughest league in the world.

Gimme a break.

They also both have their names on Lord Stanleys Cup.

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09-29-2010, 02:30 PM
  #370
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09-29-2010, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So, you can't have a legacy if you hop around?

Paul Coffey: Oilers, Penguins, Kings, Red Wings, Whalers, Flyers, Blackhawks, Hurricanes, Bruins

Phil Housley: Sabres, Jets, Blues, Flames, Devils, Capitals, Blackhawks, Leafs

Sorry, that's complete BS. Mark Recchi absolutely has a *ing legacy, just as Bill Guerin does. They're two of the best players of the last 20 years. The best? No, certainly not... but to suggest that you don't have a legacy after 1200+ games in the toughest league in the world.

Gimme a break.
I think you need to chill out or have a smoke or something. Are you going to tell your grandkids when you're 60 about "how wonderful Bill Guerin was...except for those years at the end when he was done but still toiled around the league begging for tryouts...so pathetic. He just wouldn't go away."

You're acting like this is Brett Favre or something. People want Mike Modano to retire so that he doesn't tarnish a legacy - one of the best players at his position for a long period of time, and for the same organization at that. People want Guerin to retire because he's old, worn down, and won't go away - not because he's tarnishing anything. People don't care about his mark left on the league. Significant difference. If Guerin retired tomorrow there would be much less said about him than if Mike Modano did.

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09-29-2010, 02:41 PM
  #372
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I think you need to chill out or have a smoke or something. Are you going to tell your grandkids when you're 60 about "how wonderful Bill Guerin was...except for those years at the end when he was done but still toiled around the league begging for tryouts...so pathetic. He just wouldn't go away."

You're acting like this is Brett Favre or something. People want Mike Modano to retire so that he doesn't tarnish a legacy - one of the best players at his position for a long period of time, and for the same organization at that. People want Guerin to retire because he's old, worn down, and won't go away - not because he's tarnishing anything. People don't care about his mark left on the league. Significant difference. If Guerin retired tomorrow there would be much less said about him than if Mike Modano did.
Well, lets slow down and make something clear: those people are *ing stupid, and I don't allow stupid people to shape my opinion. These are dudes getting paid lots of money to play a game that they presumably love to play. As long as they still want to play, and someone will give 'em a spot, there is absolutely no good reason for them to stop playing.

Modano has had a better career than Bill Guerin... but that doesn't mean Bill Guerin doesn't have a legacy. Lot of people were better players than say... Probert, dude has a legacy, no?

As far as my grandchildren go... wait, what? That's seriously your bar of measurement for whether a player has a legacy in the NHL?

The opinion is crap, GKJ. You play in this league for that long at that high a level, you have a legacy. He's one of the best US players ever, if nothing else.

EDIT: only 65 people in the history of the NHL have scored more goals than Bill Guerin. And only 21 have scored more goals than Mark Recchi, who is equally lacking in legacy apparently.


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09-29-2010, 03:16 PM
  #373
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How about a group hug? It's not even the regular season and peeps are reaching for other's necks. Peace.

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09-29-2010, 03:34 PM
  #374
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Well, lets slow down and make something clear: those people are *ing stupid, and I don't allow stupid people to shape my opinion. These are dudes getting paid lots of money to play a game that they presumably love to play. As long as they still want to play, and someone will give 'em a spot, there is absolutely no good reason for them to stop playing.

Modano has had a better career than Bill Guerin... but that doesn't mean Bill Guerin doesn't have a legacy. Lot of people were better players than say... Probert, dude has a legacy, no?

As far as my grandchildren go... wait, what? That's seriously your bar of measurement for whether a player has a legacy in the NHL?

The opinion is crap, GKJ. You play in this league for that long at that high a level, you have a legacy. He's one of the best US players ever, if nothing else.

EDIT: only 65 people in the history of the NHL have scored more goals than Bill Guerin. And only 21 have scored more goals than Mark Recchi, who is equally lacking in legacy apparently.
I try not to let others shape my opinion, but it's important to recognize that some of the people who help shape these legacies are a bunch of middle-aged or old white guys who sit in press boxes and at times antagonize them based on personal agendas. It was unfair to say "no legacy" but Guerin doesn't have one large enough that he's going to tarnish it by playing hockey until no one wants him anymore.

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09-29-2010, 03:38 PM
  #375
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How about a group hug? It's not even the regular season and peeps are reaching for other's necks. Peace.
We have to warm up here. It's been like 4 months since Jester and I had a novel-length debate. Although being less serious and more mellow is something I'm working on this year.

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