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Old
09-29-2010, 04:25 PM
  #1
dingbathero
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Top 10 PK Forwards

Because you asked for it:
LINK:
http://nhlhotstove.com/top-10-penalt...in-the-league/


Honorable Mention: (laughable)

(in no particular order)

Blair Betts – The former New York Ranger amassed 3:09 on the penalty kill, good for fifth in the league. Had he not been injured last year he probably would have ranked higher in shorthanded time of ice. His presence as well as his partner Ian Laperierre helped take the pressure off scoring forwards like Mike Richards and Simon Gagne– who previously spent time on the top unit. Betts also ranked 14th amongst forwards with blocked shots.

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Old
09-29-2010, 04:33 PM
  #2
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Lappy and Betts both get Honorable mention.

Jordan Staal nonsense continues. He's 4. Hossa is 3. Richards is not involved, but his name is dropped along with Gagne's in Betts' blurb.

There is no more annoying, more overrated, more overhyped player in professional sports than Jordan Staal...well maybe Danica Patrick. I mean, I've never seen a NASCAR race (is she even in NASCAR?), and she's everywhere. That's Jordan Staal.

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Old
09-29-2010, 04:40 PM
  #3
SeanVT395
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A list excluding Kesler, Betts, and Richards and has Staal and Hossa at # 4 and #3.....

laughable at best, no homer whatsoever

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Old
09-29-2010, 04:44 PM
  #4
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Even Datsyuk not even being said makes this a complete fail.

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09-29-2010, 04:48 PM
  #5
FlyHigh
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For the record, Jordan Staal had more ES points last year than anyone on the Flyers roster despite his primary linemates being Matt Cooke, Tyler Kennedy, Bill Guerin, Chris Kunitz and Mike Rupp (source, Dobber Hockey) not to mention he has size, speed and is an excellent faceoff guy. He's super overhyped! I guess this pertains more to the debate of Shafer attempting to claim that Giroux was better than Staal which was entertaining, sorry for going OT.



Richards not being on that list is somewhat ridiculous, same for Kesler. I mean, aren't those 2 the best in the league right there?

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Old
09-29-2010, 05:01 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
For the record, Jordan Staal had more ES points last year than anyone on the Flyers roster despite his primary linemates being Matt Cooke, Tyler Kennedy, Bill Guerin, Chris Kunitz and Mike Rupp (source, Dobber Hockey) not to mention he has size, speed and is an excellent faceoff guy. He's super overhyped! I guess this pertains more to the debate of Shafer attempting to claim that Giroux was better than Staal which was entertaining, sorry for going OT.
Same argument some Penguins fans make to claim Staal is better than Richards.

Carter's even strength points per minute was roughly double Richards' if I recall correctly.

Am I surprised a shallow, misguided argument came from you as well?

Not really. You did recently claim that Claude Giroux's lack of even strength offense made him a defensive liability.

As for my argument that Giroux is better than Staal offensively:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I don't necessarily believe PPG tells the entire story though.

How about offense production per minute of ice time?

Jordan Staal:
Even Strength = 0.02855
Power Play = 0.04281

Claude Giroux:
Even Strength = 0.03218
Power Play = 0.09188

These are numbers based on TOI for even strength and power play while factoring in production across each season and postseason played for each player.
It's really not all that close offensively. Granted, I did say that Staal was better than Giroux defensively, which he is.

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Old
09-29-2010, 05:05 PM
  #7
Garbage Goal
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Kind of laughable that Lappy, a guy who they even mentioned ranked in the top 10 in both PK time and blocked shots, only got an honorable mention. It's a top 10 list concerning PK ability yet a guy who is ranked top 10 in two of the most important PK stats only get an honorable mention?

Won't even get into the other ones.

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Old
09-29-2010, 05:11 PM
  #8
Bort Sampson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
For the record, Jordan Staal had more ES points last year than anyone on the Flyers roster despite his primary linemates being Matt Cooke, Tyler Kennedy, Bill Guerin, Chris Kunitz and Mike Rupp (source, Dobber Hockey) not to mention he has size, speed and is an excellent faceoff guy. He's super overhyped! I guess this pertains more to the debate of Shafer attempting to claim that Giroux was better than Staal which was entertaining, sorry for going OT.



Richards not being on that list is somewhat ridiculous, same for Kesler. I mean, aren't those 2 the best in the league right there?

I'm not saying Staal is overhyped, but considering the defensive coverage given to Crosby and Malkin's lines, it's not exactly far-fetched to see the third-line center racking up a good number of points against lesser defensemen.

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Old
09-29-2010, 05:17 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
I'm not saying Staal is overhyped, but considering the defensive coverage given to Crosby and Malkin's lines, it's not exactly far-fetched to see the third-line center racking up a good number of points against lesser defensemen.
Bingo. Staal is living in a world where he constantly see the Krajicek's, Walker's, Bartulis', and O'Donnell's of the world. His line is dangerous because he is a good player facing (often) inferior competition.

Scratch Cindy or Malkin for a few games and tell me Staal's production then.

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Old
09-29-2010, 05:24 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Bingo. Staal is living in a world where he constantly see the Krajicek's, Walker's, Bartulis', and O'Donnell's of the world. His line is dangerous because he is a good player facing (often) inferior competition.

Scratch Cindy or Malkin for a few games and tell me Staal's production then.
Well apparently they're going to try it. Last I heard they were putting Staal at 2nd line center leaving Malkin on his wing.

Defensively at even strength Staal will be facing stronger competition; roughly the same competition he faces while on the PK. Offensively he will get more help from Malkin, but he's going to get a LOT more pressure from opposing defenses. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

I'm not all that concerned. All I know is that it makes their third line into fodder for one of our top 3 lines.

I hope it happens and Staal gets his shot.

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Old
09-29-2010, 05:26 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
I'm not saying Staal is overhyped, but considering the defensive coverage given to Crosby and Malkin's lines, it's not exactly far-fetched to see the third-line center racking up a good number of points against lesser defensemen.
You could literally say the exact same thing for Giroux....except the production wasn't there.

Also, while I use caution with this stat, Staal's Corsi QualComp was higher than Crosby's and Malkin's (2nd highest on the team) and his CORSI relative QualCOmp was nearly double Crosby's and triple Malkin's. I mean, Staal is an excellent defensive player, Pitt matches him up against Carter when we play them and I bet they do the same against a lot of other teams as well.

Of course, that is a bit skewed by the fact that Malkin blew ass at ES last year and obviously Crosby is much better than Staal, but I do think Staal is a really, really good player and a very, very underrated guy in the league.

He'll never be a PPG guy, but I see him becoming a premier player in the league when he gets the chance, I think he's already one of the best 2-way guys out there.

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Old
09-29-2010, 05:36 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
You could literally say the exact same thing for Giroux....except the production wasn't there.
Well yes, you could say the same thing about Giroux.

And also, Giroux's even strength production per minute of ice time is above Staal's. So saying the production isn't there is a bit alarming.

Also, just to show how much better Richards' is than both, I'm pretty sure that even though Richards' even strength production per minute of ice time is around that same area (maybe a little higher than both), he's facing significantly more than double their QUALCOMPs, seeing as how Giroux's and Staal's QUALCOMPs for this past year are roughly the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Also, while I use caution with this stat, Staal's Corsi QualComp was higher than Crosby's and Malkin's (2nd highest on the team) and his CORSI relative QualCOmp was nearly double Crosby's and triple Malkin's. I mean, Staal is an excellent defensive player, Pitt matches him up against Carter when we play them and I bet they do the same against a lot of other teams as well.
Except going by QUALCOMP, which is particularly created for that reason, Staal is not facing the other team's best competition. 0.44 is substantial compared to other players', but he's not facing the same competition as Crosby.

I actually believe Malkin had the lowest QUALCOMP.

Note: QUALCOMP includes defensemen, not just forward lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Of course, that is a bit skewed by the fact that Malkin blew ass at ES last year and obviously Crosby is much better than Staal, but I do think Staal is a really, really good player and a very, very underrated guy in the league.
A lot of our players had a down year at EV just like Malkin.

I think Staal is significantly overrated. How many top 10 lists do you see him on? It's getting absurd. He even placed 3rd in the Selke without facing the highest competition among centers on his team. Granted, that's not a determining factor for defensive play, but it needs to be mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
He'll never be a PPG guy, but I see him becoming a premier player in the league when he gets the chance, I think he's already one of the best 2-way guys out there.
He's already one of the better 2-way guys in the league and probably fairly easily a top 10 defensive forward.

I become very skeptical and annoyed when he is included among or often ranked above other players who are better than him defensively and better than him offensively.

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Old
09-29-2010, 05:40 PM
  #13
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ALOT of people think Betts is the BEST PK forward in the NHL. Well atleast defensively with faceoffs.

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Old
09-29-2010, 05:48 PM
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Wow, this list is terrible. Really, really terrible

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09-29-2010, 05:55 PM
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The sad thing is whoever wrote this article probably believes its true.

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09-29-2010, 05:56 PM
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At least Kesler received an 'Honorable Mentions'.

No Datsyuk, Toews, Richards, or Bergeron on their list (or as HMs) is hilarious.

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09-29-2010, 06:21 PM
  #17
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Shafer, you might not want to try to use advanced stats seeing as you don't see the difference between QUALCOMP (****** stat because it only relies on goals ) and Corsi QUALCOMP (not perfect, but much better because it relies on shots).

http://4thlineblog.com/2010-articles...the-water.html

Now this guy gives Crosby a lot of (deserved) credit for his .5 at the time. Corsi Rel QoC passes the eyeball test pretty well, for instance, Mike Richards was our best ES player last year according to it which makes sense because that was true. Staal's CORSI QualComp was a .903 which is very strong, higher than Richards' (who I thought played pretty well last year at ES considering our circus) and certainly much higher than Crosby's. It's not a perfect test because it still doesn't quite quantify the absolute ****tiness of Crosby's linemates for example and obviously you'd take Crosby over Staal every day of the week and twice on Sunday, but it's an interesting stat that shows that Staal really was at a very high level. I mean, I think he was in the top-35 in the NHL in ES points and again, that's with the Cooke/Guerin/Kennedy platter.

I take Staal's ceiling over any forward we have besides Richards, Carter and maaaayyybbeee JVR (too early to tell).

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09-29-2010, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
At least Kesler received an 'Honorable Mentions'.

No Datsyuk, Toews, Richards, or Bergeron on their list (or as HMs) is hilarious.
Damn, the Bergeron one is almost worse than Richards considering Bergeron dominates FOs.

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09-29-2010, 06:22 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
At least Kesler received an 'Honorable Mentions'.

No Datsyuk, Toews, Richards, or Bergeron on their list (or as HMs) is hilarious.
Why does Datsyuk deserve to get mentioned as a top PK forward?

He only had 44 seconds of PK time per game last year, good for 8th among forwards on his team. Wouldn't such a fantastic PKer be trusted to kill more than half as much penalty time as Drew Miller or Patrick Eaves?

Looks like a few people are confusing defensive play for PK ability...they aren't the same thing.

And for the record, Betts should've placed much higher.

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09-29-2010, 06:25 PM
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Richards has a friggin NHl record for 5 on 3 SHGs

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09-29-2010, 06:29 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Why does Datsyuk deserve to get mentioned as a top PK forward?

He only had 44 seconds of PK time per game last year, good for 8th among forwards on his team. Wouldn't such a fantastic PKer be trusted to kill more than half as much penalty time as Drew Miller or Patrick Eaves?

Looks like a few people are confusing defensive play for PK ability...they aren't the same thing.
Fair enough, but his time on the PK doesn't necessarily mean he's an inferior penalty killer to Eaves or Helm.

If I'm Detroit, I'd rather Helm and Eaves kill penalties, if they're competent, than Datsyuk. Minutes are key, especially in the regular season, and I don't want to have my best player logging too many minutes penalty killing.

I believe that Richards is a better penalty killer than Betts, but I'd much rather have Betts log more time on the PK. Jeff Carter is a decent penalty killer, too, but the addition of Betts reduced Carter's PK time... and I'm happy about that.

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Old
09-29-2010, 06:38 PM
  #22
Garbage Goal
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I take Staal's ceiling over any forward we have besides Richards, Carter and maaaayyybbeee JVR (too early to tell).
Wow.

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Old
09-29-2010, 06:44 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Fair enough, but his time on the PK doesn't necessarily mean he's an inferior penalty killer to Eaves or Helm.

If I'm Detroit, I'd rather Helm and Eaves kill penalties, if they're competent, than Datsyuk. Minutes are key, especially in the regular season, and I don't want to have my best player logging too many minutes penalty killing.

I believe that Richards is a better penalty killer than Betts, but I'd much rather have Betts log more time on the PK. Jeff Carter is a decent penalty killer, too, but the addition of Betts reduced Carter's PK time... and I'm happy about that.
That's fine, but I don't think we should make assumptions about how a player would do if given more time.

To be a top PKer, one should presumably spend a significant amount of time there, if we want a reasonable sample size to go on. But the truth is that Datsyuk has never been more than the #5 option among forwards on the penalty kill for the Wings. That's 2 whole two-man units ahead of him, even in his most prolific PK season.

He's a great defensive player, and he's the best takeaway artist in the game. What he's not is a top PK forward.

As for the rest of this thread concerning Corsi and ES production etc....I'm not sure how that applies to one's PK ability. Things look like they've gotten a little off the tracks.

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09-29-2010, 06:45 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Wow.
Eh, who would you make an argument for outside of that?

Giroux - Maybe, but Staal is such a beat defensively I think it makes up for Roo's offensive advantage. Plus, if Giroux's ceiling is 75 points and Staal's is 60-65, how much are you really losing offensively?

Hartnell - No.

Briere - No.

Zherdev - No.

Leino - No.

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Old
09-29-2010, 06:47 PM
  #25
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Damn, the Bergeron one is almost worse than Richards considering Bergeron dominates FOs.
This is the most correct thing you've said (that I've seen) in forever.

Richards is better than Bergeron defensively, but man that's another huge omission.

You want an underrated player? That'd be Bergeron.

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