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Old
09-30-2010, 03:00 PM
  #251
Barbara Underhill
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I don't think the argument is whether or not Dubinsky is a good player or not and I think the 3rd liner bit has been over played by his defenders.

I don't consider him a 3rd liner more like a 2b player. Most of us who have speculated on his return or the acquisition of Weiss and the benefit he may or may not have over Dubinsky have brought up the question of whether or not Dubinsky has hit his ceiling or will he meet the 65pt potential so many of you see in him.

It's an honest question, of course you're not allowed to ask those around here when it comes to the fan favorites.

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09-30-2010, 03:04 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
i gotta be honest, i know nothing about brassard other than what i see on the stat sheet...anyone care to tell me why hes so great? numbers dont look all that impressive.

Skilled center, with #1 upside. Why would Columbus trade him? It's Columbus.

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Originally Posted by TrojanRanger View Post

I'm not a fan of Brassard either. If Dubi were to be moved in a package for Brassard I'd be pretty pissed. I'm fine with moving him for the right guy and Brassard is not that IMO.
I'm not sure where that entered the conversation. Again, according to someone on another board, who lives in Ohio, Aaron Portzline, the CBJ beat writer for the Columbus Post-Dispatch, disclosed that Sather reportedly offered Girardi, (whom Columbus likes a lot), straight up for Brassard. Howson counter-offered Filatov and a 4th for Girardi and a first. As Zippy said yesterday, the Rangers and Blue Jackets are still talking.

The Rangers like Brassard a lot, and trading for him would fit the philosophy of building the core, as Tortorella has discussed.

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09-30-2010, 03:06 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Tube Sock View Post
I don't think the argument is whether or not Dubinsky is a good player or not and I think the 3rd liner bit has been over played by his defenders.

I don't consider him a 3rd liner more like a 2b player. Most of us who have speculated on his return or the acquisition of Weiss and the benefit he may or may not have over Dubinsky have brought up the question of whether or not Dubinsky has hit his ceiling or will he meet the 65pt potential so many of you see in him.

It's an honest question, of course you're not allowed to ask those around here when it comes to the fan favorites.
So, if people disagree with your argument, you are a victim?

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09-30-2010, 03:15 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
So, if people disagree with your argument, you are a victim?
It has nothing to do with me, no I don't feel like a victim I think it's quite clear I could give two ***** about others views of me. I don't reside in a bubble nor do I view the world as unfair. It was a blanket statement in regards to numerous threads where people have speculated on Staal, Callahan, Dubinsky and for some strange reason Lundqvist. What I am saying is let's take a step back and treat speculation as speculation without jumping down each others throats etc... These boards are a great place to talk hockey but we're all guilty of getting a little bent out of shape.

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Old
09-30-2010, 03:16 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
Skilled center, with #1 upside. Why would Columbus trade him? It's Columbus.



I'm not sure where that entered the conversation. Again, according to someone on another board, who lives in Ohio, Aaron Portzline, the CBJ beat writer for the Columbus Post-Dispatch, disclosed that Sather reportedly offered Girardi, (whom Columbus likes a lot), straight up for Brassard. Howson counter-offered Filatov and a 4th for Girardi and a first. As Zippy said yesterday, the Rangers and Blue Jackets are still talking.

The Rangers like Brassard a lot, and trading for him would fit the philosophy of building the core, as Tortorella has discussed.
Fair enough... I'll freely admit that the people making these decisions know more about hockey than I ever will, so if they like him enough to get him, I'll live with it.

LOL at their counter proposal. I wouldn't mind getting Filatov, but Girardi and a first?

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09-30-2010, 03:17 PM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tube Sock View Post
I don't think the argument is whether or not Dubinsky is a good player or not and I think the 3rd liner bit has been over played by his defenders.

I don't consider him a 3rd liner more like a 2b player. Most of us who have speculated on his return or the acquisition of Weiss and the benefit he may or may not have over Dubinsky have brought up the question of whether or not Dubinsky has hit his ceiling or will he meet the 65pt potential so many of you see in him.

It's an honest question, of course you're not allowed to ask those around here when it comes to the fan favorites.
I think the point the Dubi defenders are trying to make is that while some people think he has already hit his ceiling (and therefore should be traded), others think that he has a lot more potential left (and therefore shouldn't be traded).

As for your point about Weiss...and something I responded to earlier (idk if you saw it or not...no biggie), but we can't just run a team of small finess guys out there. We need guys like Dubi who can score AND bring a physical presence.

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09-30-2010, 03:19 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Tube Sock View Post
It has nothing to do with me, no I don't feel like a victim I think it's quite clear I could give two ***** about others views of me. I don't reside in a bubble nor do I view the world as unfair. It was a blanket statement in regards to numerous threads where people have speculated on Staal, Callahan, Dubinsky and for some strange reason Lundqvist. What I am saying is let's take a step back and treat speculation as speculation without jumping down each others throats etc... These boards are a great place to talk hockey but we're all guilty of getting a little bent out of shape.

Fair enough...the last sentence of your post just struck me as "woe is me". AFAIC, concerned, people can ask whatever question they want. I try to stay away from the generalizations of the board, (can't say that I always do.)

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09-30-2010, 03:24 PM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtrap View Post
I think the point the Dubi defenders are trying to make is that while some people think he has already hit his ceiling (and therefore should be traded), others think that he has a lot more potential left (and therefore shouldn't be traded).

As for your point about Weiss...and something I responded to earlier (idk if you saw it or not...no biggie), but we can't just run a team of small finess guys out there. We need guys like Dubi who can score AND bring a physical presence.
Adding one more player and maybe not Weiss (his name was brought up so I used him) that is a little smaller won't turn this into a team of midgets. The team has gotten larger each year and although I do appreciate that part of Dubinsky's game he is somewhat inconsistent with it.

So let's ignore names for the mean time and say would you trade Dubinsky in a package for a 70-75pt player that is a tad smaller?

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Old
09-30-2010, 03:25 PM
  #259
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can you not delete posts anymore?


Last edited by BrandNewDream: 09-30-2010 at 03:31 PM. Reason: i was wrong
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Old
09-30-2010, 03:26 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by dtrap View Post
I think the point the Dubi defenders are trying to make is that while some people think he has already hit his ceiling (and therefore should be traded), others think that he has a lot more potential left (and therefore shouldn't be traded).

As for your point about Weiss...and something I responded to earlier (idk if you saw it or not...no biggie), but we can't just run a team of small finess guys out there. We need guys like Dubi who can score AND bring a physical presence.
This is a point I'd like to expand upon. I have no problem trading youth in deals to bring back the type of players the Rangers lack. The Rangers have plenty of D-men, and it's an area of strength. They are deep on LW, so players like Grachev and even Werek or Hagelin could be used in the right deal. I just have a nard time trading pieces that they can't readily replace within the organization, such as Dubinsky, DZ and Staal. Tell me you getting an actual upgrade on the player your dealing - Jack Johnson for MDZ, or Rick Nash for Dubi, and I make the deal. (I'm not just talking one-for-one deals.)

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09-30-2010, 03:27 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
Any of these and I'm supper happy...

To FLA
White
To NYR
Robak

To CLB
Eminger
To NYR
#4

To PHX
Gilroy
To NYR
Gormley or Tik

Staal, Girardi, Tank, Sauer, Rozi, MDZ are all keepers IMO, Gilroy is the #7 Dman. Eminger is waived and McD can spend some time in Hartford learning the pro game.

I'd freak if the Rangers landed Brassard...totally freak out.
It's likely that none of those would happen. Robak for White? Gilroy for Gormley? You've got to be joking.

If you mean Eminger for a 4th round pick, yeah, that's possible. And maybe Gilroy for Tikhonov.

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09-30-2010, 03:29 PM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tube Sock View Post
Adding one more player and maybe not Weiss (his name was brought up so I used him) that is a little smaller won't turn this into a team of midgets. The team has gotten larger each year and although I do appreciate that part of Dubinsky's game he is somewhat inconsistent with it.

So let's ignore names for the mean time and say would you trade Dubinsky in a package for a 70-75pt player that is a tad smaller?
It all depends. You just can't throw a point total out there. Is the 70 point guy Corey Perry? Then yes. Is the 70 point guy Tomas Plekanec? Then no. I don't think you can just go off a guys point total. There are so many other factors you have to consider.

Would I like to see Weiss between Gabs and Fro? Hells yes I would. But maybe at the cost of Sauer, not Dubi. It's like Jas said. Why trade a good player at a spot where you aren't deep. Why not trade from a position of strength?

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09-30-2010, 03:30 PM
  #263
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In my fantasy pool I had the first waiver pick and got Giguerre then moved him for Loui Erickson, Needless to say he was desperate for a starting goalie

Now I am offering Frolik and Sutter for Weiss. I have a deep team. I really hope he get traded to the Rangers if I get him,haha

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09-30-2010, 03:31 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
Fair enough...the last sentence of your post just struck me as "woe is me". AFAIC, concerned, people can ask whatever question they want. I try to stay away from the generalizations of the board, (can't say that I always do.)
Pssh I have no right having a woe is me attitude lol. I dish it and I take it, sometimes gracefully other times a bit defensively. But for the sake of the conversation we have going here I say let's just enjoy the discussion I have seen a lot of valid points that got lost in rants today lol.

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Old
09-30-2010, 03:32 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Vitto79 View Post
In my fantasy pool I had the first waiver pick and got Giguerre then moved him for Loui Erickson, Needless to say he was desperate for a starting goalie

Now I am offering Frolik and Sutter for Weiss. I have a deep team. I really hope he get traded to the Rangers if I get him,haha
What does this have to do with anything?

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09-30-2010, 03:40 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by dtrap View Post
It all depends. You just can't throw a point total out there. Is the 70 point guy Corey Perry? Then yes. Is the 70 point guy Tomas Plekanec? Then no. I don't think you can just go off a guys point total. There are so many other factors you have to consider.

Would I like to see Weiss between Gabs and Fro? Hells yes I would. But maybe at the cost of Sauer, not Dubi. It's like Jas said. Why trade a good player at a spot where you aren't deep. Why not trade from a position of strength?
Humor me if you will, theoretically speaking since this is speculation. When you boil it down does Dubinsky's physical play hold the same weight as an additional 20-25 pts?

I agree on dealing from a position of strength however a 1st line center is still a big need. Ideally I'd love to get a more productive winger out of the deal for scraps but I think a player like Dubinsky would have to be involved. What does that leave us? Frolov, Prospal, and Avery as our top 3 LW's? Not bad considering what we have in the pipe line.

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09-30-2010, 03:42 PM
  #267
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well..considering that Dubi did play the majority of his minutes as a first liner, you would like to see 1st line production.
From looking at the goals of Dubinsky/Gaborik/Prospal/Christensen it seems Dubinsky played with Gaborik for 3 blocks of time.

The first 12-13 games of the season. I actually remember the game they switched the lines up, it was the loss to the Isles at the end of October. He scored 9 points, but 8 of them came in the first 8 games. Then the line (and the team) hit a wall.

A span of 15-18 games from the end of December to the middle of January. He scored 17 points in that time. I think it was the 6-0 beatdown the Rangers took on January 23rd that Tortorella lost his mind and changed everything. That was also the start of a 5 game losing streak.

Parts of the last 12-15 games of the season, including the last handful of games. I know Dubie ended the season with Gabs but I don't remember when they moved him back. He played with Jokinen through the end of February and pops up on the score sheet with a few random people like Parenteau/Prust/Avery but I am not sure who he played the majority of his games with. In the last 12/15 games he had 9 points, 8 in his last 10.

So conservatively we are looking at 35 points in roughly 46 games on the top line, which equals out to 60-65 points over an 82 game schedule. You could probably eliminate some games to push him closer to PP when playing with Gaborik, but I think this is honest enough. I really do not remember him playing 46 out of his 69 games on the top line, but I could be mistaken.

This of course does not factor in that he did not play on the first PP unit, just that he played with the Rangers best player. Its also impossible to factor in things like missing parts of camp and getting hurt so I just wont bother.

Anyway I would say he put up legit first line numbers when given the opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
personally i think Dubi is a DAMN GOOD 2nd liner, borderline elite 2nd liner. thats where he should probably play....or put him on the first line, and move Frolov to the 2nd line, and have a super strong 1-2 punch.
Couldn't agree more. Frolov has looked excellent with Anisimov and they should most definitely play together, preferably with a winger that is a playmaker. Maybe Prospal if he can play both wings.

Dubinsky-Stepan/EC-Gaborik
Frolov-Anisimov-Prospal
Avery-Kennedy/Drury-Callahan
Fedetenko/Prust/Boogaard/Boyle/etc

Just a thought.

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09-30-2010, 04:20 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Tube Sock View Post
Adding one more player and maybe not Weiss (his name was brought up so I used him) that is a little smaller won't turn this into a team of midgets. The team has gotten larger each year and although I do appreciate that part of Dubinsky's game he is somewhat inconsistent with it.

So let's ignore names for the mean time and say would you trade Dubinsky in a package for a 70-75pt player that is a tad smaller?
Actually adding Weiss (for Dubinsky) does make the Rangers a much less tougher, less physical team and it makes them more passive and incapable of winning as many hard fought physical battles and more incapable of sticking up for each other and defending themselves.

Just because a player is bigger, doesn't mean he's physically tough and combative.

Gabbey is bigger than Gomez. But he's not physically tough or combative.

Frolov can play a physical game and he can be a good battler. But that aspect of his game is way more inconsistent than Dubinsky's game has ever been. And he certainly will not be there dropping the gloves or jumping Crosby when Douchey Crosby takes another cheap shot or run at Lundqvist or any other Ranger finesse player.

Fedo is similar to Frolov in this aspect. He has been known to drop the gloves on occassion, but he'll get his head handed to him more times than not. And he's definetly more inconsistent than Dubinsky in his physical/combative game.

See, this is what cracks me up.

A lot of these guys here love to preach a soft finesse player roster. They hate Boogard type players and they don't want Dubinsky type players. But they're the first ones screaming bloody foul and whining when some d**chebag jumps Gaborik and starts pummeling him. They're the first ones complaining that there was no one there to defend the Star.

It's just plain stupid. They expect regular players to be the ones to jump in and fight the likes of Carcillo and other goons. These people live in a dreamworld.

Who's going to beat the piss out of Mike Richards when he takes yet another cheap and dirty run at one of our finesse players? Who? Frolov? Fedor? Drury?

Please!

Dubinsky should be a life-long Ranger for simply beating the snot out of Mike Richards, once or twice a season. That alone should earn him a banner in MSG

Make up you r friggin minds.

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09-30-2010, 04:30 PM
  #269
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There's a reason Derek Brasssard might be available and it's not a flattering one. After being picked as the 6th player in the 2006 entry draft, he turned pro a year later and had a very good half season with the Syracuse Crunch of the AHL. He missed two months with a broken jaw. He started the next with Columbus and was off to a great start (10-15-25) in 31 games before dislocating his shoulder in a fight with James Neal. That summer the BJs gave him a huge contract ($12.8MM over 4 years begining this year) despite the injury. And then he proceeded to stink it up last year (9-27-36) in 79 games. Players get seriously hurt and don't always come back at the same level (remember Tomas Kloucek?) A year ago he was a big part of the BJs future. Available now? Something is very wrong with that picture.

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09-30-2010, 04:31 PM
  #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeds2StepOpus View Post
Actually adding Weiss (for Dubinsky) does make the Rangers a much less tougher, less physical team and it makes them more passive and incapable of winning as many hard fought physical battles and more incapable of sticking up for each other and defending themselves.


Just because a player is bigger, doesn't mean he's physically tough and combative.
Not sure where you are going with this you do realize Weiss is smaller than Dubinsky right? I never said anything about that other than the fact that replacing one player doesn't turn this team into a midget squad a la Montreal.

Quote:
See, this is what cracks me up.

A lot of these guys here love to preach a soft finesse player roster. They hate Boogard type players and they don't want Dubinsky type players. But they're the first ones screaming bloody foul and whining when some d**chebag jumps Gaborik and starts pummeling him. They're the first ones complaining that there was no one there to defend the Star.

It's just plain stupid. They expect regular players to be the ones to jump in and fight the likes of Carcillo and other goons. These people live in a dreamworld.

Who's going to beat the piss out of Mike Richards when he takes yet another cheap and dirty run at one of our finesse players? Who? Frolov? Fedor? Drury?

Please!

Dubinsky should be a life-long Ranger for simply beating the snot out of Mike Richards, once or twice a season. That alone should earn him a banner in MSG

Make up you r friggin minds.
Dubinsky only fought Richards once last year in fact he only had two fights last year. Halpern and Richards... Weird how people say he fights all the time. His physicallity may be his most over rated aspect. I mean come on. He doesn't use his body nearly as much as he could and he was 8th on the team in hits, and if you pro rate that stat he would have hypothetically finished 5th ahead of Avery by 2 and Boyle by 3. On a funny side note Kotalik threw just as many hits per game as Dubinsky did in his time with the Rangers...

I am not one of those who likes a soft roster, However I think 25pts on the board replaces Dubinsky's physical play hands down.


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09-30-2010, 04:33 PM
  #271
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There's a reason Derek Brasssard might be available and it's not a flattering one. After being picked as the 6th player in the 2006 entry draft, he turned pro a year later and had a very good half season with the Syracuse Crunch of the AHL. He missed two months with a broken jaw. He started the next with Columbus and was off to a great start (10-15-25) in 31 games before dislocating his shoulder in a fight with James Neal. That summer the BJs gave him a huge contract ($12.8MM over 4 years begining this year) despite the injury. And then he proceeded to stink it up last year (9-27-36) in 79 games. Players get seriously hurt and don't always come back at the same level (remember Tomas Kloucek?) A year ago he was a big part of the BJs future. Available now? Something is very wrong with that picture.

Yeah this is exactly why I'm wary about Brassard. He could have the tools to be a great center, but he hasn't reached any of that potential and has a big contract.

Though this is Columbus we're talking about and they sucked last year

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09-30-2010, 04:34 PM
  #272
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Mike Sauer for Viktor Tikhonov or Brett MacLean.
we need more forwards? please keep Sauer Slats!

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09-30-2010, 04:35 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Jeds2StepOpus View Post
Actually adding Weiss (for Dubinsky) does make the Rangers a much less tougher, less physical team and it makes them more passive and incapable of winning as many hard fought physical battles and more incapable of sticking up for each other and defending themselves.

Just because a player is bigger, doesn't mean he's physically tough and combative.

Gabbey is bigger than Gomez. But he's not physically tough or combative.

Frolov can play a physical game and he can be a good battler. But that aspect of his game is way more inconsistent than Dubinsky's game has ever been. And he certainly will not be there dropping the gloves or jumping Crosby when Douchey Crosby takes another cheap shot or run at Lundqvist or any other Ranger finesse player.

Fedo is similar to Frolov in this aspect. He has been known to drop the gloves on occassion, but he'll get his head handed to him more times than not. And he's definetly more inconsistent than Dubinsky in his physical/combative game.

See, this is what cracks me up.

A lot of these guys here love to preach a soft finesse player roster. They hate Boogard type players and they don't want Dubinsky type players. But they're the first ones screaming bloody foul and whining when some d**chebag jumps Gaborik and starts pummeling him. They're the first ones complaining that there was no one there to defend the Star.

It's just plain stupid. They expect regular players to be the ones to jump in and fight the likes of Carcillo and other goons. These people live in a dreamworld.

Who's going to beat the piss out of Mike Richards when he takes yet another cheap and dirty run at one of our finesse players? Who? Frolov? Fedor? Drury?

Please!

Dubinsky should be a life-long Ranger for simply beating the snot out of Mike Richards, once or twice a season. That alone should earn him a banner in MSG

Make up you r friggin minds.
Would you rather have Dubi fight richards twice a year or actually have a team capable of winning a lot of games? This entire post just makes you sound like a Dubi fanboy.

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09-30-2010, 04:44 PM
  #274
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Would you rather have Dubi fight richards twice a year or actually have a team capable of winning a lot of games? This entire post just makes you sound like a Dubi fanboy.
I'd rather keep Dubi cause I don't believe that a 60 point player makes enough of a difference for this team to justify moving additional assets with Dubinsky to get him.

Knowing all the while that Dubinsky's progression trail is on pace to equal that of Weiss's at teh same age.

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09-30-2010, 04:46 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I'd rather keep Dubi cause I don't believe that a 60 point player makes enough of a difference for this team to justify moving additional assets with Dubinsky to get him.

Knowing all the while that Dubinsky's progression trail is on pace to equal that of Weiss's at teh same age.
I'm down with trading Dubi but not for Weiss. I woulda considered it more for Horton but he already got send packing. Dman + 1st + 3rd for Horton. Would Weiss cost more or less than that?

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