Eh, who would you make an argument for outside of that?
Giroux - Maybe, but Staal is such a beat defensively I think it makes up for Roo's offensive advantage. Plus, if Giroux's ceiling is 75 points and Staal's is 60-65, how much are you really losing offensively?
Except Giroux's not bad defensively. Right now, he's better than JVR defensively and better than JVR offensively.
For you to include JVR and not Giroux, it throws up a HUGE red flag.
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh
Hartnell - No.
Correct.
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh
Briere - No.
Briere is so scary good offensively that I don't even think you can claim that Staal is the better player right now.
Staal having a 50 point season is awesome. Briere having a 50 point season is a catastrophe.
Briere and Zherdev are also scary bad defensively (interesting that Briere's relative QoC was near the bottom of our team last year despite his offense) and defense wins championships.
Also, Giroux is better than JVR now, but JVR has a much higher ceiling.
In fact, based on line combinations (if he plays with Richards basically, don't really want him near Carter), I'd bet JVR has a better season than Giroux this year.
That's fine, but I don't think we should make assumptions about how a player would do if given more time.
To be a top PKer, one should presumably spend a significant amount of time there, if we want a reasonable sample size to go on. But the truth is that Datsyuk has never been more than the #5 option among forwards on the penalty kill for the Wings. That's 2 whole two-man units ahead of him, even in his most prolific PK season.
He's a great defensive player, and he's the best takeaway artist in the game. What he's not is a top PK forward.
Again, fair enough.
What about the guys above him on the penalty killing depth chart make them better than Datsyuk, though? He's the best faceoff guy on the team, the best takeaway guy on the team, has top defensive awareness and keeps the opposition defensemen wary... all attributes that should get him a nod as one of the league's best PK forwards.
What about the guys above him on the penalty killing depth chart make them better than Datsyuk, though? He's the best faceoff guy on the team, the best takeaway guy on the team, has top defensive awareness and keeps the opposition defensemen wary... all attributes that should get him a nod as one of the league's best PK forwards.
I believe he deserves and HM at minimum.
Until you do it, you haven't done it. That's basically what it comes down to.
Datsyuk was essentially getting the tail-end of opposition PPs to keep them honest last year, while the brunt of the PK work was going to 7 other forwards on the team. Could Datsyuk excel as a regular PKer if given the opportunity? Probably. Does he deserve the distinction of being called a top PKer when he's been relied on so little to this point? I sure wouldn't say so.
Let's credit the people who've actually shown they can handle a significant PK workload before we start lauding them as being tops in the league. I mean, Crosby's the best faceoff man on his team, the 2nd best takeaway guy on his team, has good defensive awareness and certainly keeps the opposition defensemen wary...but I wouldn't call him one of the best PKers on the Pens.
Until you do it, you haven't done it. That's basically what it comes down to.
Datsyuk was essentially getting the tail-end of opposition PPs to keep them honest last year, while the brunt of the PK work was going to 7 other forwards on the team. Could Datsyuk excel as a regular PKer if given the opportunity? Probably. Does he deserve the distinction of being called a top PKer when he's been relied on so little to this point? I sure wouldn't say so.
This goes back to my argument that Datsyuk's ice time is more important at even strength and on the powerplay than on the penalty kill. He gets enough ice on the PK for one to notice his effectiveness there. He's a great defensive forward and excels when used in a penalty killing role. He has done it and he has earned it.
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Let's credit the people who've actually shown they can handle a significant PK workload before we start lauding them as being tops in the league. I mean, Crosby's the best faceoff man on his team, the 2nd best takeaway guy on his team, has good defensive awareness and certainly keeps the opposition defensemen wary...but I wouldn't call him one of the best PKers on the Pens.
Crosby has the potential to be one of the league's best penalty killers. His defensive awareness improves with every season and he already is an effective takeaway guy because he can read the play so well. The difference is that Datsyuk has the best defensive awareness of all forwards in the league and is one of the best players in the league at taking away pucks from the opposition. The Crosby comparison is currently unfair.
Blair Betts is, in my opinion, the best penalty killing forward in the NHL. He just doesn't score SH goals and doesn't make diving shot blocks. It's kind of like how one outfielder gets credit for being a gold glover for making great diving catches, while another outfielder never had to dive because he is superior in positioning and footwork. Blair Betts is absolutely outstanding at cutting down both shooting and passing lanes, as well as positioning himself between the puck and the goal.
Not sure why people are getting bent out of shape over this, It looks like it's purely statistical. Blues are the best PK, McClement plays the most minutes, therefore he's the best PKing forward. It's stupid but I think we can all agree that this it what happens when stats are the only thing used.
For the record, Jordan Staal had more ES points last year than anyone on the Flyers roster despite his primary linemates being Matt Cooke, Tyler Kennedy, Bill Guerin, Chris Kunitz and Mike Rupp (source, Dobber Hockey) not to mention he has size, speed and is an excellent faceoff guy. He's super overhyped! I guess this pertains more to the debate of Shafer attempting to claim that Giroux was better than Staal which was entertaining, sorry for going OT.
Richards not being on that list is somewhat ridiculous, same for Kesler. I mean, aren't those 2 the best in the league right there?
that's because claude giroux is better than jordan staal.
This goes back to my argument that Datsyuk's ice time is more important at even strength and on the powerplay than on the penalty kill. He gets enough ice on the PK for one to notice his effectiveness there. He's a great defensive forward and excels when used in a penalty killing role. He has done it and he has earned it.
Disagree on both counts. 44 seconds isn't enough to designate a player as tops in a given role (consider that this time would be split up into smaller increments - it's not like he plays one 44 second PK shift per game), and if he were as superior in that role as you suspect he could accommodate more PK time well enough.
Babcock isn't shy about piling the SH minutes on a 40 year old Lidstrom, despite his value at ES and on the PP.
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Crosby has the potential to be one of the league's best penalty killers. His defensive awareness improves with every season and he already is an effective takeaway guy because he can read the play so well. The difference is that Datsyuk has the best defensive awareness of all forwards in the league and is one of the best players in the league at taking away pucks from the opposition. The Crosby comparison is currently unfair.
I was comparing Crosby relative to his team, as you did with Datsyuk.
I feel as if this argument isn't going anywhere and neither of us will be convinced by the other. That being said...
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes
Disagree on both counts. 44 seconds isn't enough to designate a player as tops in a given role (consider that this time would be split up into smaller increments - it's not like he plays one 44 second PK shift per game), and if he were as superior in that role as you suspect he could accommodate more PK time well enough.
Babcock isn't shy about piling the SH minutes on a 40 year old Lidstrom, despite his value at ES and on the PP.
There are competent players on the roster that allow the coaching staff the benefit of not having to rely heavily on Datsyuk for PK duty.
The defensemen are another story altogether. You usually aren't dressing more than 6 defensemen; there aren't plenty of competent defensemen that you're going to send out on the PK over Lidstrom. Because there are so many forwards, you can afford to dress penalty killing specialists; this doesn't make them better than other players, like Datsyuk, but their worth is in the minutes they will log in this specific role. You don't have that luxury with your defensemen.
I'd give my left testicle to have Jordan Staal on this team. That is all.
I'd give both my testicles to have Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Claude Giroux, Danny Briere, Nikolai Zherdev, James vanRiemsdyk, Scott Hartnell, and Ville Leino as my top 8 and Chris Pronger, Kimmo Timonen, Braydon Coburn, Andrej Meszaros, and Matt Carle as my top 5.
That lineup puts pretty much everyone else to shame, so yeah I'd probably do that de--Oh wait...
In my opinion, we have four centers better than Jordan Staal. If Pittsburgh has two, then good for them.
I'd give both my testicles to have Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Claude Giroux, Danny Briere, Nikolai Zherdev, James vanRiemsdyk, Scott Hartnell, and Ville Leino as my top 8 and Chris Pronger, Kimmo Timonen, Braydon Coburn, Andrej Meszaros, and Matt Carle as my top 5.
That lineup puts pretty much everyone else to shame, so yeah I'd probably do that de--Oh wait...
In my opinion, we have four centers better than Jordan Staal. If Pittsburgh has two, then good for them.
Depends what you want. Sure, Briere and Giroux (hasn't yet) might score a bit more than Staal, but they're going to give up a lot more the other way (both should be on the wing in any event). Staal is also 22 with 3 20+ goal seasons on his resume already.
Swap out Staal for Briere/Giroux and create a true two-way third line for this club, and you've instantly improved this team. If Briere isn't scoring at 100 point pace like he was in the playoffs, and slides back to being a -20+ player at center... still think he's better than Staal?
But, then again, we already knew you love everyone on our team more than anyone else. Didn't we, Chris?
Not true. I'd rather have Staal than Briere on this team, but right now Briere is the better player.
In fact, the only four forwards I'd rather have on our team than Staal are Richards, Carter, Giroux, and JVR.
Last three years
150 pts, -25
v.
126 pts, +19
So sure Briere is the better player? A 44 pt swing in +/- is rather demonstrable.
Last year:
Giroux: 16-31-47 -9
Staal: 21-28-49 +19
Now, you could argue that Giroux will get better... but then you run into the problem that they're the same age, so Staal should get better, too. Not only that, Staal is the exact type of style and size that takes longer to develop in the NHL generally... so, he could theoretically get more better. Add in that it sounds like he's going to play a larger role for that team offensively this year, and you could see a real jump in his numbers.
Staal is a much better player than Giroux as of right now all-around. Just brings more to the table and you can do more with him, and is a *ing hammer situationally.
He needs to get better on draws, but that's about the only flaw. In reality, he's going to be an absolute beast of a 2nd line center given where he should probably settle offensively.
The problem with Staal is that he's not a flashy player.
The guy is a defensive monster who scores, but people see the Roo hands and figure that he must be the better player.
Saying he isn't as good as Jordan Staal is not an insult to Giroux in the slightest, it simply means that Jordan Staal is really freaking good and is only going to get better.
