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Old
10-01-2010, 07:31 AM
  #51
SingnBluesOnBroadway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DelZottoFutureNorris View Post
In my honest opinion, we're not as far away from being a contender as some people think. Come up with 1 move (try to keep it as realistic as possible) to make us into a potential contender for this season.

Dubinsky, Anisimov, Rozsival, 1st, 2nd(WSH) for Brad Richards

Frolov Stepan Gaborik
Prospal Richards Zuccarello
Avery Christensen Callahan
Prust Drury Kennedy
Boogard, Boyle

Staal Girardi
Del Zotto Sauer
McDonagh Gilroy
Valentenko

Lundqvist
Biron




or


Dubinsky, Anisimov, Rozsival, 1st, 2nd(WSH) for Lecavalier

Frolov Stepan Gaborik
Prospal Lecavalier Zuccarello
Avery Drury Callahan
Prust Boyle Kennedy
Boogard, Christensen

Staal Girardi
Del Zotto Sauer
McDonagh Gilroy
Valentenko

Lundqvist
Biron
Neither of this deals make the Rangers a contender. And if you're going to trade for a #1 center shouldn't that guy play with your best forward?

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Old
10-01-2010, 07:31 AM
  #52
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funny because I keep seeing people throw Grachev's name into their trade proposals suddenly.
It's called "depth"...if the organization has faith in Dubinsky being a top six LW, believes Kreider will be ready in two years, has additional options such as Werek and Hagelin, they could use Grachev in a deal to fill a weakness. Plus, what if they were to re-sign Frolov at season's end? Grachev may not fit into the long term plans of the organization. Not every prospect in the system will end up being a core player. IMO, Grachev looks more like trade bait than a core piece.

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10-01-2010, 11:23 AM
  #53
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What's funny, is that you could have made this thread every year for the last decade, and the needs would almost always be the same:

- A #1 center in his prime
- Toughness on the back-end
- A true #1 d-man
- Scoring depth

I think we're closer now than we were pre-lockout, but we're counting on a lot of guys developing properly. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's certainly not fool proof.

You could go the traditional Rangers route, and try to flip our prospects for high-end talent, or you could try and target some top-tier prospects from teams that have some spares. Personally, I much prefer the latter.

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10-01-2010, 11:41 AM
  #54
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well, if the rangers make the playoffs. then they are a cup contender. look at philly for example. its possible. people shouldnt be so negative all the time

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10-01-2010, 12:00 PM
  #55
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From where I sit a lot of trades the Rangers have been involved in have turned into crap...and I can go back a long way. Not moving the team forward but actually moving us back wards.

Same with F/A signings.

The grass is rarely greener but the fascination with doing deals remains.

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10-01-2010, 12:12 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by apulsch View Post
well, if the rangers make the playoffs. then they are a cup contender. look at philly for example. its possible. people shouldnt be so negative all the time
Yeah but Philly started the season as a favorite out of the east. Injuries to key pieces is what held them back early on. They weren't an "out from nowhere" group and shouldn't be thought of as one. IMHO.

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10-01-2010, 12:28 PM
  #57
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My favorite part of this thread is you advocate trading for Richards or Lecavalier....yet you still have Stepan as the #1C...why have the "well he might be the #1C down the road so let him learn the job because our talent pool is so thin" on the top line and in both of your proposed line-ups you've got an ACTUAL #1C on the 2nd line....


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10-01-2010, 12:56 PM
  #58
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With all due respect, the two outlined trade proposals make me sick to my stomach.

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Old
10-01-2010, 01:09 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DelZottoFutureNorris View Post
In my honest opinion, we're not as far away from being a contender as some people think. Come up with 1 move (try to keep it as realistic as possible) to make us into a potential contender for this season.

Dubinsky, Anisimov, Rozsival, 1st, 2nd(WSH) for Brad Richards

Frolov Stepan Gaborik
Prospal Richards Zuccarello
Avery Christensen Callahan
Prust Drury Kennedy
Boogard, Boyle

Staal Girardi
Del Zotto Sauer
McDonagh Gilroy
Valentenko

Lundqvist
Biron




or


Dubinsky, Anisimov, Rozsival, 1st, 2nd(WSH) for Lecavalier

Frolov Stepan Gaborik
Prospal Lecavalier Zuccarello
Avery Drury Callahan
Prust Boyle Kennedy
Boogard, Christensen

Staal Girardi
Del Zotto Sauer
McDonagh Gilroy
Valentenko

Lundqvist
Biron
All jokes aside...Both proposals are absolutley terrible and gross overpayment for the players mentioned.

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Old
10-01-2010, 01:18 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by darko View Post
It'll take more than that to make us a contender.

IMO we are #1 center, top-2 D-man and some scoring depth (solid 2nd line RW would help) away from being a contender.
I really don't think we are that far away..

We have scoring depth. We have a elite Winger. We have an elite goalie. All we need is one of the two.. (A #1 center OR a Top pairing D-man).

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Old
10-01-2010, 03:19 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Neither of this deals make the Rangers a contender. And if you're going to trade for a #1 center shouldn't that guy play with your best forward?
Not necessarily. It's a case of diminishing returns. I think we'd get more out of Richards if he didn't play with Gaborik. Having Richards center a different line and make them a legitimate scoring threat is more important than bumping Gaborik's goals total from 42 to 52. We know that Gaborik doesn't need a #1 center to feed him the puck. Christensen could do it. I believe over the course of the year Stepan can do it. I'd rather have Richards help make another line a serious threat instead of loading up all your guns on 1 line. If this were the case, you could still load up at times when you want more offense, but I like the balance this way.

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Old
10-01-2010, 03:21 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Lion Hound View Post
All jokes aside...Both proposals are absolutley terrible and gross overpayment for the players mentioned.
Feel free to enlighten us. If that's "gross overpayment," then what would it take to land either of those players? I'm dying to know.

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10-01-2010, 03:33 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by DelZottoFutureNorris View Post
Feel free to enlighten us. If that's "gross overpayment," then what would it take to land either of those players? I'm dying to know.
Less than that for sure....

One dude has a year left on his contract and the other has a ton of years left with significant money coming his way.


Giving up Dubi, Anisimov, Rozi, a 1st and a 2nd for Richards would be one of the worst trades of all time, and I'm 100% behind bringing Richards in here as early as this season, even if it means having to send Dubi the other way.

Don't even get me started on Vinny. His contract is absurd.

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Old
10-01-2010, 04:33 PM
  #64
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You could probably get Richards for a roster player, an upper level prospect and a pick. Your deals are beyond over payment.

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10-01-2010, 04:36 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by gluvhand View Post
Yeah but Philly started the season as a favorite out of the east. Injuries to key pieces is what held them back early on. They weren't an "out from nowhere" group and shouldn't be thought of as one. IMHO.
Yeah, the reality is if we beat Philly on the last day of the regular season we would have almost certainly been out in the first round. There is no point in comparing us to a team that was a pre-season favorite that had plenty of injuries throughout the year. Plus, we wouldn't have had the same opponents either. Bottom line is we wouldn't have been close to a contender regardless of what people might choose to fantasize about.

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Old
10-01-2010, 04:40 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Tube Sock View Post
You could probably get Richards for a roster player, a upper level prospect and a pick. Your deals are beyond over payment.
Pass me what you're drinking.

What reason does Dallas have to trade their #1 center who had 90 points last season? First of all, they'd probably like to re-sign him for the rest of his career. If not, they're not going to feel pressure to move him until the deadline. We would have to sweeten the deal enough to make them change their minds.

Roster player (Dubinsky), upper level prospect (Anisimov is one year removed from being that and still a rather unknown quantity), and a pick (I proposed a 1st and 2nd.) So you're suggesting almost the same thing, yet mine is "beyond overpayment." Anisimov hasn't proven much at this level. He's still an unknown. With that said, I'd rather move him than Kreider or Stepan. He also certainly has more value than Grachev.

Furthermore, look at what the devils traded for Kovalchuk AT THE DEADLINE. He could've been a rental for a mere 2 months and they still had to give up a king's ransom. In Richards, we're only talking about a guy who OUTSCORED Kovalchuk last season, yet some of you think Dubi, Ani, Rozy, 1st,2nd is MASSIVE OVERPAYMENT ??? It's probably not EVEN enough to make them trade him! Get real!

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10-01-2010, 04:55 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by DelZottoFutureNorris View Post
Pass me what you're drinking.

What reason does Dallas have to trade their #1 center who had 90 points last season? First of all, they'd probably like to re-sign him for the rest of his career. If not, they're not going to feel pressure to move him until the deadline. We would have to sweeten the deal enough to make them change their minds.

Roster player (Dubinsky), upper level prospect (Anisimov is one year removed from being that and still a rather unknown quantity), and a pick (I proposed a 1st and 2nd.) So you're suggesting almost the same thing, yet mine is "beyond overpayment." Anisimov hasn't proven much at this level. He's still an unknown. With that said, I'd rather move him than Kreider or Stepan. He also certainly has more value than Grachev.

Furthermore, look at what the devils traded for Kovalchuk AT THE DEADLINE. He could've been a rental for a mere 2 months and they still had to give up a king's ransom. In Richards, we're only talking about a guy who OUTSCORED Kovalchuk last season, yet some of you think Dubi, Ani, Rozy, 1st,2nd is MASSIVE OVERPAYMENT ??? It's probably not EVEN enough to make them trade him! Get real!

lol wut?

Anisimov is more than a prospect seeing as he's already had a full season of NHL experience (he no longer has rookie eligibility, so that throws that out of the window.) If you think that last season didn't raise his value as a trade chip, then I don't know what to tell you.

Secondly, why the hell would we overpay for Richards now when we can have him for money in July, or wait it out and trade for him at the deadline for less if we really need to (Dallas will most likely be out of it.) Lets say hypothetically that Richards were to be traded now... No one is going to give up those assets for 1 year of a player with a 7.8 mill cap hit. Bob Gainey is no longer a GM in this league.

Lastly, bringing up the Kovalchuk deal is pointless. Hes younger and was essentially the Thrashers franchise. I actually thought the Devils got him on the cheap (it evened out a bit after the penalties this summer.) The price for Richards will probably be something similar to what the Thrashers got for Hossa when he was dealt to the Pens (Armstrong, Esposito and a first IIRC.)

That sounds pretty close to the proposal you're bashing.

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10-01-2010, 04:56 PM
  #68
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Your proposal trumps what the Devils had to pay for Kovalchuk and he has more value at the trade deadline than a Brad Richards....

Besides it being an overpayment. do you really think it's wise for the Rangers to trade Dubinsky and Anisimov, two important players on our depth chart, for an impending UFA who could be had for just money alone in July? Not to mention forfeiting a 1st and 2nd round pick which would effectively hinder our ability to draft players to help supplant the loss of depth by the players being sent the other way in the trade....


Last edited by wolfgaze: 10-01-2010 at 07:35 PM.
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Old
10-01-2010, 04:58 PM
  #69
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Where's JOrts when you need him...

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10-01-2010, 05:05 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DelZottoFutureNorris View Post
Pass me what you're drinking.

What reason does Dallas have to trade their #1 center who had 90 points last season? First of all, they'd probably like to re-sign him for the rest of his career. If not, they're not going to feel pressure to move him until the deadline. We would have to sweeten the deal enough to make them change their minds.

Roster player (Dubinsky), upper level prospect (Anisimov is one year removed from being that and still a rather unknown quantity), and a pick (I proposed a 1st and 2nd.) So you're suggesting almost the same thing, yet mine is "beyond overpayment." Anisimov hasn't proven much at this level. He's still an unknown. With that said, I'd rather move him than Kreider or Stepan. He also certainly has more value than Grachev.

Furthermore, look at what the devils traded for Kovalchuk AT THE DEADLINE. He could've been a rental for a mere 2 months and they still had to give up a king's ransom. In Richards, we're only talking about a guy who OUTSCORED Kovalchuk last season, yet some of you think Dubi, Ani, Rozy, 1st,2nd is MASSIVE OVERPAYMENT ??? It's probably not EVEN enough to make them trade him! Get real!
Do you remember the proposed deals for Heatley? They were less than what you are offering for Richards. You can argue that the Heatley situation was different with his bonus playing a part etc.. But when a player is in his last year and assuming this deal probably wouldn't get made until later in the season when both teams have a feel for what they might be able to do in the post season then you are grossly over paying for Richards.

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Old
10-01-2010, 06:38 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by DelZottoFutureNorris View Post
Feel free to enlighten us. If that's "gross overpayment," then what would it take to land either of those players? I'm dying to know.

ok...Let's start with Vinny. Great player, and certainly first line material. But...$7.727 cap hit makes me want to puke. At 30 he still has a lot of hockey left, but will more likely than not be on the downside of his career. Under contract for 4 more years, you lock up the first line but...you are paying out your ass by commiting to it. So, if it was Vinny, you simply need to move another big contract to get him, and the only other big contract the team has is Chris Drury's.

To Tampa : Chris Drury
Evgeny Grachev
2010 2nd rounder.

Total Cap Hit $7,050,000

To NYR : Vinny LeCavalier

Total Cap Hit $7,727,000

Tampa saves $677,000 in cap space.

Limited risk for the Rangers, potential high reward. Vinny in all likelyhood would center top line of Gaborik and Frolov giving the club a very respectable top 6.

Benefit for Rangers: They add a player who is more familiar with Torts than anyone. They add a bonafide First Line Center. They add size, and a physical player to the top 6. The get the Left handed center they were looking for since signing Gaborik.

Benefit for Tampa: Salary dump. They add a big contract that expires 2 years earlier than they’re big contract they are currently in. Drury UFA at the end of 2012, plus dollar for dollar the Tampa Bay organization saves a whopping $27,000,000. How? In Dollar amount, Chris Drury makes $8 million this year and $5 million next year. Vinny is Maxed at $10 mil per for the next 4 years!!!! That's $40,000,000 in actualy dollar amount opposed to Drury's 13 Mil. Tampa also adds Grachev Rated 8.0B Prospect and a 2nd rounder w/out taking more of a cap hit. Tampa also adds a leader in Chris who would be good presence especially for a young team. Obviously Vinny is better than Chris at this stage but factoring in the money, WHICH IS ALOT OF MONEY!...just maybe there is something here.

Rangers trade expendable assets to get better for the now by flexing the almighty dollar muscle. It doesn’t matter that they are paying an extra $2.273 mil per season, they are the 2nd highest revenue grossing team in the league. They have the money to spend, and this kind of circumvention isn’t really circumvention as the CBA is written plain and simple by Cap hit, not actual dollar amount.

You want to play on the business side you need to play the hand your given, and the hand that Glen Sather was given has deep pockets!

Now onto Brad Richards. Very good offensive forward. Great vision, very good playmaker. But, I have said it before and I will say it again. Can be a defensive liability, and can disappear for games at a time. One year left on a contract with a massive cap hit. Definate first line material and with a player like Gabby would probably post another 80 to 90pt season. Another positive is the familiarity with John Tortorella. Give him a thumbs up for what he could add but you get 1 year guaranteed as he and his enormous cap hit expire after this season. That risk limits what I think A GM should offer for him. The big reason being…Are the Rangers contenders this year? Even with Brad Richards I definitely question getting past the Pens and or the Caps so for the sacrifice my offer would be less than what you posted.

To Dallas :
Michael Rozsival
Todd White
Evgeny Grachev
2010 2nd round selection

Total Cap Hit $7,375,000

To NYR : Brad Richards

Total Cap Hit $7,800,000
Difference in cap hits is $425,000 in favor of the Stars.

Benefit for the Rangers : They get their first line center and they get the left handed shot they wanted. They get better for the now, but lost a lot of potential and a very serviceable defenseman.

Benefit for the Stars : Get something for a player that they are potentially going to lose come free agency.

The Rozsival and White are really the cap eveners here as for Dallas the long term potential is probably higher with Grachev and the first rounder.

At the end of the day, I think that Tampa and NY make better trading partners due to the money issue. I can tell you with certainty that Tampa does not want to pay 40 million for Vinny over the next 4 years. The lesser evil of 13 mil for Drury plus Grachev and the pick strictly on the business side could entice an owner into greenlighting a GM to make such a move.

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10-01-2010, 10:13 PM
  #72
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Where's JOrts when you need him...
There's a question nobody's ever asked before.

My move: Stop signing UFA's. Wait 4 years. That's it.

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10-01-2010, 10:52 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Lion Hound View Post
ok...Let's start with Vinny. Great player, and certainly first line material. But...$7.727 cap hit makes me want to puke. At 30 he still has a lot of hockey left, but will more likely than not be on the downside of his career. Under contract for 4 more years, you lock up the first line but...you are paying out your ass by commiting to it. So, if it was Vinny, you simply need to move another big contract to get him, and the only other big contract the team has is Chris Drury's.

To Tampa : Chris Drury
Evgeny Grachev
2010 2nd rounder.

Total Cap Hit $7,050,000

To NYR : Vinny LeCavalier

Total Cap Hit $7,727,000

Tampa saves $677,000 in cap space.

Limited risk for the Rangers, potential high reward. Vinny in all likelyhood would center top line of Gaborik and Frolov giving the club a very respectable top 6.

Benefit for Rangers: They add a player who is more familiar with Torts than anyone. They add a bonafide First Line Center. They add size, and a physical player to the top 6. The get the Left handed center they were looking for since signing Gaborik.

Benefit for Tampa: Salary dump. They add a big contract that expires 2 years earlier than they’re big contract they are currently in. Drury UFA at the end of 2012, plus dollar for dollar the Tampa Bay organization saves a whopping $27,000,000. How? In Dollar amount, Chris Drury makes $8 million this year and $5 million next year. Vinny is Maxed at $10 mil per for the next 4 years!!!! That's $40,000,000 in actualy dollar amount opposed to Drury's 13 Mil. Tampa also adds Grachev Rated 8.0B Prospect and a 2nd rounder w/out taking more of a cap hit. Tampa also adds a leader in Chris who would be good presence especially for a young team. Obviously Vinny is better than Chris at this stage but factoring in the money, WHICH IS ALOT OF MONEY!...just maybe there is something here.

Rangers trade expendable assets to get better for the now by flexing the almighty dollar muscle. It doesn’t matter that they are paying an extra $2.273 mil per season, they are the 2nd highest revenue grossing team in the league. They have the money to spend, and this kind of circumvention isn’t really circumvention as the CBA is written plain and simple by Cap hit, not actual dollar amount.

You want to play on the business side you need to play the hand your given, and the hand that Glen Sather was given has deep pockets!

Now onto Brad Richards. Very good offensive forward. Great vision, very good playmaker. But, I have said it before and I will say it again. Can be a defensive liability, and can disappear for games at a time. One year left on a contract with a massive cap hit. Definate first line material and with a player like Gabby would probably post another 80 to 90pt season. Another positive is the familiarity with John Tortorella. Give him a thumbs up for what he could add but you get 1 year guaranteed as he and his enormous cap hit expire after this season. That risk limits what I think A GM should offer for him. The big reason being…Are the Rangers contenders this year? Even with Brad Richards I definitely question getting past the Pens and or the Caps so for the sacrifice my offer would be less than what you posted.

To Dallas :
Michael Rozsival
Todd White
Evgeny Grachev
2010 2nd round selection

Total Cap Hit $7,375,000

To NYR : Brad Richards

Total Cap Hit $7,800,000
Difference in cap hits is $425,000 in favor of the Stars.

Benefit for the Rangers : They get their first line center and they get the left handed shot they wanted. They get better for the now, but lost a lot of potential and a very serviceable defenseman.

Benefit for the Stars : Get something for a player that they are potentially going to lose come free agency.

The Rozsival and White are really the cap eveners here as for Dallas the long term potential is probably higher with Grachev and the first rounder.

At the end of the day, I think that Tampa and NY make better trading partners due to the money issue. I can tell you with certainty that Tampa does not want to pay 40 million for Vinny over the next 4 years. The lesser evil of 13 mil for Drury plus Grachev and the pick strictly on the business side could entice an owner into greenlighting a GM to make such a move.
You don't seem to understand how long-term Vinny's contract is. It runs through the 2019-20 season at a 7.727 cap hit.

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10-01-2010, 11:35 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
You don't seem to understand how long-term Vinny's contract is. It runs through the 2019-20 season at a 7.727 cap hit.
The players will be cyborgs by the time Vinny L's contract expires...

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10-02-2010, 07:14 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
You don't seem to understand how long-term Vinny's contract is. It runs through the 2019-20 season at a 7.727 cap hit.
You are right...I went to NHL Numbers rather than Capgeek. On that site it appeared it expired in 4 years, but it doesn't. All that work for nothing!

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