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Old
10-02-2010, 02:42 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by frankthefrowner View Post
Hurricanes? Who did they add of significance?
You know they were one of the hottest teams in the league down the stretch, right?

Their season looked worse then it was because of a bad start.

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10-02-2010, 02:42 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Oh and I forgot to mention: we got lucky last year because Gabby was completely healthy. If he goes down for any extended period of time, we will be contending for a pick in the top half dozen.
I bet this is what you are hoping for, Colonel Tanker.

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10-02-2010, 02:47 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by gabby33 View Post
The Rangers are definitely better and definitely have improved much more than a couple of teams u named like the Hurricanes? They havn't done really anything over the offseason...the Rangers are projected in Hockey Night Live to be 8th in the EAST.

The Lightning don't have the defense nor goalie

The Senators have a pretty good team but their age is whats hitting them with Alfredsson and Gonchar in their mid 30's.

You forgot to add the Thrashers because they will make a run but they will fall short as to why we are getting 7th-8th place this year
Hockey Night Live?...

OK, EXPERTS other then Rangers, Islanders, and Devils employees are saying the Lightning are a darkhorse, the Canes are a darkhorse, and the rest of the teams I mentioned are either on par or better then we are.

I believe in this team, too, and am generally an optimist, but really, use logic and reason. Try to be a realist.

The Rangers are the 4th best team in their own division.

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10-02-2010, 03:28 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Hockey Night Live?...

OK, EXPERTS other then Rangers, Islanders, and Devils employees are saying the Lightning are a darkhorse, the Canes are a darkhorse, and the rest of the teams I mentioned are either on par or better then we are.

I believe in this team, too, and am generally an optimist, but really, use logic and reason. Try to be a realist.

The Rangers are the 4th best team in their own division.
I don't think either the Flyers or the Devils have significantly better rosters than the Rangers. It's all a matter of whether or not this team under-performs again. Last year, too many forwards performed below expectations. I mean seriously, Kotalik was a 20+ goal scorer for 4 of the previous 6 seasons and even in the other two he scored at least 15. Last year he scored 11 between the Rangers and Flames. Whatever you thought of his contract, no one realistically expected him to be as bad as he was. Drury was coming off 4 straight seasons of 20+ goals (9/10 seasons as well) and 10 straight seasons of 40+ points. There is no excusable reason as to why the team did not make the playoffs last year. One more goal for either player during any one goal game means that the team makes the playoffs instead of one of the two conference finalists.

The Devils overachieved and although I think their roster might be slightly better on paper this year, they're still going to have to overachieve to compete for the division. I actually think the Flyers are worse on paper than they were last year.

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10-02-2010, 03:54 PM
  #30
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Well, since nothing ever goes differently than its projected to, lets just fold it up and call this season over.

Some of you are absolutely ridiculous with the faith you put in how things appear they might or should go.

I have absolutely no idea how this season will go - nor do any of you.

We'll see.

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10-02-2010, 03:59 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
So on a much worse Islanders team John Tavares alone will make them better than us?

And not any of our young players will improve, right?

I don't drink the positive kool aid much either, but come on.

I said he'll make them better (as in better than last year), not better than us. It's not kool aid, it's Hooked on Phonics that is necessary here.

The argument on the Isles is the same as for other teams: they will be better than they were last year. (Actually, with the Isles it's questionable.) When I said (in another thread) that Pitts will be better than last year, it did not imply that we were better than them before and now they will be ahead of us. It just meant that they will be better this year than last. Same for what I wrote re: Isles.

Before you go around calling people names, learn to read. It looks really bad when you call other people stupid, yet don't know how to comprehend a very basic sentence.

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10-02-2010, 04:01 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
And not any of our young players will improve, right?

And one more thing: if you can't argue against what was actually written, don't make up stuff so that you can defeat a Strawman argument.

Whatever improvements our youth is expected to show is unlikely to be as much as whatever Tavares will likely put up. Anything is possible, but the odds of Tavares becoming this year's Stamkos are much higher than the odds of Anisimov.

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10-02-2010, 04:11 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Say what? Exchanging Jokinen for Frolov adds 10-15 points?!

We are the only ones in Atlantic who did not improve. The Isles suffered injuries, but may be better just based on Tavares improving to go from a rookie to a star.

All other teams will be straight up better this year.

The Rangers will face a tougher schedule, and therefore worse results. Look for them to finish 10-15 points below last year's performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAMREALITY View Post
Your cynicism is so melodramatic that I think sometimes you're just faking. Do you do this solely out of a need for attention or are we actually to take this stuff from you seriously? On a side note, are you a betting man? I'd love to put money on the table with you. Just let me know (and no fear, I'm a man of my word).

Classic debating technique: if you can't show how someone's wrong, you attack him personally.

Anyway, where am I wrong? What additions have we made besides Joke for Fro? Yes, yes, I know, Stepan will magically become a superstar. Maybe, but probably not.

What exactly am I betting on here? I'd love to put up some money that the only changes this year have been:

1. Joke for Fro
2. Shelley for Boo on the 4th line
3. Redden for McD on defense
4. Possible addition of Stepan, who can't be hoped to be more than an average NHLer in his rookie year. In fact, that would be a spectacular rookie year for him and great for the future, but for this year, the 10-11 season, it's nothing that will make us better.

Would you like to bet that those are our only changes? Or what exactly is the bet here?

I suspect people are just mad at me because I'm pouring some cold water on them during hockey's "most wonderful time of the year" when everyone's hopes are completely out of whack.

No team today is predicting that it will finish last, but somebody will.

We won't finish last, but the idea that this team is better is just, well, Kool-Aid.

It will only be better if rookies perform far behind any reasonable expectations. If Stepan comes in and puts up 70 while MDZ puts up 60. It's possible, just highly, highly unlikely (this year, though not so remote in the future).

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10-02-2010, 04:20 PM
  #34
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Btw, when I signed up for this forum 3.5 years ago, I argued that our prospects were lacking, that the 2004 draft results were no good (Dubi+Cally when you have a top 10 pick, another first rounder, 5 second rounders [one traded away during the draft], and two third rounders is just not what you hope for), and that we won't be any good for the foreseeable future with the youth we had at the time.

People got mad and told me how great Byers was. I distinctly remember his name coming up repeatedly. Korps too was thought to be a great new youngster, a favorite of many. But even if all of them had panned out, our team would still be looking at a 5-7 spot, not at Cup contention, and the fact is that most prospects don't pan out as hoped.

Most solid prospects don't make it period, those who do are usually very average or mediocre NHLers, and only a few play on top lines.

Based on past statistics, it was clear that we won't have enough kids to fill up our top 6 F nor our top 4 D.

If we did not sign Gabby and some other vets, this team would've been in deep, deep trouble relying on the prospects we had in 2007.

But no, I was yelled at at the time. As am I right now.

The difference though is that at the time I was somewhat hopeful about our present and very negative on our future. Right now, I am very negative our present and somewhat hopefully about our future.

Our defense will be excellent, Lundqvist will be around for another decade, and young forwards are still lacking but could get there with a good pick next year in the first round or a trade/UFA.

But this year... this year Stepan is still a rookie, if that. This year, MDZ is still a sophomore. This year we will suck.

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10-02-2010, 06:37 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Classic debating technique: if you can't show how someone's wrong, you attack him personally.

Anyway, where am I wrong? What additions have we made besides Joke for Fro? Yes, yes, I know, Stepan will magically become a superstar. Maybe, but probably not.

What exactly am I betting on here? I'd love to put up some money that the only changes this year have been:

1. Joke for Fro
2. Shelley for Boo on the 4th line
3. Redden for McD on defense
4. Possible addition of Stepan, who can't be hoped to be more than an average NHLer in his rookie year. In fact, that would be a spectacular rookie year for him and great for the future, but for this year, the 10-11 season, it's nothing that will make us better.

Would you like to bet that those are our only changes? Or what exactly is the bet here?

I suspect people are just mad at me because I'm pouring some cold water on them during hockey's "most wonderful time of the year" when everyone's hopes are completely out of whack.

No team today is predicting that it will finish last, but somebody will.

We won't finish last, but the idea that this team is better is just, well, Kool-Aid.

It will only be better if rookies perform far behind any reasonable expectations. If Stepan comes in and puts up 70 while MDZ puts up 60. It's possible, just highly, highly unlikely (this year, though not so remote in the future).
I've been on forums long enough to know when debating someone on the merits is nothing more than an exercise in futility and a complete waste of time. I've grown tired of those sorts of go around in circles type debates.

And what are we betting? If you'd like, and if you're a man of integrity, I'd put money down that we finish with a better record than last year and that the season goes far better than your melodramatic predictions for it. Just name the terms and we'll take it from there if you'd like.

No way our team is as bad as you're making it and your cynicism still seems more like a cry for attention to me than an actual position; but I digress. I like putting my money where my mouth is and if you don't, I see no problem with that. To each their own. But if you do want to oblige the offer, then just let me know your terms.

Peace.

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Old
10-02-2010, 07:45 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by IAMREALITY View Post
I've been on forums long enough to know when debating someone on the merits is nothing more than an exercise in futility and a complete waste of time.

Like I said, some people (70%) come here to discuss hockey, and some (30%) come here (or to any forum that they stumble upon) to make statements about their superiority over the rest of humanity in a vain attempt to boost their self-esteem by attacking others, usually by twisting their words in the process.

Your statement above clearly shows that you are the latter.

Put me on your ignore list and don't respond to me anymore. If you can't discuss things on merits, then don't respond to me at all.

I gave you my argument based on the team's personnel. If you can't do the same, then go boost your self-esteem elsewhere.

This is not a forum where one is to discuss how everyone is dumber than you ("All the HF people are so ...!"), nor even how you are so much brighter than me personally.

This is a hockey forum. If you can't discuss things on merits without name-calling, then don't discuss them at all, at least not with me.

P.S. Not once when I bet with people on a forum, did I get paid, so you'll forgive me if I don't make bets with anonymous people I can't track. It's a bet where I can only lose, but never win. Nor is this a place I come to bet money. I do that at a sportsbook, not a forum. I come here to discuss hockey. (This is radically different from what you do: you come here to boost your self-esteem by crapping on others.)

But you can write this down and come back and yell at me in half a year if this is not true: unless Stepan, MDZ or someone else overperforms beyond all expectations, the team won't be any better than last year because Joke=Fro more or less. They will make it by a little and easily lose in the first round, or they will fail to make it.

As a "man of integrity", no doubt you will post "I eat crow" if I turn out to be right, correct?


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Old
10-02-2010, 07:57 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by IAMREALITY View Post
No way our team is as bad as you're making it

And by the way, as usual, when you can't argue on facts, you have to create a straw-man argument by putting words in your opponent's mouth.

Just how bad did I mean it? The impression a person gets from reading your post is that I just said that the team will finish last by 25 points.

In facts, I said that Fro=Joke, more or less, and therefore, no progress can reasonably be expected.

Where am I going wrong here? Is Fro really that much better than Joke? Marginally, he may be better. But is the difference game-breaking? Are we going to get an additional 10-15 points (as the person I was responding to suggested) based on the exchange of Fro for Joke? You seriously suggesting that we will win 5-8 more games that we lost last year because of Fro?

There is not one person who gave a real argument for why we'll be better. People just state it with no explanation. "We will have 10-15 points more than last season"... yeah, we will do that because...? Because you want it? Because you don't want to be depressed thinking that you'll sit through another long season?

What's the reason for us getting 10-15 additional points?

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10-02-2010, 08:57 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Like I said, some people (70%) come here to discuss hockey, and some (30%) come here (or to any forum that they stumble upon) to make statements about their superiority over the rest of humanity in a vain attempt to boost their self-esteem by attacking others, usually by twisting their words in the process.

Your statement above clearly shows that you are the latter.
I was going to ignore this, but this is just too ridiculous. You say someone else is pointing our their superiority over others after you post a long-winded comment that illuminates NOTHING except that you were right about some borderline prospects almost 4 years ago? Mind blowing.

As I've said earlier, nobody knows anything about this season. Predictions are wrong every single year, especially regarding teams like NYR who aren't a lock to be at the top or the absolute bottom. You're just as likely to be wrong as anybody else on this forum.

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10-02-2010, 09:04 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
comment that illuminates NOTHING except that you were right about some borderline prospects almost 4 years ago?

Ok, next time I will break it down a little more to make sure that the point is written out in detail because otherwise it's too much to expect some people to get it.

The point was: fans - of any team - confuse their hopes with reality. You hope that the team will get better in a few years, so you praise prospects and rookies. When someone throws some cold water on these ideas, you get mad because it is not what you want to hear.

Similarly, you hope that the team will perform well this year. This flies in face of the quality of the team's roster, but you confuse your hope with reality. When someone points out that the roster is largely the same and no major additions were made, you get mad because it is not what you want to hear.

I know, I know, analogies are very difficult and you feel the need to focus on the players rather than the underlying point (that being that fans confuse their hopes with reality, and get mad when someone points that out).

P.S. To say that no predictions can be made is BS. People make predictions all day long here. There whole threads on it. Nobody has a problem with predictions. The problem is only with predictions that the team will not perform as well as you hope.

When someone wrote a couple of days ago that the team has a reasonable shot at the #4 spot in the East, nobody had a problem with that prediction, nor did anyone except me object to the poster above who wrote that we'll gain 10-15 points this year.

People don't hate predictions. They just hate predictions that the team won't play well.

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10-02-2010, 09:15 PM
  #40
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If what I've seen in the preseason can be transferred to the regular season, Id much rather watch us miss the playoffs with Stepan in, playing with youth and exuberance. In contrast to missing the playoffs with captain crutch and Redden's flat ho-hum play style.

Even if we finish with the same exact record I'd know with this young team the games we won and loss would of been fought for harder and been more entertaining to watch.

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10-02-2010, 09:20 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by ChipAyten View Post
If what I've seen in the preseason can be transferred to the regular season, Id much rather watch us miss the playoffs with Stepan in, playing with youth and exuberance. In contrast to missing the playoffs with captain crutch and Redden's flat ho-hum play style.

The point behind everything I've written is that I'd rather miss the playoffs with Step, McD, etc than make the playoffs with Prospal, Rosie, etc.

Dump the vets. Let the kids play. If we miss the playoffs, well guess what, we'll probably miss the playoffs anyway and if we won't, we'll get smacked in 5 games in the first round.

Let 'em play! And don't get us anymore Antropov-type rentals to make the playoffs.

I really don't care if we make the first round of the playoffs if Antropov was the cause.

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10-02-2010, 09:30 PM
  #42
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The point behind everything I've written is that I'd rather miss the playoffs with Step, McD, etc than make the playoffs with Prospal, Rosie, etc.

Dump the vets. Let the kids play. If we miss the playoffs, well guess what, we'll probably miss the playoffs anyway and if we won't, we'll get smacked in 5 games in the first round.

Let 'em play! And don't get us anymore Antropov-type rentals to make the playoffs.

I really don't care if we make the first round of the playoffs if Antropov was the cause.
I'm not sure if I agree with all of the points in the argument over the last page, but I absolutely agree with this summary.

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10-02-2010, 09:45 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Like I said, some people (70%) come here to discuss hockey, and some (30%) come here (or to any forum that they stumble upon) to make statements about their superiority over the rest of humanity in a vain attempt to boost their self-esteem by attacking others, usually by twisting their words in the process.

Your statement above clearly shows that you are the latter.

Put me on your ignore list and don't respond to me anymore. If you can't discuss things on merits, then don't respond to me at all.

I gave you my argument based on the team's personnel. If you can't do the same, then go boost your self-esteem elsewhere.

This is not a forum where one is to discuss how everyone is dumber than you ("All the HF people are so ...!"), nor even how you are so much brighter than me personally.

This is a hockey forum. If you can't discuss things on merits without name-calling, then don't discuss them at all, at least not with me.

P.S. Not once when I bet with people on a forum, did I get paid, so you'll forgive me if I don't make bets with anonymous people I can't track. It's a bet where I can only lose, but never win. Nor is this a place I come to bet money. I do that at a sportsbook, not a forum. I come here to discuss hockey. (This is radically different from what you do: you come here to boost your self-esteem by crapping on others.)

But you can write this down and come back and yell at me in half a year if this is not true: unless Stepan, MDZ or someone else overperforms beyond all expectations, the team won't be any better than last year because Joke=Fro more or less. They will make it by a little and easily lose in the first round, or they will fail to make it.

As a "man of integrity", no doubt you will post "I eat crow" if I turn out to be right, correct?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
And by the way, as usual, when you can't argue on facts, you have to create a straw-man argument by putting words in your opponent's mouth.

Just how bad did I mean it? The impression a person gets from reading your post is that I just said that the team will finish last by 25 points.

In facts, I said that Fro=Joke, more or less, and therefore, no progress can reasonably be expected.

Where am I going wrong here? Is Fro really that much better than Joke? Marginally, he may be better. But is the difference game-breaking? Are we going to get an additional 10-15 points (as the person I was responding to suggested) based on the exchange of Fro for Joke? You seriously suggesting that we will win 5-8 more games that we lost last year because of Fro?

There is not one person who gave a real argument for why we'll be better. People just state it with no explanation. "We will have 10-15 points more than last season"... yeah, we will do that because...? Because you want it? Because you don't want to be depressed thinking that you'll sit through another long season?

What's the reason for us getting 10-15 additional points?
Oh my god dude what are you even talking about? Your responses are so filled with over the top emotions that I'm not even sure responding to you is in the best interests of your health. I mean, holy cow son, settle down.

First off, I'm a man of my word. If I say I bet, I bet. Whatever you need to make you feel secure in that, feel free.

Secondly, my superiority over the rest of humanity? I'm talking about how much dumber all HF people are? How much brighter than you I am? That I don't know what the point of this forum is? What on earth are you talking about? I'm not even sure how to respond to all that.

I've seen others having discussions with you and getting nowhere. I merely figured that since your mind doesn't appear open enough to consider something other than your cynical opinion of things that it wasn't worth my time. And I called you no names whatsoever. Talk about twisting reality.

I also see that you love using the word strawman. Do you think using it makes you a better debater somehow? Maybe you should understand its meaning a bit clearer before throwing it out there so readily, since I offered no strawman argument whatsoever.

You also exaggerate by just a tad when you say I gave the impression that you think we'll be in last by 25 points. I mean c'mon, you think anyone really agrees with you on that?

You are arguing here that we haven't improved while everyone else has. We were overall pretty hard to watch last year. Saying we'll fare no better is in essence saying we're not all that good of a club. I disagree wholeheartedly with that position. Why? Cause we're different in so many ways.

Want some merits? Fine.

You have repeatedly compared Fro to Joke and made that a primary cornerstone of your argument that we would finish with more points. You've berated the point made by others that we could finish with 10-15 more points. What you fail to admit or even possibly recognize (which would be a huge shortcoming by the way) is that Joke wasn't with us all season last year was he. Ohhhhhh, did I just wreck your primary argument? Did you just now realize that we didn't even get him until February of last year? What about your Shelley-Boogard argument. Ohhhh, did I just wreck that one too, since we didn't friggin have Shelley either until after February? That's right pal, your argument already has huge holes in it, since they were with us for only 20 or so games out of 80 friggin 2.

So let's start with the Boogeyman. I would agree he's no more valuable than Shelley and consider them overall a wash for the most part. But we didn't start the year with Shelley. We're starting this season with the Boogeyman. Regardless of his overall hockey skill (which under torts WILL improve), he brings an intimidation factor to the ice that we were missing for so much of last year. That would absolutely have an impact in certain games.

Frolov. Personally, I think he's a better fit for our club than Joke. We're also starting the season with him. That's 60 somethin games we have him more than Joke. He's also on a friggin mission to prove something and from what he's shown in preseason, is very much starting that mission successfully. 60 somethin games with him over Joke and I'd say if he produces that him being the difference in 5-10 games of that extra 60 is not outside the realm of reality whatsoever.

Other factors: Our returning members have good memories. Their summers were long due to how things ended. They're gonna be playing with a bit more commitment and fire this year. You don't think so? You think that won't make a motivating difference? You might not know the sport as well as you think then.

We also have an influx of talented youngsters who are HUNGRY to make a name for themselves. You have repeatedly stated that we'd only improve if these youngsters perform way beyond any expectations. Really? They have to go that beyond expectations? There are already high expectations for Stepan and with good reason. You seem to make it like he's just incapable of adding value to our club. He'd have to just be wayyyyy better than expectations to mean anything. Are you serious? If he just plays the way he's played in preseason then we'd be improved from that alone. Why you dismiss him as nothing but a likely to be irrelevant rookie is quite amazing, when all he's done is show the opposite. Our young talent is promising and some absolutely have the potential, by just playing their game (not by rising wayyyyyyy above expectations yada yada yada), to influence our season and help us win games.

We have Dubi on a mission. We have Cally on a mission. We have Avery on a mission. We have players like Boyle and Fedetenko who are playing with fire and have something to prove. We have Redden sent down (boost to our club right there). We have a team that appears to all of a sudden be playing with an identity, where last year we had almost none. We have HUNGER. Yes, hunger. That's a huge ingredient for any team and ofttimes the difference between winning or losing in the playoffs. Last year our hunger wasn't anywhere near what it should've been. This year? I see hunger in the hearts of so many on our team, from young, to budding leaders, to veterans. Huge bonus.

We have the addition of Biron, who if he plays even marginally consistently should net us an extra 5 games alone, and a more rested Hank could possibly yield us even 5 more. I'm sure you'll underestimate that impact, since underestimation seems to be your forte. But I think the addition of him is a huge bonus.

I gotta put my kids to bed so I'm gonna cut the points short (since I have more but will digress for now). The last point I'll make is one of jogging memory. Think back. Try. Try and remember last year. Now, how many games did we lose by just a goal? Just one, lousy goal. How many? From what I remember there were a ton of games last year that even with our inadequacies, were so close that just one play could've made the difference. When you take all that I said above, plus Fro and Boogey for the ENTIRE (since you fail to recognize that quite valid point) season, along with fresher goaltending and a more solid backup, plus some young hungry talent and a team filled with players that for one reason or another are out to prove something, and you're telling me we couldn't net an additional 5-8 games over the course of an 82 game season? That we're no better than last year?

Well to each their own pal; but I think that would be an incredibly narrow and shortsighted view of things. We are better in so many ways. Our dynamic so much stronger. Hunger so much more prevalent. Identity so much more recognizable so far.

Who knows how this season will go. But sitting there with the impression of being on a high and mighty horse, acting like you're the one who's being rational while all of us being encouraged are out of whack and drinking kool aid, is quite misguided to put it bluntly. When looking at the entire picture I see absolutely nothing wrong with people being encouraged as to where we're headed. They seem justified and their views based in rational logic. But I don't find logic in your argument. I find nothing more than bitterness, cynicism, and a seeming cry for attention by way of being contrary and dramatic. But to each their own perception, no matter how flawed.

Oh, on a last note: Would I post "I eat crow" if I was wrong and you were right? You bet your ass I would. I would do that and more. Why? Cause like I said; I have integrity. Being wrong is fun. It keeps things interesting. I've never minded admitting my wrongs since with every wrong comes learning of at least some kind. But don't ever question my integrity as if I'm some keyboard warrior who can't back his stuff up. If I say I put my money down, it's down. If I say I'll dance naked around central park with "I was wrong!" painted on my chest, that's what I'd do. Care to throw down? The offer still stands. But like I said; if not no biggie. We are here after all to just talk hockey. But your cynicism is so flawed that I don't feel it should stand unchallenged; hence my desire to put myself in the middle of it.

Can't wait to see how readily you will dismiss the entire argument above. I know your type. Considering opposing arguments isn't what suits you. Simply restating your argument as if no other points had ever been made is likely your normal repertoire. But maybe you'll surprise me. Hell, if ya do I'll have no problem admitting my wrongs and offering apology.

Peace.


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10-02-2010, 10:00 PM
  #44
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Ok, next time I will break it down a little more to make sure that the point is written out in detail because otherwise it's too much to expect some people to get it.

The point was: fans - of any team - confuse their hopes with reality. You hope that the team will get better in a few years, so you praise prospects and rookies. When someone throws some cold water on these ideas, you get mad because it is not what you want to hear.

Similarly, you hope that the team will perform well this year. This flies in face of the quality of the team's roster, but you confuse your hope with reality. When someone points out that the roster is largely the same and no major additions were made, you get mad because it is not what you want to hear.

I know, I know, analogies are very difficult and you feel the need to focus on the players rather than the underlying point (that being that fans confuse their hopes with reality, and get mad when someone points that out).

P.S. To say that no predictions can be made is BS. People make predictions all day long here. There whole threads on it. Nobody has a problem with predictions. The problem is only with predictions that the team will not perform as well as you hope.

When someone wrote a couple of days ago that the team has a reasonable shot at the #4 spot in the East, nobody had a problem with that prediction, nor did anyone except me object to the poster above who wrote that we'll gain 10-15 points this year.

People don't hate predictions. They just hate predictions that the team won't play well.
We're done here. If you can read that back to yourself (especially the bolded) and not see how this reeks of self-importance and is a perfect example of, as you say, "making statements about your superiority over the rest of humanity in a vain attempt to boost your self-esteem" there's absolutely nothing left to say.

We disagree strongly. That is all.

Weird that I somehow got an English degree with such little understanding of analogy. I should probably give that back.

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10-02-2010, 10:53 PM
  #45
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Iamreality,

1. Yes, I was aware that Joke was not around all year, but it wasn't as if he came here for nothing. He came in return for two serviceable, though struggling players. Again, the gap between Frolov and either Joke or Kovalik+Higgins does not equal another 5-8 wins. Even Frolov alone, if he came as an addition with no subtraction, does not equal turning 5-8 losses into wins.

2. I will ignore your argument re: Shelley not being here all year. Really... were you trying to say that an additional fourth liner, whether Shelley or Boo, will make a difference between a non-playoff team and one that has a competitive playoff run? No? Didn't think so. But then what's the point of mentioning it?

3. As for your argument that we will have hungry youth and vets with a long memory making them work harder than last year. This can be said of any non-playoff team or any team that lost in Game 7 of the playoffs. All bad teams (and most of the good teams) add some youth. Sometimes because the youth is ready, sometimes because their other option as a first line center is a recent waivers pick up. All teams that came close to making the playoffs or winning a playoff round could be said to have long memories. This means nothing.

We had vets barely make the playoff from 1998 to 2003, yet they never stepped up. No reason to hope that happens now, not anymore than we can expect of other teams.

3. Biron alone will give us 5-8 more wins this year? Really? Who can argue with that! In about 20 games, he will turn 5-8 would-be losses into wins? So about a third of the games he'll play, he'll steal a victory for us? How's he the backup then? Bench Lundqvist and let Biron play. Lundqvist sure does not steal a third of the games for us.


4. "We have Dubi on a mission. We have Cally on a mission. We have Avery on a mission."

And last year they were on vacation?


5. "Would I post "I eat crow" if I was wrong and you were right? You bet your ass I would. I would do that and more. Why? Cause like I said; I have integrity."

Last October I wrote the same thing about the Rangers: they will either fail to make the playoffs or make it and get destroyed, so we should just trade Higgins, Kotalik, Prospal, etc. I got the same response ithen as I am getting now. I expect next April to get the same non-response as last April.

6. "Who knows how this season will go. But sitting there with the impression of being on a high and mighty horse, acting like you're the one who's being rational while all of us being encouraged are out of whack and drinking kool aid, is quite misguided to put it bluntly."

I mentioned kool-aid because that's what I was told: if I don't believe the team is better, I am drinking Kool-Aid.

As for everything else, I'm arguing my position. So far, I've argued it on facts. When I was rude, it was in response to prior rudeness directed at me.


Quiet simply, I don't believe that a team with a rookie and a recent waiver pick up as centers on the first two lines has a chance in the playoffs against the Caps or the Pens, nor do I believe that Frolov is any kind of savior.

The idea that someone who couldn't get himself a multi-year contract when he's in the prime of his career is a savior seems a little, how should I put it, Kool-Aid.

I'll be very glad if he has a great season, but if he were expected to have a great season, GMs would line up to sign him, rather than let him flap in the wind. No matter the FA environment, game-breakers do not sit and wait for someone to offer them a one-year deal.

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10-02-2010, 11:01 PM
  #46
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By the way, I am not saying it's impossible that the Rangers do well. Like I said, if someone goes crazy out there, we can succeed. My big problem is the lack of centers and scoring. But if Stepan puts up 78 points this year, that problem is solved.

But what I am talking about is not predicting with 100% certainty, but making "reasonable predictions".

And the idea that we will be much better because we now will have Fro and Boo, and Avery is on a mission, is, well, not reasonable. Nothing is impossible, at this point, it's highly unlikely.

Considering that our competition in Atlantic got better (the Debbies will have Kovalchuk all year, and the Pens+Philly signed a few good players), I see our odds of making it as worse than before.

I would much rather have Kovalchuk for a full season than to have Dubinsky on a mission. Maybe it's just me.

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10-02-2010, 11:11 PM
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My thoughts exactly.

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10-02-2010, 11:37 PM
  #48
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everyday i seem to pick a different side of the fence...one day im so optimistic then the next i just seem to be up in the air and not too sure...i guess its so hard to predict because im optimistic about the youg guys but still dont trust them yet...this is so difficult

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10-03-2010, 12:39 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Iamreality,

1. Yes, I was aware that Joke was not around all year, but it wasn't as if he came here for nothing. He came in return for two serviceable, though struggling players. Again, the gap between Frolov and either Joke or Kovalik+Higgins does not equal another 5-8 wins. Even Frolov alone, if he came as an addition with no subtraction, does not equal turning 5-8 losses into wins.
Glad you were aware. Kotalik and Higgins were worthless. To say Frolov wouldn't be expected to produce more than them is ridiculous. You've been comparing Fro to Joke as if Joke had been here 82 games. When called out on it, you now dismiss is as "ehhh, so he's equal to Kotalik and Higgins then". Are you for real? And at no point is anyone's argument that Fro alone nets us 5-8 wins (though that's not an impossibility). You wanna talk about strawmen or twisted arguments well there's one right there. It's a combination of all the factors I listed that could quite reasonably net us that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
2. I will ignore your argument re: Shelley not being here all year. Really... were you trying to say that an additional fourth liner, whether Shelley or Boo, will make a difference between a non-playoff team and one that has a competitive playoff run? No? Didn't think so. But then what's the point of mentioning it?

Did you even watch the games last season? If you had, you might've noticed how easy it was for other teams to take advantage of us physically, and how easily they took liberties with us. Are you gonna sit there and say that having an intimidating factor like Boogey on the ice is no different than having no one at all? You do know we're talking about hockey here right? Boogey's presence absolutely adds value to our club (as did Shelley's). We were decimated physically last year. If you don't think having the #1 intimidator in the league on our team makes any difference at all as opposed to having no one, then I'm not sure I can even take you seriously. And no one said that Boo alone is the difference between a non playoff team and a competitive one. You just like making things up I see.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
3. As for your argument that we will have hungry youth and vets with a long memory making them work harder than last year. This can be said of any non-playoff team or any team that lost in Game 7 of the playoffs. All bad teams (and most of the good teams) add some youth. Sometimes because the youth is ready, sometimes because their other option as a first line center is a recent waivers pick up. All teams that came close to making the playoffs or winning a playoff round could be said to have long memories. This means nothing.
Why, cause you say so? Why don't you tell the players that and see what they say to ya. They'd likely look at you with contempt and think you were a bit off. And I love how instead of actually supplying substance, you merely dismiss and then conclude as if you had actually made any point. Sorry, but things don't quite work that way. Hunger is absolutely important. We, for whatever reason, didn't show nearly enough of it last year. If you think adding hunger doesn't help a club then again; I'm not sure I can take you seriously. To also dismiss the pain of how the season ended last year as simply "ehh, every team has memories", is also disingenuous at best. It's like you're too lazy to forge an actual argument so you just dismiss it instead.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
We had vets barely make the playoff from 1998 to 2003, yet they never stepped up. No reason to hope that happens now, not anymore than we can expect of other teams.
Again why, cause you say so? We aren't filled with egocentric aging vets who have no interest in building chemistry and a sense of team. You can't even begin to compare those vets with Cally, Dubi, Avery, Fedetenko, etc. Whole different club, whole different circumstance. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. But from what I've seen, read and heard so far, they most definitely seem like they're going to lead by example a bit more this year. Can only go by what I have to go by, but there's far more reasons to believe they will then to simply cop-out with an argument of "Our vets 10 years ago didn't, so why will they now?".


Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
3. Biron alone will give us 5-8 more wins this year? Really? Who can argue with that! In about 20 games, he will turn 5-8 would-be losses into wins? So about a third of the games he'll play, he'll steal a victory for us? How's he the backup then? Bench Lundqvist and let Biron play. Lundqvist sure does not steal a third of the games for us.
Wait, wasn't the last one point #3? Ehhh, I digress. Again, you're twisting my argument. Did I say 5-8 games? Oh, I didn't did I. I said possibly 5. And again, did you watch last year? Tell me; how well did our backups do last year? An experienced goaltender like Biron could absolutely have been the difference in some of those games. Maybe 2, maybe 3, maybe 5. I say 5 cause he'll play 20. Out of all the losses from our backups last year plus an overworked Hank, I don't see it as unreasonable whatsoever that an experienced Biron as a backup as well as a more rested Hank could net us 5 games. And again with your melodramatic point twisting. Who says he has to steal those games? He doesn't need to steal them, he merely needs to win them. And how on earth would doing so mean he all of a sudden should become our #1? And you wonder why we're having trouble taking you seriously?



Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
4. "We have Dubi on a mission. We have Cally on a mission. We have Avery on a mission."

And last year they were on vacation?
Your sarcasm, albeit mildly amusing, doesn't quite mask your complete lack of a return argument. Dubi and Cally each have one more year of experience under their belts as well as wanting to assume more leadership. Avery was totally out of place last year; totally out of character. There have been several positive signs to point to him playing like he had once played for us. He's looked amazing in camp. Course, you just want to ignore all that and pretend nothing's changed. Cause nothing ever changes right? Players never improve. Players never gain more experience. Players can't learn to be better leaders and play with more effort and desire right? Cause in your world, everything stays the same. Circumstances don't matter. Facts don't matter. History doesn't matter. Everything stays the same. I mean, Dubi and Cally, two young guys with talent and heart only several years old in the NHL, give us no reason to believe that they've matured at all or are even capable of doing so, right? To heck with looking at talented players early years stats and seeing that generally every single friggin year further into their careers they generally improve. Blech. Facts. Who needs 'em! Why have any reason to believe that Dubi or Cally would be improved this year? Believing is for sissies anyway. And Avery? Ahhhh, he's washed up right? What he was last year is alllllll he is right? Who cares about how well he's played, the condition he's in, how hard he worked in the offseason and the fact he's said all the right things. He's just the same as ever and couldn't possibly have matured either. Yup. We'll just ignore all that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
5. "Would I post "I eat crow" if I was wrong and you were right? You bet your ass I would. I would do that and more. Why? Cause like I said; I have integrity."

Last October I wrote the same thing about the Rangers: they will either fail to make the playoffs or make it and get destroyed, so we should just trade Higgins, Kotalik, Prospal, etc. I got the same response ithen as I am getting now. I expect next April to get the same non-response as last April.
Who cares? So you're perpetually cynical and then when we do poorly you think you deserve a pat on the back or something? Give me a break. In need of attention much? May every member of this forum read this here and now that if we do as poorly as you claim, I will eat crow and post it publicly in April k? I'll make sure you get your little time of attention. May they all call me out and run me off if I fail to deliver.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
6. "Who knows how this season will go. But sitting there with the impression of being on a high and mighty horse, acting like you're the one who's being rational while all of us being encouraged are out of whack and drinking kool aid, is quite misguided to put it bluntly."

I mentioned kool-aid because that's what I was told: if I don't believe the team is better, I am drinking Kool-Aid.

As for everything else, I'm arguing my position. So far, I've argued it on facts. When I was rude, it was in response to prior rudeness directed at me.
You've argued it on facts? What facts? All you've done is offer a bunch of cynical opinionated statements that you like to pass off as fact, while generally having arguments that amount to nothing more than "cause I say so". Sorry pal, but declaring "Frolov is of equal value to our club as kovalik and Higgins" is not a fact. A joke maybe, but definitely not a fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Quiet simply, I don't believe that a team with a rookie and a recent waiver pick up as centers on the first two lines has a chance in the playoffs against the Caps or the Pens, nor do I believe that Frolov is any kind of savior.
Seriously, you really watch and follow hockey a lot? You'd never know it since you have this silly notion that a rookie center couldn't possibly make a difference on the club. I mean, that's just never happened! Lunacy I tells ya!

And who the heck has claimed that Frolov has to be a savior? There you go just making up or exaggerating arguments again, just so you could pretend to have made a point. No one thinks him a savior. Does he add some vital scoring and give us a first line that could turn into a major threat? Hell yeah he does. Every little bit helps, and he's a welcome addition to our club and most definitely should help us win a few more games.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
The idea that someone who couldn't get himself a multi-year contract when he's in the prime of his career is a savior seems a little, how should I put it, Kool-Aid.

And there you go inventing arguments just to make it appear as though you've made a point. Who has claimed him a savior? C'mon, you just look silly now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
I'll be very glad if he has a great season, but if he were expected to have a great season, GMs would line up to sign him, rather than let him flap in the wind. No matter the FA environment, game-breakers do not sit and wait for someone to offer them a one-year deal.
You're right. I mean, cause you say so right? Picking up somebody we see potential in that others may not just never works out right? I mean hell, we should've kicked that Prospal bum right out to the curb last year. It's not like he was 2nd in points or something. Errrr, wait.... Oh yeah, he was. Scratch that.

You continue to underestimate Frolov. One would think that you haven't watched him play one preseason game. He's just a flappin in the wind nobody, so sayeth the great RangerEsq.

So listen, I wasn't impressed at all with your reply. It was just as expected: Nothing but complete dismissiveness on your part. Instead of looking at the argument inclusively, you broke it up into little points as if each part of my argument stood alone in giving us those 5-8 wins. Sorry pal, but that ain't reality. The reality is you had to do that in order to make it appear as if you had any argument left at all. The reality is, it wasn't each point exclusively that mattered but all points inclusively. But you couldn't argue it on those merits could you.

We've added more scoring. We have a rookie center who has consistently shown that he can lead and play when it counts, and who so far has seemed nothing but ready to play at this level. If he gets even more comfortable and can play as he has, then you bet your ass that's an improvement over last year.

Whether you like it or not, Frolov > Kotalik/Higgins; period.

Combine that with talented young vets who should improve every year, who have tremendous heart and desire to grow and lead, along with what should be a solid backup goaltender when last year our backups did jack crap, with a fresher more rested hank, an Avery that looks like he remembers how to be, well; Avery, A vet like Fedetenko who has looked amazing and may well be a sleeper pickup, players all around who for one reason or another are hungry and most importantly hungrier than last year (and yes, that matters. Sorry bub), the #1 intimidating player in the NHL there to make sure teams don't have their way with us by taking liberties as they please, players like Boyle who just seemed to have completely pushed themselves forward, a team that seems to finally be building a real identity and that just all around seems more dynamic, and you take all that TOGETHER, and a claim of winning 5-8 more games in a season of 82 is absolutely logical to expect. With all due respect, claiming we'll be the equivalent of last year and dismissing all those factors as irrelevant is really what is irrational to be quite honest.

And you still fail to see the biggest point in all of this: Last year there were probably 20 or more games that one stupid play cost us the win in. So many games that just the SLIGHTEST improvement in our club could've changed the outcome in. You seem to want to just ignore that fact completely. One goal. One turnover. One post. So many games that could've turned around so easily. And having that said; know what the biggest point that could be made in all of this is, that you seem to not realize? If we had the exact same team as last year play all the games again last year, that team AS THEY WERE could've won 5-8 more games by themselves! Yes, that many games were close. That many games were decided by a mere "oops". No improvements at all and just a bounce this way or that, a check here or there, one less soft goal or one more won faceoff, and with no difference in the team at all we might've won 5-8 more games.

So yeah, with the improvements in talent and attitude this year could all of it taken together yield us an additional 5-8 games over last year's performance? Easily.

I'll see you in april pal.


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10-03-2010, 12:43 AM
  #50
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IAMREALITY just killed it

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