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Old
10-03-2010, 01:13 PM
  #326
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Point is that Powe, for as little as it is, still produces at least a trace of offense, while Nodl does not, and does all the same things Nodl does better. It could be why Powe jumped ahead of Nodl getting to the NHL

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10-03-2010, 01:16 PM
  #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Point is that Powe, for as little as it is, still produces at least a trace of offense, while Nodl does not, and does all the same things Nodl does better. It could be why Powe jumped ahead of Nodl getting to the NHL
That we can agree on.

Powe is better than Nodl defensively.
Powe is more physical than Nodl.
Powe is faster and a slightly better skater than Nodl.
Powe at the moment has more offensive awareness than Nodl.

Nodl is a better passer.
Nodl is better along the boards.
Nodl is a more skilled offensive forward even though he does not understand just how to translate that into offense, whereas Powe understands his role and knows how to make it at least moderately productive on the stat sheet.

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10-03-2010, 01:19 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Powe does not have a better scoring "touch."

Powe drives the net and good things happen. Nodl needs to do the exact same thing. He needs to drive the net, he needs to shoot the puck, and he needs to work on getting those dirty goals. He is much more gifted than Powe with the puck, but everything he does along the boards needs to translate around the net.

Powe's offensive instincts are solid, but he doesn't have nearly enough skill to follow through.

Nodl has plenty of skill but none of the instincts.
Dude, seriously? Read this post again and really think it through, and ponder whether you're completely and utterly lacking in objectivity when you talk about Nodl.

While I would agree that Nodl has better hands than Powe, that doesn't mean he necessarily has a better scoring touch. Brendl had absolutely filthy hands, but that **** didn't work out for him.

I guess Dino Ciccarelli lacked scoring touch since he was basically a junkyard dog...

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Again, stats don't prove much.

Watching the way players play the game will tell you much more about a player defensively.

If all else fails you can take a good look on who the coach would count on in given situations.

It's much like the misinterpretation around here that Giroux is somehow not up to par defensively. If both are in the lineup, Laviolette would not hesitate to put either on the PK. That says a lot more than stats, particularly with quite a few gifted two-way forwards on our roster already.
1) Killing penalties is a different animal than playing even strength defense. Case in point, do you remember how atrocious RJ Umberger was defensively at even strength a couple years back, while being an excellent PKer? Playing a zone and filling lanes is a bit different from playing man-on-man and following the rotations.

Watch players in a game and you might understand that nuance.

2) Stats prove whether or not you're effective at what you're supposedly good at doing. If the other team is scoring on you at a prolific rate... and much higher than your teammates, then maybe you're not so good defensively.

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10-03-2010, 01:36 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Dude, seriously? Read this post again and really think it through, and ponder whether you're completely and utterly lacking in objectivity when you talk about Nodl.

While I would agree that Nodl has better hands than Powe, that doesn't mean he necessarily has a better scoring touch. Brendl had absolutely filthy hands, but that **** didn't work out for him.

I guess Dino Ciccarelli lacked scoring touch since he was basically a junkyard dog...
So you're complaining because we define a term differently?

That's basically what our argument amounts to at this point.

I think I don't need to say much to point out how pointless that is.

We basically agree.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
1) Killing penalties is a different animal than playing even strength defense. Case in point, do you remember how atrocious RJ Umberger was defensively at even strength a couple years back, while being an excellent PKer? Playing a zone and filling lanes is a bit different from playing man-on-man and following the rotations.
Agreed. It is possible to be a good penalty killer and not as hot defensively at even strength.

I think however that the examples of such a thing are few and far between.

In the end, I consider both Giroux and Nodl defensively responsible at even strength. Stats support your argument and watching games/coaching decisions supports mine.

You can say that the stats are more telling if you want but don't forget that mistakes can be made by other people on the ice. Giroux and Nodl's defensive competency cannot and should not be boiled down to whether or not Krajicek, Parent, or Bartulis were on the ice at the same time, nor should it account for Asham and JVR (in Giroux's case), both of which are not exactly prime defensive candidates.

Granted, I will say that the center holds the majority of the responsibility, but again, just because there are some instances where a player is not solid defensively at even strength while very good at the PK, it does not mean that all players who are counted on for the PK without a very good GAON/60 are deficient defensively.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Watch players in a game and you might understand that nuance.
I assure you that I watch closely.

You wouldn't like it if I told you to watch a game to understand what I'm saying, so why would you say that to me. You should be well aware that I watch quite a few games on numerous levels of competition at this point.

I'm not trying to be rude, so don't be rude to me.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
2) Stats prove whether or not you're effective at what you're supposedly good at doing. If the other team is scoring on you at a prolific rate... and much higher than your teammates, then maybe you're not so good defensively.
Again, stats can lie by a substantial amount.

Another thing to point out is just about how intangible defensive stats are. It's not like scoring where you can just throw a number of assists and goals per whatever amount of time to get a production baseline.

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10-03-2010, 02:04 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
So you're complaining because we define a term differently?

That's basically what our argument amounts to at this point.

I think I don't need to say much to point out how pointless that is.

We basically agree.
No we don't. You argued that Powe doesn't have better scoring touch... at the NHL level he's demonstrated significantly better scoring touch. In your heart of hearts you may think/hope Nodl has better scoring touch, but aesthetics aren't production.



Quote:
Agreed. It is possible to be a good penalty killer and not as hot defensively at even strength.

I think however that the examples of such a thing are few and far between.
...happens all the time. Martin St Louis, for example, has been an exceptional PKer in his career, but he's not a great defensive player at even strength. Lots of examples if you felt like scavenging. Often good defensive players are good PKers... which spawns the belief that there is some direct connection, but there really isn't.

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In the end, I consider both Giroux and Nodl defensively responsible at even strength. Stats support your argument and watching games/coaching decisions supports mine.
Or your bias does. Until you produce good defense... you're not really good defensively. Again, this isn't a judged event. It's a results oriented game, and production, not aesthetics, is how players need to be judged.

If you want observed opinion to be the definitive factor in judging athletes, figure skating is out there.

Quote:
You can say that the stats are more telling if you want but don't forget that mistakes can be made by other people on the ice. Giroux and Nodl's defensive competency cannot and should not be boiled down to whether or not Krajicek, Parent, or Bartulis were on the ice at the same time, nor should it account for Asham and JVR (in Giroux's case), both of which are not exactly prime defensive candidates.

Granted, I will say that the center holds the majority of the responsibility, but again, just because there are some instances where a player is not solid defensively at even strength while very good at the PK, it does not mean that all players who are counted on for the PK without a very good GAON/60 are deficient defensively.
Well, are you going to blame D for Nodl's problems in all 48 games he's played in the NHL? This is where I begin to question whether you really understand how stats and sample size get implemented. There is context for each instance (goal against) that may or may not be the fault of an individual player... but as sample size increases, that noise gets washed out more and more.

We also don't have data for how many times a player gets his ass saved by someone else on the ice... like Matt Carle, for example.

Quote:
I assure you that I watch closely.

You wouldn't like it if I told you to watch a game to understand what I'm saying, so why would you say that to me. You should be well aware that I watch quite a few games on numerous levels of competition at this point.

I'm not trying to be rude, so don't be rude to me.
Your argument above boiled down to: if you watch the games closely, you will agree with me:

Quote:
Watching the way players play the game will tell you much more about a player defensively.
Your eyes lie to you much more than stats, dude. Your eyes suffer from objectivity problems that empirical stats do not. Nodl can look good doing whatever he's doing... simple fact: the other team has scored much more often when he's on the ice than when his teammates have been on the ice.

Quote:
Again, stats can lie by a substantial amount.

Another thing to point out is just about how intangible defensive stats are. It's not like scoring where you can just throw a number of assists and goals per whatever amount of time to get a production baseline.
No, they can't. Especially when you're talking about a purely empirical stat like GAON/60. That isn't about intangibles, that's about how often the other team scores on your team while you're on the ice.

You can't dismiss that as a "lie." Especially in 48 games... maybe he improves and starts to turn that stat around. However, particularly two season ago when he played a significant number of games... Nodl was *ing awful defensively.

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10-03-2010, 03:20 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No we don't. You argued that Powe doesn't have better scoring touch... at the NHL level he's demonstrated significantly better scoring touch. In your heart of hearts you may think/hope Nodl has better scoring touch, but aesthetics aren't production.
No he does not.

Scoring "touch" is not based on the number of goals you score but instead the talent you have to get those goals.

You clearly just said that Powe does not get his goals with talent, he gets them with hardwork and tenacity.

Scorer's "touch" refers to the particular talent of Jeff Carter to score goals, not his offensive production.



I'll deal with the rest of your argument later.

I haven't read it, and I don't have the time to argue around in circles with you.


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10-03-2010, 07:50 PM
  #332
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Bill Guerin sucks

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10-03-2010, 07:59 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
Bill Guerin sucks
I honestly wanted too post this exact statement, but I refrained.

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10-03-2010, 08:20 PM
  #334
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another day, and nothing has changed. Nodl does not belong on a scoring line.

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10-03-2010, 08:24 PM
  #335
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I honestly wanted too post this exact statement, but I refrained.
330+ posts of bickering and ********, all that needs to be said is, Bill Guerin sucks.

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10-03-2010, 08:30 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
another day, and nothing has changed. Nodl does not belong on a scoring line.
But we still have a far better shot of other people on our team scoring when he's on the ice as opposed to Guerin.

We also have a far better shot of less non-Flyers scoring against us when he's on the ice as opposed to Guerin.

In that light though, Maroon looked awesome. Well, until he crashed face first into the boards.

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10-03-2010, 08:38 PM
  #337
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No matter what happens, the Log of **** given to the worst game performer should be renamed the Bill Guerin Award.

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10-03-2010, 08:38 PM
  #338
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Why didn't we give Owen Nolan a PTO? Gaurentee he would have earned a spot on this club

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10-03-2010, 08:40 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
No he does not.

Scoring "touch" is not based on the number of goals you score but instead the talent you have to get those goals.

You clearly just said that Powe does not get his goals with talent, he gets them with hardwork and tenacity.

Scorer's "touch" refers to the particular talent of Jeff Carter to score goals, not his offensive production.



I'll deal with the rest of your argument later.

I haven't read it, and I don't have the time to argue around in circles with you.
You really need to sit down and ponder how stupid that statement is.

Scorer's "touch" is about scoring goals. You don't get points for style in the NHL. Did John LeClair lack scoring touch? If you have the ability to score, no matter how you might do it, then you have a scorer's touch. Cuz, ya know, you score some goals.

Again, we're not talking figure skating here. No one cares how you look... they care how you produce.

Unless your argument is that there is some magical (no-talent) quality that puts the puck in the net for some people...

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10-03-2010, 08:43 PM
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You really need to sit down and ponder how stupid that statement is.

Scorer's "touch" is about scoring goals. You don't get points for style in the NHL. Did John LeClair lack scoring touch? If you have the ability to score, no matter how you might do it, then you have a scorer's touch. Cuz, ya know, you score some goals.

Again, we're not talking figure skating here. No one cares how you look... they care how you produce.

Unless your argument is that there is some magical (no-talent) quality that puts the puck in the net for some people...
So you are saying that you'd rather have Mike Knuble than Rob Schremp?

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10-03-2010, 08:43 PM
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You really need to sit down and ponder how stupid that statement is.

Scorer's "touch" is about scoring goals. You don't get points for style in the NHL. Did John LeClair lack scoring touch? If you have the ability to score, no matter how you might do it, then you have a scorer's touch. Cuz, ya know, you score some goals.

Again, we're not talking figure skating here. No one cares how you look... they care how you produce.

Unless your argument is that there is some magical (no-talent) quality that puts the puck in the net for some people...
Offensive "touch" is stickhandling, passing, boardwork, shooting, etc.

Scoring "touch" is generating offensive using offensive "touch."

It has nothing to do with production by checking people, ignoring the puck, and having it bounce in front of the net where someone bats it home ala Riley Cote.

Did you see Powe's shot tonight? I don't know how you didn't laugh if you did.

Nodl can shoot. I've seen it. Unfortunately, it might take an act of god to make him shoot in a real game. He's the most indecisive person when he gets within 10 feet of the crease. I've never seen anything like it.

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10-03-2010, 08:44 PM
  #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
But we still have a far better shot of other people on our team scoring when he's on the ice as opposed to Guerin.

We also have a far better shot of less non-Flyers scoring against us when he's on the ice as opposed to Guerin.

In that light though, Maroon looked awesome. Well, until he crashed face first into the boards.
never said I wanted Guerin on this team. I hope Holmstrom makes it in over him.

I already said I am fine with Nodl on this team. Just not on a scoring line.
but if Nodl is on this team where does Jody "the superstar" Shelley play?

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10-03-2010, 08:47 PM
  #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
But we still have a far better shot of other people on our team scoring when he's on the ice as opposed to Guerin.

We also have a far better shot of less non-Flyers scoring against us when he's on the ice as opposed to Guerin.


In that light though, Maroon looked awesome. Well, until he crashed face first into the boards.
Based on what? Your heterosexual man-crush on an AHL player?

Only players you were less likely to see a goal scored with them on the ice last year: Ryan Parent, Ross, and Cote

Year before: Boyd Kane , Nate Guenin, Nate Raduns, Jared Ross, and David Sloane.

Yes, when Nodl played 38 games in the NHL... you were more likely to see a goal scored with Riley Cote.

We'll leave aside the relatively obvious point that Nodl has been torched at the NHL level defensively to this point.

Now, he may begin to move past all of that... but there is zero evidence supporting those claims other than the fantasy version of Nodl that you've constructed in your head.

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10-03-2010, 08:48 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
never said I wanted Guerin on this team. I hope Holmstrom makes it in over him.

I already said I am fine with Nodl on this team. Just not on a scoring line.
but if Nodl is on this team where does Jody "the superstar" Shelley play?
Same place Raul Ibanez plays.

I'm not impressed with him either.

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10-03-2010, 08:48 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Based on what? Your heterosexual man-crush on an AHL player?

Only players you were less likely to see a goal scored with them on the ice last year: Ryan Parent, Ross, and Cote

Year before: Boyd Kane , Nate Guenin, Nate Raduns, Jared Ross, and David Sloane.

Yes, when Nodl played 38 games in the NHL... you were more likely to see a goal scored with Riley Cote.

We'll leave aside the relatively obvious point that Nodl has been torched at the NHL level defensively to this point.

Now, he may begin to move past all of that... but there is zero evidence supporting those claims other than the fantasy version of Nodl that you've constructed in your head.
I'm not arguing with a child. Grow up and then we'll talk.

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10-03-2010, 08:49 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Offensive "touch" is stickhandling, passing, boardwork, shooting, etc.

Scoring "touch" is generating offensive using offensive "touch."

It has nothing to do with production by checking people, ignoring the puck, and having it bounce in front of the net where someone bats it home ala Riley Cote.

Did you see Powe's shot tonight? I don't know how you didn't laugh if you did.

Nodl can shoot. I've seen it. Unfortunately, it might take an act of god to make him shoot in a real game. He's the most indecisive person when he gets within 10 feet of the crease. I've never seen anything like it.
Oh, here I was thinking John Leclair had scoring touch around the net with that pitch-fork of a stick he used.

Silly me.

No one *ing cares what you can do in a skill competition man. It does not matter one iota when they drop the puck in game conditions. Nodl can shoot. *ing great, put the puck in the net. Until you do that, you don't get credit for having "scoring touch," cuz people with scoring touch score goals.

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10-03-2010, 08:52 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I'm not arguing with a child. Grow up and then we'll talk.
Seriously? That's all you got?

You spout complete and utter factual bull**** to support opinions that are homeristic fantasies about prospects you like. Just own it man.

There is zero evidence supporting the crap you're saying about Nodl. None. There's nothing childish about noting the fact that you're full of ****.

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10-03-2010, 09:08 PM
  #348
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I'm not arguing with a child. Grow up and then we'll talk.
I can't even begin to describe how hilarious this statement is coming from you. I'm not sure I've ever seen someone so delusional and misguidedly arrogant. It's truly astonishing. Furthermore, I'm willing to bet Jester is older than you and has much more impressive credentials, not to mention vastly superior skills when it comes to the art of debate.

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10-03-2010, 09:26 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Seriously? That's all you got?

You spout complete and utter factual bull**** to support opinions that are homeristic fantasies about prospects you like. Just own it man.

There is zero evidence supporting the crap you're saying about Nodl. None. There's nothing childish about noting the fact that you're full of ****.
This is exactly what I mean about childish.

You can go off about "heterosexual mancrushes" and insult me, but I'm not going to insult you back.

Why? Just so you can say that I'm arrogant and acting like as much of a child as you are now; representing my position poorly?

No thanks. I've learned my lesson. If you want to have a real discussion, then we'll have a real discussion, but I'm not playing your games until you start acting like a grown up. I'm being completely serious. I'm sick of dealing with this nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
I can't even begin to describe how hilarious this statement is coming from you. I'm not sure I've ever seen someone so delusional and misguidedly arrogant. It's truly astonishing. Furthermore, I'm willing to bet Jester is older than you and has much more impressive credentials, not to mention vastly superior skills when it comes to the art of debate.
This is exactly what I'm talking about.



I do find it funny that I have to pull punches in arguments to keep my position when people can just insult me for the fun of it. You guys really don't understand how annoying it is trying to make a point on here while trying to keep from offending anyone.

Hell, half of your arguments are insults. That's what I mean about acting childish. This has nothing to do with age.

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10-03-2010, 09:37 PM
  #350
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ladies ladies ladies....

Can we save some of this pent-up fire for Thursday night?

I think almost all of us can agree that once our lineup is healthy, that Nodl, Guerin, or Shelley won't fit anywhere. And until that point of health, we have a great coach who will combat our GM's painful decisions with bright ones of his own.

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