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Old
10-05-2010, 12:41 PM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You should be more concerned that we're running a midget lineup of centers, and our best faceoff guy is playing wing (also our leading goal scorer the last two years as a center, now at wing).

It will be interesting to see how these lineups play out...
I guess Lavy isnt concerned at the moment. He is hoping the playoff magic continues for that line, and really who could blame him?

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10-05-2010, 12:45 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I guess Lavy isnt concerned at the moment. He is hoping the playoff magic continues for that line, and really who could blame him?
I'm less concerned about Briere getting tried at center to see what happens than I am with the continued Giroux at center experiment...

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10-05-2010, 12:46 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I'm less concerned about Briere getting tried at center to see what happens than I am with the continued Giroux at center experiment...
So far Stevens AND Lavy have seen him at the center position. Lavy has been pretty good so far, so if he thinks he can get more out of Giroux at center then at wing, Ill believe him.

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10-05-2010, 12:48 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
I know most people want hartnell-Briere-Leino Together for nostalgia, but I (and I assume you do to) think it would be better to keep Briere at RW, rather than Carter.

JVR-Richards-Carcillo/Powe/Chris Schafer's Mancrush
Leino-Carter-Briere
Hartnell-Giroux-Zherdev

Carter and Briere played well together last year, and we can keep Leino there to see if he and briere can do well together again.

or if Giroux and Z dont work out longterm:

JVR-Richards-Giroux
Hartnell-Briere-Leino
Carcillo-Carter-Zherdev
I think we're better off with Briere at wing long term, yes. However, I also think we're better off long term with Giroux at wing. It is what it is, given the commitment to a true "scoring" line as our third, as opposed to more of a two-way physical line.

I mean, looking at our current lineup... Richards and Carter are going to have to be our matchup line when necessary. Which is nice and all, but those are our two best forwards and you're essentially putting them both in a situation where you can't put 'em out to take advantage of good matchups going the other direction.

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10-05-2010, 12:51 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
So far Stevens AND Lavy have seen him at the center position. Lavy has been pretty good so far, so if he thinks he can get more out of Giroux at center then at wing, Ill believe him.
Lavy also ditched Giroux from center whenever there were tough center matchups last year... and he was repeatedly put with Richards and Gagne early on in the year. Which largely didn't work because Gagne was a *ing mess until after the Olympics and Richards was forcing ever pass to him.

In all seriousness... 47 pts and a -9 doesn't impress me.

And, yes, you can (theoretically) get more offensive production out of any player at center... they're in the middle of the ice and touch the puck more.

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10-05-2010, 01:06 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Didnt see this anywhere but here were the lineups for today's practice:

Leino-Briere-Hartnell
Carcillo-Richards-Carter
JVR-Giroux-Zherdev
Shelly-Betts/Powe-Powe/Nodl

Pronger-Carle
Timonen-Coburn
Meszaros-O'Donnell
I like it. I like it alot. If those lines stay together any length of time the Giroux group could be the best of the bunch. If we stay healthy this will a tough team to check. Insert a healthy Lappy (we can always dream right) and we'd be even harder to play.

I don't like Carter on the wing but I don't like Richards, Giroux or Briere at wing either so this is the least of several evils.

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10-05-2010, 02:25 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Lavy also ditched Giroux from center whenever there were tough center matchups last year... and he was repeatedly put with Richards and Gagne early on in the year. Which largely didn't work because Gagne was a *ing mess until after the Olympics and Richards was forcing ever pass to him.

In all seriousness... 47 pts and a -9 doesn't impress me.

And, yes, you can (theoretically) get more offensive production out of any player at center... they're in the middle of the ice and touch the puck more.
For a 22 year old that has to compete with seven other top six players (more then any other team) and has only one and half seasons worth of NHL experience, that's pretty decent. I don't know how you can be disappointed with that (I know you didn't say disappointed though).

Combine all that with his amazing playoff runs and the fact that he's constantly having his position flip-flopped (which is another thing working against him) and I'm very impressed with him.

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10-05-2010, 03:04 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
For a 22 year old that has to compete with seven other top six players (more then any other team) and has only one and half seasons worth of NHL experience, that's pretty decent. I don't know how you can be disappointed with that (I know you didn't say disappointed though).

Combine all that with his amazing playoff runs and the fact that he's constantly having his position flip-flopped (which is another thing working against him) and I'm very impressed with him.
When Mike Richards was 22 y/o he put up 28-47-75 +14

We had folks comparing Giroux to Hemsky around here.

Hemsky at 22: 19-58-77 -5.

Guy I actually think is a very good comparison for Giroux's career potential:

Scott Gomez at 22 potted similar numbers, but was coming off 70 and 63 point seasons as a 20 and 21 y/o.

22 y/o ain't that young for scoring players, particularly the smallish/quick variety that tend to develop faster than the bigger guys because they don't rely on strength to get their **** done. I certainly expect Giroux to improve and have a very solid NHL career offensively, but his age, in itself, isn't necessarily an excuse for his relatively modest offensive totals (and, frankly, defense with Giroux is a bigger concern for me).

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10-05-2010, 03:06 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
When Mike Richards was 22 y/o he put up 28-47-75 +14

We had folks comparing Giroux to Hemsky around here.

Hemsky at 22: 19-58-77 -5.

Guy I actually think is a very good comparison for Giroux's career potential:

Scott Gomez at 22 potted similar numbers, but was coming off 70 and 63 point seasons as a 20 and 21 y/o.

22 y/o ain't that young for scoring players, particularly the smallish/quick variety that tend to develop faster than the bigger guys because they don't rely on strength to get their **** done. I certainly expect Giroux to improve and have a very solid NHL career offensively, but his age, in itself, isn't necessarily an excuse for his relatively modest offensive totals (and, frankly, defense with Giroux is a bigger concern for me).
It's pretty convenient how you cherry-picked his age and ignored every other part of my valid reasoning.

Beyond that, it seems that you're also cherry-picking players that have had better seasons at his age just to support your own argument rather then realizing that every player develops at his own pace in his own unique situation.

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10-05-2010, 03:21 PM
  #160
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Once the magic of the Hartnell-Briere-Leino line wears off, I fully expect Lavy to go with this lineup.

JVR-Richards-Leino
Hartnell-Carter-Briere
Nodl-Giroux-Zherdev
Shelly-Betts/Powe-Carcillo

Pronger-Carle
Timonen-Coburn
Meszaros-O'Donnell

Basically, there is no reason why Richards and Carter shouldn't be our top 2 centers. They are by far our best players, probably on both sides of the ice, and the lineup should be built around them.

Briere is a much better winger IMHO.

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10-05-2010, 03:38 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
When Mike Richards was 22 y/o he put up 28-47-75 +14

We had folks comparing Giroux to Hemsky around here.

Hemsky at 22: 19-58-77 -5.

Guy I actually think is a very good comparison for Giroux's career potential:

Scott Gomez at 22 potted similar numbers, but was coming off 70 and 63 point seasons as a 20 and 21 y/o.

22 y/o ain't that young for scoring players, particularly the smallish/quick variety that tend to develop faster than the bigger guys because they don't rely on strength to get their **** done. I certainly expect Giroux to improve and have a very solid NHL career offensively, but his age, in itself, isn't necessarily an excuse for his relatively modest offensive totals (and, frankly, defense with Giroux is a bigger concern for me).
Your off by a year on your stats.


Richards was born in February of 1985 so that means during the season of 07-08, he started off 22 years old, and midway turned 23. That was his breakout year scoring 75 points. When he was 21 years old, he only had 34 points playing on the 3rd line.

Giroux was born on January 1988, so that means he will start off this season as a 22 year old, and midway turn 23. So that means this season would be almost EXACTLY on track as Richards season. Last season, his first full NHL season, he started off as a 21 yr old, and turned 22 midway. Last season he had 47 points playing mostly on the 3rd line.

It isnt bad to criticize a player Jester, but everytime you complain about his size. We know your really big on size with a player, but not all NHL players need size to succeed. Its not bad to say how a player needs to work, but most things you say about Giroux are negative.

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10-05-2010, 03:38 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
The weird thing about the Flyers is that, for some reason, they still lack an identity. Now, Homer and Snider really want to inject as much grit as possible but grit without talent just doesn't work anymore.

So, we have 2.5 scoring lines and a 4th line that will be taking a major hit if Lappy is done and Shelley receives major playing time. It won't be a horrible 4th line by any means but it will no longer be the best in the league, which ours was last season.

We have a glut of centers but no true 3rd line types, which are exceedingly valuable in the playoffs. Now, we could just have three scoring lines but that means throwing Nodl or Carcillo or someone even worse offensively onto a scoring line.

And key faceoffs will likely be an issue once again. Especially if Carter plays wing and takes fewer draws.

Now, this isn't meant to be doom and gloom as our offense should be potent (but losing Gagne for nothing is still inexcusable) and our defense, while ageing, will be excellent.
I agree. This is exactly how I think of this team.

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Originally Posted by mypunkrock View Post
I think of another guy coming out of college who was hyped big time, and everybody freaked out because after 30 odd games he didn't accomplish a damn thing until April.

That is why Testwuide isn't getting a shot now.
And your point is? Nodl is going to turn into an offensive powerhouse or something?

Really, it's not very clear. I'm not even sure who you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Nobody is shaken up that Nodl is on the team, because really hes better than Guerin and around the same as the other kids.

Its just that we dont get all excited about seeing a player with 1 goal in 50 games making our team. I dont "hate" Nodl, but overhyping him just makes me dislike him even more
Exactly. People are acting like Nodl is about to bust wide ****ing open or something. When the reality is, he doesn't open up the ice, he doesn't create chances, he doesn't shoot, he is not great at covering his man/zone, etc. Really no excuse to get excited over him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You should be more concerned that we're running a midget lineup of centers, and our best faceoff guy is playing wing (also our leading goal scorer the last two years as a center, now at wing).

It will be interesting to see how these lineups play out...
Carter at wing is a terrible experiment (at least I pray it's an experiment).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
I know most people want hartnell-Briere-Leino Together for nostalgia, but I (and I assume you do to) think it would be better to keep Briere at RW, rather than Carter.

JVR-Richards-Carcillo/Powe/Chris Schafer's Mancrush
Leino-Carter-Briere
Hartnell-Giroux-Zherdev

Carter and Briere played well together last year, and we can keep Leino there to see if he and briere can do well together again.

or if Giroux and Z dont work out longterm:

JVR-Richards-Giroux
Hartnell-Briere-Leino
Carcillo-Carter-Zherdev
Briere seems to create a lot on the wing, whereas at center, he is forcing the play between the defensemen and getting closed out a lot. At wing, we have seen he can laser one in or cycle to create some openings.

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10-05-2010, 04:45 PM
  #163
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So, he is "nothing great." Then why waste time on him at the NHL level when other forwards (Testwuide, for example) turned a lot of heads and created a lot of chances?
That was just your imagination. Testwuide gives up in a lot of areas that Nodl excels at, and it's not like Testwuide was making a lot happen.

Neither was Holmstrom for that matter, but people pick their players to focus on.

Usually if someone unexpected throws a big hit and leaves people wondering just who this guy is, it's a safe bet that this board will be gushing about him for a while.

I'm not saying it's completely unwarranted because Testwuide and Holmstrom had strong preseasons, but I can say with pretty solid confidence that Nodl had a better camp/preseason than both of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwood View Post
I don't hate Nodl. I'm honestly pulling for him because I think he could do better. But he has done nothing. Ever. Literally, he has 1 goal and 4 assists in 48 games. He is -17 for his NHL career. Add that to a -10 with the Phantoms.

Sure, he'll eat some 4th line minutes where it's really not all that important to score or create a ton of chances, but he is a defensive liability.
Again, Nodl is not a defensive liability, but I guess people are going to think what they want.

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10-05-2010, 04:50 PM
  #164
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Again, Nodl is not a defensive liability, but I guess people are going to think what they want.
Well, Jester just gave you hard evidence that this has yet to be proven. He may or may not be a defensive liability. That's something he's going to have to show in games that count now.

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10-05-2010, 04:53 PM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
That was just your imagination. Testwuide gives up in a lot of areas that Nodl excels at, and it's not like Testwuide was making a lot happen.

Neither was Holmstrom for that matter, but people pick their players to focus on.

Usually if someone unexpected throws a big hit and leaves people wondering just who this guy is, it's a safe bet that this board will be gushing about him for a while.

I'm not saying it's completely unwarranted because Testwuide and Holmstrom had strong preseasons, but I can say with pretty solid confidence that Nodl had a better camp/preseason than both of them.




Again, Nodl is not a defensive liability, but I guess people are going to think what they want.
100% disagree on Holmstrom's case. Holmstrom was making things happen (and also had 1 point) playing with guys like Shelly, Powe, Guerin, Testwuide, and probablly the "best" guy out of them all Hartnell. Nodl on the other hand went a -1, with 0 points, playing with guys like Richards, Giroux, Briere, Carter, etc etc.

He was as good, in my opinion,or better defensively then Nodl was. He saved Leightons ass more times then not. I cant really say I remember seeing Nodl coming in and making a great pokecheck that saved them from scoring a goal. Holmstrom did it his first game, when I think it was when Langenbrunner tried to do a wrap around on Leighton, Leights didnt see and Holmstrom came in and poked it away quickly.


Now, I was defending Nodl earlier in this thread, just because I can already see Carcillo slowing the Carter and Richards line down ALOT. There was a reason that line was broken up a few days after they tried it last year, and contrary to many beliefs it wasnt just Carter. But the thing is, I wouldnt even be that happy to see Nodl playing in the top 9. This season, if he plays around 50 or so games, I can MAYBE see him hitting 10 points if he's lucky.

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10-05-2010, 04:55 PM
  #166
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Well, Jester just gave you hard evidence that this has yet to be proven. He may or may not be a defensive liability. That's something he's going to have to show in games that count now.
he didn't make me nervous last year in the playoffs. do those games count enough?

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10-05-2010, 05:04 PM
  #167
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he didn't make me nervous last year in the playoffs. do those games count enough?
Touche, let's hope we still have Jared Ross on speed dial.

There's still a very good chance that he isn't going to be in the opening-night lineup, so the point is to cool the jets. If it's as its being made, he wouldn't have been competing for a roster spot.

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10-05-2010, 05:07 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
That was just your imagination. Testwuide gives up in a lot of areas that Nodl excels at, and it's not like Testwuide was making a lot happen.

Neither was Holmstrom for that matter, but people pick their players to focus on.

Usually if someone unexpected throws a big hit and leaves people wondering just who this guy is, it's a safe bet that this board will be gushing about him for a while.

I'm not saying it's completely unwarranted because Testwuide and Holmstrom had strong preseasons, but I can say with pretty solid confidence that Nodl had a better camp/preseason than both of them.



Again, Nodl is not a defensive liability, but I guess people are going to think what they want.
The only thing Nodl excells is is not putting up assists or goals.

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10-05-2010, 05:17 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
It's pretty convenient how you cherry-picked his age and ignored every other part of my valid reasoning.

Beyond that, it seems that you're also cherry-picking players that have had better seasons at his age just to support your own argument rather then realizing that every player develops at his own pace in his own unique situation.
Cherry-picking? I picked Hemsky -- a guy you were having a conversation about the other day in which Giroux was compared to him -- A guy on our own team... and a guy I actually think is a VERY good comparison for Giroux in Gomez (a slick playmaker with a terrible shot).

And I didn't cherry pick his age. You led your statement by citing his age as something to put his production in perspective... well, his age isn't all that good an indicator, frankly.

Top scorers last year (do they support Giroux's age being relevant to his production)
Henrik Sedin (works in Giroux's favor on the age front)
Crosby (nope)
Ovechkin (nope)
Backstrom (nope)
Stamkos (nope)
Martin St Louis (didn't bust out til he was 27)
Brad Richards (nope)
Joe Thornton (nope, and he did struggle comparatively... was a PPG player)
Patrick Kane (nope)
Gaborik (nope)

Now, I don't think it would be fair to compare Giroux to any of these players necessarily... but scoring ability manifests much earlier than people seem to realize. 22 y/o isn't "young" to be putting up numbers, and can't be used as a defense for him. A LOT of young players put up solid numbers in this league... especially if they're getting the pimping that Giroux has been getting.

And you want me to address your other points...

Quote:
compete with seven other top six players (more then any other team)
What? Giroux took a regular shift and played almost 3 minutes a game on the PP. This is an excuse for JVR, who got limited shifts and almost no PP time. It is not an excuse for Giroux.

Quote:
has only one and half seasons worth of NHL experience
Mostly because he failed to make a roster that everyone pretty much expected him to make.

However, lets get to the real crux of the issue... it seems pretty clear Giroux got worn down. He had a fantastic November and December, and then was absolutely awful in January (3-2-5 -8), mediocre in February (1-3-4 +2 in 7 games), god *ing awful in March (2-5-7 -10), and caught a second wind in April heading into the playoffs.

JVR did a similar routine, but that was to be expected given the incredible increase in hockey play... but Giroux played a similar grind the year before, so stamina shouldn't have been an issue.

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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Your off by a year on your stats.
No, I'm just using the age by season from hockey-reference because I don't feel like doing birthday comparisons for every player I want to look at.

Quote:
Richards was born in February of 1985 so that means during the season of 07-08, he started off 22 years old, and midway turned 23. That was his breakout year scoring 75 points. When he was 21 years old, he only had 34 points playing on the 3rd line.
Richards actually began to tear it up the year before in the second half of the season when he got out of the terrible funk that began the year. Putting up 21 pts in the final 25 games of the year, which then continued into the following year.

Quote:
...Its not bad to say how a player needs to work, but most things you say about Giroux are negative.
So, to be clear, I've been pretty consistent in stating I think Giroux is going to be a 60-70 pt a year player at the least, IMO, and, to quote you, "most things you say about Giroux are negative."

You think 60-70 pts is "negative." OK.

I think we need to differentiate between "negative" and "not providing ********."

I think Giroux is going to provide some offense, and have some problems in the other direction if he remains at center. I have deep concerns about his ability to sustain his style of play in this league at his size... especially down the middle where you take more of a beating.

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10-05-2010, 05:23 PM
  #170
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Here is an interresting formula I'm working on. tell me where I'm wrong:

-Lappy+Shelly+Nodl+improved JVR+healthy top8=less playing time for the 4th line than last year.

At least to start.

I think the Shelly dimension completely changes how that line will be used.

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10-05-2010, 05:27 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by jd2210 View Post
Here is an interresting formula I'm working on. tell me where I'm wrong:

-Lappy+Shelly+Nodl+improved JVR+healthy top8=less playing time for the 4th line than last year.

At least to start.

I think the Shelly dimension completely changes how that line will be used.
It should. Our 4th line of Lappy-Betts-Carcillo was *ing fantastic and earned its minutes out there before Carcillo moved up the lineup.

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10-05-2010, 05:43 PM
  #172
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anyone remember how good JVR-Richards-Giroux looked when it was together for awhile last year? They didnt score much but they looked awesome

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10-05-2010, 06:08 PM
  #173
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The only thing Nodl excells is is not putting up assists or goals.
What do you honestly expect from him production wise? Give him some time and see how he performs first. I am excited for him, he won the spot cleanly and now he will have the opportunity to skate on 4th/3rd line.

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10-05-2010, 06:12 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
What do you honestly expect from him production wise? Give him some time and see how he performs first. I am excited for him, he won the spot cleanly and now he will have the opportunity to skate on 4th/3rd line.
Some semblence of an offensive game. That isnt a lot to ask for. I dont thinkhe will play anyway and be the 13th forward. It will be interesting as the coaches it seemed wanted Guerin. The GM said nope. The GM signed Shelley. will the coach play him? Maybe a litte friction between the two?

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10-05-2010, 06:16 PM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
That was just your imagination. Testwuide gives up in a lot of areas that Nodl excels at, and it's not like Testwuide was making a lot happen.
More than Nodl. Testwuide was just an example, anyway. There are a few to pick from.

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Neither was Holmstrom for that matter, but people pick their players to focus on.
Yeah, you know, because he was doing more to be focused on.

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Usually if someone unexpected throws a big hit and leaves people wondering just who this guy is, it's a safe bet that this board will be gushing about him for a while.
Except, I don't. I'm honestly trying to look at what is best for this team. Sure, it's nice to see bone crushing hits, but it's so much better when they disrupt scoring chances, etc.

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I'm not saying it's completely unwarranted because Testwuide and Holmstrom had strong preseasons, but I can say with pretty solid confidence that Nodl had a better camp/preseason than both of them.
Yet both have better stats and got considerable attention compared to Nodl.

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Again, Nodl is not a defensive liability, but I guess people are going to think what they want.
Though I think Nodl can put out a strong defensive presence if he works hard enough, but we have yet to see many of his defensive skills play out.

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