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Preseason Bill Guerin thread.. (Post #405 Guerin Released)

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Old
10-05-2010, 03:16 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
COuld you imagine the fwd they could have brought in if they had not traded for Meszaros? The logic is that is was to create cap space by moving Gagne, but it makes no sense.
They could have just kept Gagne.

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10-05-2010, 03:56 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Actually, what really irked people (especially me) was the cap management stupidity that was going on.

He followed through on that end of it with the Meszaros trade.
He only traded for Meszaros after he couldn't land Hamhuis, so getting angry at that trade before it happens seems very interesting. Do you have psychic powers?

The complaints about moving Parent to try and land Hamhius has almost nothing to do with whatever shortcomings he has with cap management.

This happened PRE free agency.

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10-05-2010, 04:04 PM
  #478
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It was stupid to trade for Meszaros on Jul1 before any D men signed.

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10-05-2010, 05:24 PM
  #479
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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
He only traded for Meszaros after he couldn't land Hamhuis, so getting angry at that trade before it happens seems very interesting. Do you have psychic powers?

The complaints about moving Parent to try and land Hamhius has almost nothing to do with whatever shortcomings he has with cap management.

This happened PRE free agency.
He traded Parent with the intention of signing Hamhuis and said he wasn't going to trade any of our other D. That was specifically what was causing a lot of the angst. If you go back you'll actually find a lot of people stating that they like the deal in the event Carle (or Coburn, but preferably Carle) got moved for other assets so the D didn't get bogged down with an absurd cap hit.

So, when he realized he couldn't get Hamhuis signed he deals him for a 3rd (still would have preferred to have Parent as a cheap potential 3rd pairing guy at this point) and turns around to replace the stupid cap management that Hamhuis was going to represent with Meszaros.

At least with Hamhuis we would have been reasonably confident we were going to get our money's worth out of the player... instead we picked up a salary dump from Tampa Bay.

Didn't really need psychic powers... Holmgren told everyone he planned to do stupid with the defense as far as cap management, and he followed through in spades on that front. Rather than constructing a team with two really good pairings and getting a solid but cheaper 3rd pairing, we are going to have a really really expensive #5.

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10-05-2010, 05:25 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
COuld you imagine the fwd they could have brought in if they had not traded for Meszaros? The logic is that is was to create cap space by moving Gagne, but it makes no sense.
Well, I wanted a goalie more than I wanted a forward. But barring a goalie, we would be much better off with a bit less spent on our 5/6/7 D and that cash put into our #9 forward.

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10-05-2010, 05:50 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, I wanted a goalie more than I wanted a forward. But barring a goalie, we would be much better off with a bit less spent on our 5/6/7 D and that cash put into our #9 forward.
Don't forget 8th D.

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10-05-2010, 05:59 PM
  #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
He traded Parent with the intention of signing Hamhuis and said he wasn't going to trade any of our other D. That was specifically what was causing a lot of the angst. If you go back you'll actually find a lot of people stating that they like the deal in the event Carle (or Coburn, but preferably Carle) got moved for other assets so the D didn't get bogged down with an absurd cap hit.

So, when he realized he couldn't get Hamhuis signed he deals him for a 3rd (still would have preferred to have Parent as a cheap potential 3rd pairing guy at this point) and turns around to replace the stupid cap management that Hamhuis was going to represent with Meszaros.

At least with Hamhuis we would have been reasonably confident we were going to get our money's worth out of the player... instead we picked up a salary dump from Tampa Bay.

Didn't really need psychic powers... Holmgren told everyone he planned to do stupid with the defense as far as cap management, and he followed through in spades on that front. Rather than constructing a team with two really good pairings and getting a solid but cheaper 3rd pairing, we are going to have a really really expensive #5.
He's on waivers atm. If he falls to us, maybe Homer will grab him. Doubt it though. Due to his inury problems and passing incapability, he was as much as a problem on the 3rd pairing as Krajicek was

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10-05-2010, 06:22 PM
  #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
He traded Parent with the intention of signing Hamhuis and said he wasn't going to trade any of our other D. That was specifically what was causing a lot of the angst. If you go back you'll actually find a lot of people stating that they like the deal in the event Carle (or Coburn, but preferably Carle) got moved for other assets so the D didn't get bogged down with an absurd cap hit.

So, when he realized he couldn't get Hamhuis signed he deals him for a 3rd (still would have preferred to have Parent as a cheap potential 3rd pairing guy at this point) and turns around to replace the stupid cap management that Hamhuis was going to represent with Meszaros.

At least with Hamhuis we would have been reasonably confident we were going to get our money's worth out of the player... instead we picked up a salary dump from Tampa Bay.

Didn't really need psychic powers... Holmgren told everyone he planned to do stupid with the defense as far as cap management, and he followed through in spades on that front. Rather than constructing a team with two really good pairings and getting a solid but cheaper 3rd pairing, we are going to have a really really expensive #5.
I'm not any more confident in Hamhuis than I am in Meszaros, actually. I am more confident in Andres, to tell you the truth. I think he has a higher ceiling.

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10-05-2010, 06:26 PM
  #484
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Mes definitely has better offense than Hamhuis

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10-05-2010, 06:30 PM
  #485
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Mes definitely has better offense than Hamhuis
based on his play 3 years ago sure. People would be more condident in Mezaros than Hamhuis, thats interesteing.

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10-05-2010, 06:43 PM
  #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
He traded Parent with the intention of signing Hamhuis and said he wasn't going to trade any of our other D. That was specifically what was causing a lot of the angst. If you go back you'll actually find a lot of people stating that they like the deal in the event Carle (or Coburn, but preferably Carle) got moved for other assets so the D didn't get bogged down with an absurd cap hit.

So, when he realized he couldn't get Hamhuis signed he deals him for a 3rd (still would have preferred to have Parent as a cheap potential 3rd pairing guy at this point) and turns around to replace the stupid cap management that Hamhuis was going to represent with Meszaros.

At least with Hamhuis we would have been reasonably confident we were going to get our money's worth out of the player... instead we picked up a salary dump from Tampa Bay.

Didn't really need psychic powers... Holmgren told everyone he planned to do stupid with the defense as far as cap management, and he followed through in spades on that front. Rather than constructing a team with two really good pairings and getting a solid but cheaper 3rd pairing, we are going to have a really really expensive #5.
There were still a lot of people complaining about losing Parent for nothing, even after we recouped a 3rd. There was this expectation that he would be a top 4 Dman soon. That is what I am addressing nothing more nothing less.

You can rag on Holmgren's other decisions all you want, that really has nothing to with what I was saying.

Personally I rather have the 3rd, as it is clear Parent was on his way out of Philly.

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10-05-2010, 06:48 PM
  #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
Personally I rather have the 3rd, as it is clear Parent was on his way out of Philly.
Unfortunately, our GM turns 3rd round picks into Garret Klotz...

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10-05-2010, 06:53 PM
  #488
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
based on his play 3 years ago sure. People would be more condident in Mezaros than Hamhuis, thats interesteing.
Hamhuis is older and is quickly becoming overrated.

Great player, but he's a solid #2. He's not the player you build from. He's the complimentary player.

Not saying Meszaros is better, but if he plays up to his abilities he could be.

I don't think he'll ever be a number 1 either, but returning to form is certainly not out of the question in a low-pressure environment like the 2010-11 Philadelphia Flyers' 3rd pairing.

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10-05-2010, 07:00 PM
  #489
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Mez has a great skill set and a great combo of size and skill. He also has bad decision making

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10-05-2010, 07:20 PM
  #490
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Mez has a great skill set and a great combo of size and skill. He also has bad decision making
Something a lot of people were saying about Coburn until last March or so...

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10-05-2010, 07:24 PM
  #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Something a lot of people were saying about Coburn until last March or so...
Both of them have one great season, it's just that Coburn also has a very solid playoffs as well. But lets not anoint either of them until they figure out how to put an entire season together.

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10-05-2010, 07:29 PM
  #492
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Both of them have one great season, it's just that Coburn also has a very solid playoffs as well. But lets not anoint either of them until they figure out how to put an entire season together.
I'm sure Mez will have some progress this season with great mentors like Pronger and Timo.

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10-05-2010, 09:52 PM
  #493
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I don't think he'll ever be a number 1 either, but returning to form is certainly not out of the question in a low-pressure environment like the 2010-11 Philadelphia Flyers' 3rd pairing.
Are you new to Philly?

If he's putting up mediocre play for $4M a year for 4 more years he's going to get crucified.

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10-05-2010, 09:53 PM
  #494
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Something a lot of people were saying about Coburn until last March or so...
Coburn does make bad decisions... that's why he's been terribly inconsistent.

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10-05-2010, 10:08 PM
  #495
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Coburn does make bad decisions... that's why he's been terribly inconsistent.
No, Coburn's been pretty consistent.

He was good when he came for a limited stint post-trade deadline.
He was very good in 2007-08 until getting hit in the face.
He was alright for the early chunk of 2008-09.
He was bad for the rest of 2008-09.
He was terrible through January of 2009-10.
He turned it back on in February and was great from March onward through the playoffs.

Those are healthy chunks of slumps and highs. That's not game in, game out inconsistency.

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10-05-2010, 10:10 PM
  #496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Coburn does make bad decisions... that's why he's been terribly inconsistent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
No, Coburn's been pretty consistent.

He was good when he came for a limited stint post-trade deadline.
He was very good in 2007-08 until getting hit in the face.
He was alright for the early chunk of 2008-09.
He was bad for the rest of 2008-09.
He was terrible through January of 2009-10.
He turned it back on in February and was great from March onward through the playoffs.

Those are healthy chunks of slumps and highs. That's not game in, game out inconsistency.

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10-05-2010, 10:21 PM
  #497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
No, Coburn's been pretty consistent.

He was good when he came for a limited stint post-trade deadline.
He was very good in 2007-08 until getting hit in the face.
He was alright for the early chunk of 2008-09.
He was bad for the rest of 2008-09.
He was terrible through January of 2009-10.
He turned it back on in February and was great from March onward through the playoffs.

Those are healthy chunks of slumps and highs. That's not game in, game out inconsistency.
You pretty much just defined "terribly inconsistent", which basically solidified Jester's stance on the subject.

Just sayin'

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10-05-2010, 10:23 PM
  #498
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
No, Coburn's been pretty consistent.

He was good when he came for a limited stint post-trade deadline.
He was very good in 2007-08 until getting hit in the face.
He was alright for the early chunk of 2008-09.
He was bad for the rest of 2008-09.
He was terrible through January of 2009-10.
He turned it back on in February and was great from March onward through the playoffs.

Those are healthy chunks of slumps and highs.
You just described an inconsistent player. A player who plays really good for a month or two... and then inexplicably plays like crap for another month or two... is... inconsistent.

Also, Coburn was *ing terrible at the beginning of '08-'09. He's been brutal to start each of the last two seasons, in fact. He got better in the latter half of '08-'09, just like he did last year... making it seem like he might just be a slow starter.

Particularly in '08-'09, he was trying WAY too hard early on in the year and was getting burned. Once he calmed down, he posted 10 points in the final 32 games and a +7.

Didn't help that he played a lot of that year with Carle, who is equally questionable in the decision making department and neither player could cover/support the other's bad choices.

Quote:
That's not game in, game out inconsistency.
Game in, game out inconsistency... is consistent. You can, in fact, be consistently inconsistent... it translates to just being mediocre or not being very good. That's the way it is for a lot of players. A player who has consistently gone through prolonged stretches of highs and lows is simply inconsistent.

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10-05-2010, 10:24 PM
  #499
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
You pretty much just defined "terribly inconsistent", which basically solidified Jester's stance on the subject.

Just sayin'
Some people around here have their definitions screwed up.

Inconsistent refers to game in (our a few games) and game out; "streaky."

Hartnell has a career year.
Hartnell has a terrible year.

That's not inconsistency, and neither is Coburn's career.

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10-05-2010, 10:26 PM
  #500
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Some people around here have their definitions screwed up.

Inconsistent refers to game in (our a few games) and game out; "streaky."

Hartnell has a career year.
Hartnell has a terrible year.

That's not inconsistency, and neither is Coburn's career.
Dude, inconsistent is inconsistent, whether its shift to shift, game to game, or season to season.

Above you wrote:
He was "good"
He was "very good"
He was "alright"
He was "bad"
He was "terrible"
He "turned it back on"
He was "great"

That, my friend, is the very definition of "inconsistent", in your very own words.

Again, just sayin'

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