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Old
10-05-2010, 10:27 PM
  #501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You just described an inconsistent player. A player who plays really good for a month or two... and then inexplicably plays like crap for another month or two... is... inconsistent.
Exactly, a month or two.

Coburn's problems are 6 months to a year of ups and downs.

This isn't month to month or week to week or game to game.

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10-05-2010, 10:28 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Exactly, a month or two.

Coburn's problems are 6 months to a year of ups and downs.

This isn't month to month or week to week or game to game.
Who ****ing cares? It's still inconsistent.

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10-05-2010, 10:28 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
Dude, inconsistent is inconsistent, whether its shift to shift, game to game, or season to season.

Above you wrote:
He was "good"
He was "very good"
He was "alright"
He was "bad"
He was "terrible"
He "turned it back on"
He was "great"

That, my friend, is the very definition of "inconsistent", in your very own words.

Again, just sayin'
In long term increments.

Just sayin', you can't be inconsistent if you are consistently bad or consistently good for long stretches.

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10-05-2010, 10:33 PM
  #504
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inĚconĚsisĚtent (nkn-sstnt)
adj.
1. Displaying or marked by a lack of consistency, especially:
a. Not regular or predictable; erratic: inconsistent behavior.
b. Lacking in correct logical relation; contradictory: inconsistent statements.
c. Not in agreement or harmony; incompatible: an intersection inconsistent with the road map.

Coburn excels from time arrived through 2007-08. Inconsistent? No.
Coburn struggles from time returning in 2008-09 through mid-season 2009-10. Inconsistent? No.
Coburn once again excels from mid-season 2009-10 to present. Inconsistent? No.

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10-05-2010, 10:33 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
In long term increments.

Just sayin', you can't be inconsistent if you are consistently bad or consistently good for long stretches.
I love ya dude, but do you even read what you write sometimes? The very parts I bolded is the definition of "inconsistent", no matter the time increments.

You are trying to re-define the word "inconsistent" to fit what you want it to mean, or in this case, what you don't want it to mean.

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10-05-2010, 10:37 PM
  #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Exactly, a month or two.

Coburn's problems are 6 months to a year of ups and downs.

This isn't month to month or week to week or game to game.
Which is why he's inconsistent, dude. I realize that Coburn is another one of your man crushes, but what you just said above is a clear definition of a player that suffers from big time inconsistency problems.

Hartnell consistently sucked last year. Coburn had stretches where he was good, and stretches where he was bad... that's inconsistent.

Here's a test for you... which of the patterns below is consistent and which is inconsistent.

1 = good game
0 = bad game

10101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010 101010101010101010

11111111100000000111111111111111111111100000000000 000011111110000011

Game-to-game is meaningless. EVERYONE is inconsistent from game-to-game if you want to really break it down. That's where you get statistical noise, and why an individual game isn't worth much to looking for larger trends and knowing what you can expect from a player.

If I have a player that pairs good games with bad games at a regular interval, then that player is consistent.

If I have a player that is "streaky" then I have an inconsistent player.

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10-05-2010, 10:37 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
I love ya dude, but do you even read what you write sometimes? The very parts I bolded is the definition of "inconsistent", no matter the time increments.

You are trying to re-define the word "inconsistent" to fit what you want it to mean, or in this case, what you don't want it to mean.
I'm following the exact definition of inconsistent.

"Not regular or predictable; erratic: inconsistent behavior."

Coburn has never been erratic. You know what Coburn is going to show up on the ice.

From when he started, he was good.
Then he slumped for basically a year and a half.
Then he was good again.

Each time you know which Coburn you were getting. It wasn't month by month, week by week, or game by game.

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10-05-2010, 10:38 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Hartnell consistently sucked last year. Coburn had stretches where he was good, and stretches where he was bad... that's inconsistent.
Coburn consistently sucked for a year and a half.

That's not inconsistent. You just said Hartnell wasn't inconsistent for basically the same ****ing thing.

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10-05-2010, 10:41 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I'm following the exact definition of inconsistent.
No, you are not. You are following your own twisted interpretation of what inconsistent means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
"Not regular or predictable; erratic: inconsistent behavior."

Coburn has never been erratic. You know what Coburn is going to show up on the ice.
Really? Do tell, which Coburn is showing up this year?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
From when he started, he was good.
Then he slumped for basically a year and a half.
Then he was good again.
FFS dude, that is inconsistency defined.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Each time you know which Coburn you were getting. It wasn't month by month, week by week, or game by game.
Chris, if you can't tell me what Coburn we are going to get this season, then he isn't consistent. If you wanna go out a limb and predict which Coburn we're gonna get, then be my guest. According to you, it should be easy, what with how consistent you seem to think he is.

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10-05-2010, 10:45 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
Really? Do tell, which Coburn is showing up this year?
Maybe the same one from the preseason...


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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
FFS dude, that is inconsistency defined.
Then Richards is inconsistent because he was not very good, and then was suddenly the best player on the team.

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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
Chris, if you can't tell me what Coburn we are going to get this season, then he isn't consistent. If you wanna go out a limb and predict which Coburn we're gonna get, then be my guest. According to you, it should be easy, what with how consistent you seem to think he is.
I can tell you right now. It looks like Coburn has completely turned the corner. He's been much better than he was through 2008-09 and the beginning of last year.

He was great from March onward through the playoffs and had a great preseason.

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10-05-2010, 10:49 PM
  #511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Maybe the same one from the preseason...




Then Richards is inconsistent because he was not very good, and then was suddenly the best player on the team.



I can tell you right now. It looks like Coburn has completely turned the corner. He's been much better than he was through 2008-09 and the beginning of last year.

He was great from March onward through the playoffs and had a great preseason.
What Coburn would you have predicted after his first year with the Flyers and heading into his second?

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10-05-2010, 10:50 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
What Coburn would you have predicted after his first year with the Flyers and heading into his second?
After he got hit in the face with a puck?

Let me ask you this, what Pronger are you expecting this season after offseason injury?

Better yet, what Hartnell were you expecting this past year after having a career year?

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10-05-2010, 10:51 PM
  #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Maybe the same one from the preseason...
Or maybe not? If he's consistent, shouldn't you be able to tell me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Then Richards is inconsistent because he was not very good, and then was suddenly the best player on the team.
Yes, Richards has had his share of inconsistent moments (like every player ever), though he's been far more consistent than Coburn. You do realize that there are varying degrees of inconsistency, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I can tell you right now. It looks like Coburn has completely turned the corner. He's been much better than he was through 2008-09 and the beginning of last year.
You can't tell right now because you don't know what you are gonna get. He hasn't been consistent enough for anyone to harbor a guess, which is the whole point.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
He was great from March onward through the playoffs and had a great preseason.
Wonderful. That still doesn't erase the fact that he has been nothing but inconsistent throughout his career. He has stretches of good play, stretches of great play, stretches of ok play and stretches of bad play.

That is inconsistency defined. I like Coburn, and think he will become more consistent as he matures, but let's call a spade a spade.

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10-05-2010, 10:53 PM
  #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Coburn consistently sucked for a year and a half.

That's not inconsistent. You just said Hartnell wasn't inconsistent for basically the same ****ing thing.
No, he didn't. In '08-'09 he got his **** together considerably after the disaster he'd been early on in the year when he looked like he'd read his press clippings and decided he was the next Bobby Orr and was trying to do way too much all the time... this was exacerbated by having Matt Carle as his partner. Coburn was rather good in the 2nd half of that year, though, not as good as he'd shown the year before.

He did a similar routine last year. He absolutely goes through months of OK play, and months of not so OK play.

Last year, Hartnell was Hartnell the entire year... and it wasn't all that good.

The first season Hartnell was here could be described as "inconsistent" as he struggled mightily at first before getting his act together.

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10-05-2010, 10:53 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
Or maybe not? If he's consistent, shouldn't you be able to tell me?


Yes, Richards has had his share of inconsistent moments (like every player ever), though he's been far more consistent than Coburn. You do realize that there are varying degrees of inconsistency, right?


You can't tell right now because you don't know what you are gonna get. He hasn't been consistent enough for anyone to harbor a guess, which is the whole point.


Wonderful. That still doesn't erase the fact that he has been nothing but inconsistent throughout his career. He has moments stretches of good play, stretches of great play, stretches of ok play and stretches of bad play.

That is inconsistency defined. I like Coburn, and think he will become more consistent as he matures, but let's call a spade a spade.
Then, according to you, every player in the NHL is inconsistent.

So why differentiate between inconsistent players and consistent players if consistent players don't exist?

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10-05-2010, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No, he didn't. In '08-'09 he got his **** together considerably after the disaster he'd been early on in the year when he looked like he'd read his press clippings and decided he was the next Bobby Orr and was trying to do way too much all the time... this was exacerbated by having Matt Carle as his partner. Coburn was rather good in the 2nd half of that year, though, not as good as he'd shown the year before.

He did a similar routine last year. He absolutely goes through months of OK play, and months of not so OK play.
No, it was a straight downward slope post injury. I don't remember any 2nd half rebirth for Coburn last season, only this past season, which brings us to present.

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10-05-2010, 10:58 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Then, according to you, every player in the NHL is inconsistent.
To a degree, yes. That isn't some kind of breaking news.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
So why differentiate between inconsistent players and consistent players if consistent players don't exist?
You are just arguing semantics now, and its what you always end up doing, even when your very own words about Coburn define inconsistent.

I will tell you this much, Chris: There's nothing more consistent in this world than the way you debate. Even when you are clearly wrong, you will go to great lengths (like arguing the definition or varying degrees of inconsistency) just to try and be right on a message board.

If Coubrn was half as consistent as you, I'd have him ticketed for the ****ing HHOF.

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10-05-2010, 11:03 PM
  #518
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Then, according to you, every player in the NHL is inconsistent.

So why differentiate between inconsistent players and consistent players if consistent players don't exist?
If your definition of inconsistent rests on the incredibly narrow window of game-to-game, then, yes, every player in the NHL is inconsistent.

However, that's not how consistency/inconsistency is defined.

You question Hartnell.

Scott Hartnells career PPG is 0.53. It was 0.54 last year. 6 of the 9 seasons Hartnell has played in the NHL have fallen at a PPG rate between 0.50 and 0.61.

But, really, if you want to look at Hartnell... PPG isn't as helpful, cuz he isn't really an assist guy.

So, why was Hartnell a disappointment last year? His GPG fell to 0.17.

Hartnell's career GPG: 0.03, 0.19, 0.15, 0.31, 0.31, 0.34, 0.30, 0.37, 0.17

So, you ask what Hartnell we might expect? I expect something in the 0.30-0.35 GPG range ideally... lets peg him for 25 goals, and 25 assists. He's been pretty consistent in achieving those types of totals if he plays a full season.

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10-05-2010, 11:05 PM
  #519
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I will tell you this much, Chris: There's nothing more consistent in this world than the way you debate. Even when you are clearly wrong, you will go to great lengths (like arguing the definition or varying degrees of inconsistency) just to try and be right on a message board.
I'd love to know how I'm "clearly wrong."

Everyone seems to debate me as if they're 100% right all the time. Isn't that what you're doing now? About the definition of a word no less?

That's pretty hypocritical.

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10-05-2010, 11:06 PM
  #520
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No, it was a straight downward slope post injury. I don't remember any 2nd half rebirth for Coburn last season, only this past season, which brings us to present.
He was demonstrably better in the 2nd half of '08-'09. In the first half he didn't look like he belonged in the NHL.

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10-05-2010, 11:08 PM
  #521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I'd love to know how I'm "clearly wrong."

Everyone seems to debate me as if they're 100% right all the time. Isn't that what you're doing now? About the definition of a word no less?

That's pretty hypocritical.
Are they 100% right all the time or are you 100% wrong all the time...

Statistically, one is more likely than the other.

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10-05-2010, 11:09 PM
  #522
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If your definition of inconsistent rests on the incredibly narrow window of game-to-game, then, yes, every player in the NHL is inconsistent.

However, that's not how consistency/inconsistency is defined.
Agreed, but from the beginning, my definition of inconsistency was not only based game to game, but also week to week and even month to month.

I think it's possible to have a hot streak for 2 months and fall apart for 2 months and be considered inconsistent, even though that's stretching it quite a bit.

When you start getting into half seasons and full seasons like in the case of Coburn and Hartnell's recent season-long slump, it isn't about inconsistency. There are other factors involved.

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10-05-2010, 11:10 PM
  #523
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Are they 100% right all the time or are you 100% wrong all the time...

Statistically, one is more likely than the other.
Well, can you "statistically" prove that?

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10-05-2010, 11:14 PM
  #524
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I'd love to know how I'm "clearly wrong."
Well dude, you are. Your very own description of Coburn, in this very thread, defines the word inconsistent.

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Everyone seems to debate me as if they're 100% right all the time. Isn't that what you're doing now? About the definition of a word no less?
You and I have gone round and round enough for you to know that I don't claim to be 100% right all the time.

And no, I'm not arguing the definition of the word inconsistent, because I have a very firm grasp on what the definition of that term is. There isn't anything to argue about. You are simply trying squeeze "longterm increments" of time into the debate, as if that somehow changes the definition of the word. Simply put, it does not.

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That's pretty hypocritical.
You said it.

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10-05-2010, 11:19 PM
  #525
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Agreed, but from the beginning, my definition of inconsistency was not only based game to game, but also week to week and even month to month.

I think it's possible to have a hot streak for 2 months and fall apart for 2 months and be considered inconsistent, even though that's stretching it quite a bit.
It's really not. That's the definition of an inconsistent/streaky player. There's literally nothing useful about noting that a player (and players) have inconsistencies if you want to look at individual games. That's specifically why game to game statistics are utterly useless. They can't tell you anything because there is an immense amount of statistical noise due to the inherent inconsistency in play. You have good days and bad days... your consistency comes from the body of work in larger samples.

If I look at a player and see blocks of good play followed by blocks of terrible play... then you got an inconsistent player.

Quote:
When you start getting into half seasons and full seasons like in the case of Coburn and Hartnell's recent season-long slump, it isn't about inconsistency. There are other factors involved.
Coburn hasn't had a season-long slump of the variety you're talking about. In fact, if you want to talk about him as a case of simple slumping, then it's really alarming because he's been on a downward trajectory in each of the last two years.

Largely because when he first got here and in his first full season he played a very simple game and deferred to Timonen a lot. Once he got some confidence and cockiness into his game he tried to do more, and that's where he got into trouble. Since that point he's never been able to maintain a consistent balance between doing just enough and trying to do too much... and it leads to him into a lot of inconsistency as he oscillates between having his game under control and losing control of it.

Hartnell, on the other hand, was just consistently struggling last year until the playoffs.

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