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Old
10-07-2010, 01:19 PM
  #26
Black Tank
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Originally Posted by FOXHOUND View Post
But constantly *****ing about the same thing(s)? Gets old after awhile, and it's the equivalent of just beating your head against the wall. At what point does the umpteenth "I think torts is a terrible person" post get old, especially with the season not even started yet? Nobody is saying anything new it's just saying the same things over and over again.
I don't give a **** what Tortorella is like as a person - I care about the results on the ice. And the results with him fully in charge have not been good.

And good luck trying to avoid the same topics on this or any other sports forum, especially from NY fans.

Going back to Leetch, yeah he definitely has a monotone going on but I definitely find him insightful and intelligent. Which makes it even more amazing on how wrong he is about Tortorella.

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10-07-2010, 01:21 PM
  #27
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Loved Leetch as a player, but he'd be a terrible broadcaster. He's so monotoned and drab, probably a big reason why he didn't make a good captain...too lethargic all the time, though he's obviously has great vision for the game.

Oh and Redden was terrible before he signed his contract, the pressure of living up to the deal wasn't what did it. It had more to do with a couple of knee injuries which slowed him down and changes to the game which sped it, this killed his career.

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10-07-2010, 01:23 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Black Tank View Post
I don't give a **** what Tortorella is like as a person - I care about the results on the ice. And the results with him fully in charge have not been good.

And good luck trying to avoid the same topics on this or any other sports forum, especially from NY fans.

Going back to Leetch, yeah he definitely has a monotone going on but I definitely find him insightful and intelligent. Which makes it even more amazing on how wrong he is about Tortorella.
Completely missed my point but I'm not suprised

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10-07-2010, 01:26 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Jagr68NYR94Leetch View Post
Agreed. I thought the message board was a place to support your team, not a place to trash it. Someone might say well were talking about the coach, but the coach is an integral part of the team. Someone else might say well this is also a board to discuss things; well yeah it is but theres only so many times you can discuss what you dislike about something. Its the same thing being repeated. And this latest one is just plain stupid, I'm sorry but it is. Calling a system ineffective before a new season, with new players, hasnt even started is asinine.
You can question the coach or not agree with things he's done and not be trashing the team.

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10-07-2010, 01:29 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Jagr68NYR94Leetch View Post
Agreed. I thought the message board was a place to support your team, not a place to trash it. Someone might say well were talking about the coach, but the coach is an integral part of the team. Someone else might say well this is also a board to discuss things; well yeah it is but theres only so many times you can discuss what you dislike about something. Its the same thing being repeated. And this latest one is just plain stupid, I'm sorry but it is. Calling a system ineffective before a new season, with new players, hasnt even started is asinine.
Last year is written in stone and the system was ineffective and painful to watch resulting in missing the POs. Ineffective? Check.

You really think the roster got that much better in the off season to be able to play puck pursuit/pressure hockey successfully? If you do, good on you and go team!

I don't think there is any such quantum jump in team skill and speed and having watched most of the lineup for the past few years I'm pretty confident that this system doesn't make the most of their abilities.

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10-07-2010, 01:30 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
You can question the coach or not agree with things he's done and not be trashing the team.
That's your opinion SBOB. But I feel the coach is just as much as part of the team as the players. If you're going to take shots at him then youre taking shots at the team. The only exception I see to this if the coach has totally become a dictator, lost control of his team, and/or has been here for years and had plenty of chances that its time he has to go. Torts has been here 1+ season. That is it. And for the past 1+ seasons he hasnt had the players that he wants. This year he does. The fact that fans are targeting before his 2nd full season as coach even starts is quite ridiculous.

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10-07-2010, 01:31 PM
  #32
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I'd like Messier for head coach/GM...with Leetch as asst. D coach and _____(Lowe, MacTavish, Graves...no former Islanders...any suggestions?)as O-zone coach...

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10-07-2010, 01:31 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Black Tank View Post
I don't think there is any such quantum jump in team skill and speed and having watched most of the lineup for the past few years I'm pretty confident that this system doesn't make the most of their abilities.
What type of system would you suggest for this group?

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10-07-2010, 01:32 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by FOXHOUND View Post
Completely missed my point but I'm not suprised
You didn't have a point. You were complaining about other people complaining....

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10-07-2010, 01:39 PM
  #35
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What type of system would you suggest for this group?
A defense first system with a counterattack on the turnover. When you don't have a lot of offensive talent I can't think of a better way of making the POs.

I wish we had more options but with the 23 we've got, I don't see what those options are. I'm all for trying out different systems but I don't want to waste 2/3 of the season trying to fit this roster into a system that it can't play successfully like I feel we did last year.

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10-07-2010, 01:40 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Black Tank View Post
Last year is written in stone and the system was ineffective and painful to watch resulting in missing the POs. Ineffective? Check.

You really think the roster got that much better in the off season to be able to play puck pursuit/pressure hockey successfully? If you do, good on you and go team!

I don't think there is any such quantum jump in team skill and speed and having watched most of the lineup for the past few years I'm pretty confident that this system doesn't make the most of their abilities.
The system was ineffective because he wasnt given the tools to make it work. You hire a coach and with him comes his style of coaching. Not that sather didnt want to give torts the players he needs for his system to be effective, he just simply couldnt. We missed the playoffs because we didnt have good players. Not because of this system.

And yes I do think the roster has improved. Redden is gone. White is most likely on his way out. The cap space is now there to add whatever we might need. We added Frolov. Sauer has improved and looks ready. Stepan looks very ready and it has showed. I would like to see what fedotenko brings to the table playing for Torts again (this is what makes this years team Torts team). So far Feds play has been strong. We have a reliable backup goalie that can relieve lundqvist and actually give us a chance of winning a game in Biron. Anisimov has a year of NHL experience under his belt, he knows what to expect and what it takes. I think callahan will continue to provide solid play. I also feel like this is the year where dubinsky finally gets over that hump and becomes a 50-60 point player. Avery so far has shown that maybe his game is finally coming back. Boyle looks more confident and worked very hard in the offseason and has improved. 2nd year for MDZ. Not to mention the players we have in hartford who could take off and push for spots on the nhl squad during the year.

Theres lots of reason to think this team has improved. Its going to be the 2nd full year playing under torts' system. Very reasonable to think that the players will understand it even better.

But none if this is relevant to my problem with what you said and that is calling a system ineffective before a NEW season has even started.

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10-07-2010, 01:44 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Black Tank View Post
A defense first system with a counterattack on the turnover. When you don't have a lot of offensive talent I can't think of a better way of making the POs.

I wish we had more options but with the 23 we've got, I don't see what those options are. I'm all for trying out different systems but I don't want to waste 2/3 of the season trying to fit this roster into a system that it can't play successfully like I feel we did last year.
your kidding right???? WE HAD THAT SYSTEM WITH RENNEY!!! It was always defense first. And you know what we were always good enough to make the playoffs. Thats it though. It was a 1st round exit for the most part. We only got as far as the 2nd round. Because the reality is we never had enough to beat other teams. There were times when we werent aggressive enough because of that system. We struggled to score then at times especially when jagr wasnt on the ice. Sometimes just making the playoffs isnt enough if you cant do anything when you get there. Its a let down to watch 82 games just to get bounced in the 1st round. That is why a change was made in the first place

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10-07-2010, 01:45 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Jagr68NYR94Leetch View Post
The system was ineffective because he wasnt given the tools to make it work. You hire a coach and with him comes his style of coaching. Not that sather didnt want to give torts the players he needs for his system to be effective, he just simply couldnt. We missed the playoffs because we didnt have good players. Not because of this system.
But isn't that saying the same thing as Tank? The system is ineffective because the talent isn't there.

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10-07-2010, 01:49 PM
  #39
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But isn't that saying the same thing as Tank? The system is ineffective because the talent isn't there.
It was at first what he was saying. But then he followed it up with this:

"If you like Tortorella, great good for you. But he has not been a good coach for the Rangers - the numbers suck and the on ice performance has been dismal. But at least the players like it...."

He makes it tort's fault that the team has been ineffective in his system. It's not tort's fault that sather hasnt been able to give him the pieces to fit his system. This years team isnt perfect but its better than what he's had to work with.

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10-07-2010, 01:53 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Black Tank View Post
A defense first system with a counterattack on the turnover. When you don't have a lot of offensive talent I can't think of a better way of making the POs.

I wish we had more options but with the 23 we've got, I don't see what those options are. I'm all for trying out different systems but I don't want to waste 2/3 of the season trying to fit this roster into a system that it can't play successfully like I feel we did last year.
But you acknowledge that systems don't get implemented overnight ,right? Several of these players had been playing under Renney's defense first, 5 in the picture, play for the shoot-out system.... Tortorella came in and last season was his first full season to implement his system for how he wanted the team to play.... That's not going to happen right away.... There is an adjustment period for the players, there is an adjustment period for the coaching staff to gauge what the players are and aren't capable of.... You saw that first hand with Staal and his inconsistency in the beginning of the season vs. his confidence and sound decision making at the end of the season (when it comes to generating offense and rushing the puck).... You shouldn't rush to judgement, this season will give us a much better evaluation of Tortorella's system and whether or not it will work for this group... He weeded out some undesirable players and the remaining players know what's expected of them and how they are being asked to play.... Hell we averaged over 4 goals a game in the pre-season and majority of those games we weren't even playing our starting forward up front.... Not too concerned about how many goals we gave up because Henke wasn't in net for the majority of the time and we had a lot of rookie/bottom pairing guys out there...

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10-07-2010, 01:56 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Jagr68NYR94Leetch View Post
It was at first what he was saying. But then he followed it up with this:

"If you like Tortorella, great good for you. But he has not been a good coach for the Rangers - the numbers suck and the on ice performance has been dismal. But at least the players like it...."

He makes it tort's fault that the team has been ineffective in his system. It's not tort's fault that sather hasnt been able to give him the pieces to fit his system. This years team isnt perfect but its better than what he's had to work with.
I agree. I think as a coach you need certain pieces to execute your particular style. However, they're strategists too. So if you raise your gun in battle and find it empty, you don't keep pulling the trigger. You switch to the next weapon. I think we can all agree (well, some of us can hehehe) that Torts might have been a bit too devoted to his system last season.

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10-07-2010, 01:57 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
But you acknowledge that systems don't get implemented overnight ,right? Several of these players had been playing under Renney's defense first, 5 in the picture, play for the shoot-out system.... Tortorella came in and last season was his first full season to implement his system for how he wanted the team to play.... That's not going to happen right away.... There is an adjustment period for the players, there is an adjustment period for the coaching staff to gauge what the players are and aren't capable of.... You saw that first hand with Staal and his inconsistency in the beginning of the season vs. his confidence and sound decision making at the end of the season (when it comes to generating offense and rushing the puck).... You shouldn't rush to judgement, this season will give us a much better evaluation of Tortorella's system and whether or not it will work for this group... He weeded out some undesirable players and the remaining players know what's expected of them and how they are being asked to play....
Very, very well said.

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10-07-2010, 02:00 PM
  #43
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I agree. I think as a coach you need certain pieces to execute your particular style. However, they're strategists too. So if you raise your gun in battle and find it empty, you don't keep pulling the trigger. You switch to the next weapon. I think we can all agree (well, some of us can hehehe) that Torts might have been a bit too devoted to his system last season.
I agree with you that maybe he pushed his system too hard or too much at certain points. But its his system and its worked for him in the past, he's not just going to change and throw it away. Its the players job to adjust to it, not the coaches job to adjust to them. That's why an organization hires someone imo. A coach directs all different types of players on a team. Its not like a coach comes in and every player on the roster is great at playing a certain style already. He implements the system and year there are definitely learning curves. I think you just need to read wolfgaze's post above, perfect explanation for tort's time here.

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10-07-2010, 02:04 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
But you acknowledge that systems don't get implemented overnight ,right? Several of these players had been playing under Renney's defense first, 5 in the picture, play for the shoot-out system.... Tortorella came in and last season was his first full season to implement his system for how he wanted the team to play.... That's not going to happen right away.... There is an adjustment period for the players, there is an adjustment period for the coaching staff to gauge what the players are and aren't capable of.... You saw that first hand with Staal and his inconsistency in the beginning of the season vs. his confidence and sound decision making at the end of the season (when it comes to generating offense and rushing the puck).... You shouldn't rush to judgement, this season will give us a much better evaluation of Tortorella's system and whether or not it will work for this group... He weeded out some undesirable players and the remaining players know what's expected of them and how they are being asked to play....
I don't disagree about the adjustment period but will these players ever be able to compete successfully with a puck pursuit system? And if this offseason is anything like future offseasons, we will not be flipping the roster over quickly. IMO, I don't think we have the horses to compete with a puck pursuit system.

I hope I'm proven wrong and that last year was ONLY a learning problem and not an ability problem but in any event I don't think we can afford another 60 games of atrocious hockey like last year to see if the system is taking hold.

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10-07-2010, 02:07 PM
  #45
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I don't disagree about the adjustment period but will these players ever be able to compete successfully with a puck pursuit system? And if this offseason is anything like future offseasons, we will not be flipping the roster over quickly. IMO, I don't think we have the horses to compete with a puck pursuit system.

I hope I'm proven wrong and that last year was ONLY a learning problem and not an ability problem but in any event I don't think we can afford another 60 games of atrocious hockey like last year to see if the system is taking hold.
I'm not saying it will work, all I'm saying is that at the end of this season we should have a large enough sample size to effectively analyze & evaluate whether or not this type of game plan will work for this team.... One season was not enough... So far I've liked what I've seen from several players in the pre-season in terms of puck pressure and pursuit in the offensive zone.... Guys like Boyle, Callahan, AA, Dubinsky have been all over the puck when we don't have it and I like the pace of the game that I've seen....

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10-07-2010, 02:08 PM
  #46
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I agree with you that maybe he pushed his system too hard or too much at certain points. But its his system and its worked for him in the past, he's not just going to change and throw it away. Its the players job to adjust to it, not the coaches job to adjust to them. That's why an organization hires someone imo. A coach directs all different types of players on a team. Its not like a coach comes in and every player on the roster is great at playing a certain style already. He implements the system and year there are definitely learning curves. I think you just need to read wolfgaze's post above, perfect explanation for tort's time here.

Should it be sink or swim though? Isn't it part of his job (as well as the players, I agree with you) to adapt and improvise? If the system can't be executed because your team lacks the talent, you change the system to one in which your player's abilties are better utilized.

I read Wolf's post, and it was very well thought out, but I think there's something wrong with waiting 2 and a quater seasons before we can safely evaluate his system.

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10-07-2010, 02:13 PM
  #47
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You shouldn't rush to judgement, this season will give us a much better evaluation of Tortorella's system and whether or not it will work for this group...
This has to be drilled into some people's heads. If he loses the team, then we replace him. Not until then.

Switching coaches yet again will result in more tire spinning and less development. One of the main constants of Sather's early tenure was the musical coaches. Every season it was someone new. Trottier, Low, Sather, Muckler. You can't do that. Teams don't work well in this environment. The first development we saw recently was under Renney - who was coach for three full seasons.

Now, there is no "Keenan Solution" around the corner. We don't have a Messier, Graves, Leetch, Richter core. We need to build and a coach who exerts his influence by demanding responsibility, aggressive play and accountability is just what we need right now.

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10-07-2010, 02:32 PM
  #48
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I read Wolf's post, and it was very well thought out, but I think there's something wrong with waiting 2 and a quater seasons before we can safely evaluate his system.
Well you've got several players (Cally, Dubinsky, Drury, Girardi, Staal, Avery) playing a different system/style under Renney for 2-3 years.... I don't really think one training camp and season is enough for the players to shed their old thought process and way of approaching the game and doing things out on the ice... During the MSG Hockey Night episode that aired at the end of August you saw an interview with Tortorella talking about Staal and how early on in the season he was having a difficult time gaging how the coach's wanted him to play. It was a bit of a forced approach by Staal and led to some inconsistent play. He went on to say that later in the season Staal revealed that he finally became comfortable with what they were expecting of him and more importantly, trusting his instincts offensively (as to when to rush the puck, pinch, and join the play).... I'm not ruling out similar results with other players on the roster eventually "getting it" with regards to how the coaching staff is asking them to approach the game. Last year's training camp was these players hearing Tortorella's instructions/system for the first time, and trying to replicate it out on the ice (at the risk of getting reamed on the bench and in practice for not doing so)... I think this year going into camp our players know what to expect and what the expectations are of them, so there's not as much pressure to conform to a system they are/were unfamiliar with (like last year)...It will feel more natural, less forced, and there won't be as much pressure to quickly "get it" or adapt...

And again, to reiterate, I'm not saying this will be successful or work for us, but just that I feel one season of implementing a particular style of play with a sub-par roster was/is not enough time to see if there will be any positive results or if it will "stick"

For me the jury is still out on Tortorella... Inconsistency is my biggest gripe with the Rangers post lock-out... If we field a more consistent team this season I will be okay with the direction in which we're headed...


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10-07-2010, 02:37 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Jagr68NYR94Leetch View Post
That's your opinion SBOB. But I feel the coach is just as much as part of the team as the players. If you're going to take shots at him then youre taking shots at the team. The only exception I see to this if the coach has totally become a dictator, lost control of his team, and/or has been here for years and had plenty of chances that its time he has to go. Torts has been here 1+ season. That is it. And for the past 1+ seasons he hasnt had the players that he wants. This year he does. The fact that fans are targeting before his 2nd full season as coach even starts is quite ridiculous.
My main point is you can criticize or question without "trashing". Example, "I would switch the lines and breakup Frolov and Gaborik" is criticizing or questioning. "Torts sucks. He's the worst coach ever." is trashing. The two aren't the same.

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10-07-2010, 03:06 PM
  #50
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My main point is you can criticize or question without "trashing". Example, "I would switch the lines and breakup Frolov and Gaborik" is criticizing or questioning. "Torts sucks. He's the worst coach ever." is trashing. The two aren't the same.
And I understand that side of it. I agree there are two ways of going about it. I'm saying I've been reading a lot of things that are just outright saying torts is not a good coach, which I believe falls along with the latter part of your post. Everyone questions decisions throughout a season and thats fine. But the season hasnt started and there are people attacking torts and blaming him for our problems without any real thought behind it.

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