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Old
10-07-2010, 03:16 PM
  #51
Rangerfans
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Originally Posted by Black Tank View Post
A defense first system with a counterattack on the turnover. When you don't have a lot of offensive talent I can't think of a better way of making the POs.

I wish we had more options but with the 23 we've got, I don't see what those options are. I'm all for trying out different systems but I don't want to waste 2/3 of the season trying to fit this roster into a system that it can't play successfully like I feel we did last year.
Sounds like the Renney system. I had no problem with Tom Renney as coach, and was pretty disappointed when we got rid of him. But did you see the hatred that this board had for him? You would have thought we went 0-82.

Ranger fans on the HFBoards look at two people for their woes. The coach (Tom Renney was a perfect example...and clearly Torts now) and the GM (which I will not complain about). No one ever says, "You know what...maybe we just don't have a SC caliber team." I never hear that.

This board is filled with: Hatred, negative posts, and constant bombardment about certain people (Torts, Rozy, Drury, etc.), excessive praise about 3rd line players who aren't even on the team anymore (Korpi, Prucha (lol), Dawes), and the absolute overhype of our prospect pool (ie: Grachev).

It's quite comical.

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Old
10-07-2010, 03:28 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangerfans View Post

This board is filled with: Hatred, negative posts, and constant bombardment about certain people (Torts, Rozy, Drury, etc.), excessive praise about 3rd line players who aren't even on the team anymore (Korpi, Prucha (lol), Dawes), and the absolute overhype of our prospect pool (ie: Grachev).

It's quite comical.
Yet you conveniently neglected to mention the praise fans on this board have for the likes of Staal, Callahan, MDZ, Lundqvist, Gabs, all of which is well deserved... Nor did you mention the hyping of prospects like Derek Stepan or Chris Kreider, which also warrants some basis to it... Better to paint the complete picture.

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10-07-2010, 03:30 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Black Tank View Post
Don't disagree with this at all if you have players like Leetch, St. Louis, Lecavalier, etc. We don't and that's why this system is completely ineffective for this Rangers team. Without Lundquist playing the best hockey of his career we would be vying for a top pick playing this ridiculous system.

The truth is, Torts hasn't really had them playing that system you speak of.

He had them try it. But ultimately he had to make changes and adjustments to the system; to suit the horses (players) he has on the roster.

You, me, none of us have seen the Rangers play the Tortorella full system, yet; for any extended period of time. Because they haven't done so.
"
What we have been seeing a large majority of the time, is a much more conservative and tweeked system. But that may start to change over these next two seasons, as the Rangers get some of these younger, faster kids (like Stepan) into the lineup.

They have some players in this lineup who are well suited for his full system. But not enough, yet.

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10-07-2010, 03:35 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Rangerfans View Post
Sounds like the Renney system. I had no problem with Tom Renney as coach, and was pretty disappointed when we got rid of him..

Counter-Punch systems can hardly be considered a 'Renney System". They been around for many, many decades.

The Trap is a Counter-Punch system. In fact, that's exactly what the Rangers were playing under Renney......most of the time. A variation of the Trap/Left Wing Lock.

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10-07-2010, 06:01 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Tank View Post
Don't disagree with this at all if you have players like Leetch, St. Louis, Lecavalier, etc. We don't and that's why this system is completely ineffective for this Rangers team. Without Lundquist playing the best hockey of his career we would be vying for a top pick playing this ridiculous system.

Right now that is the case but you have to give Torts time and he will put right people in there. It takes some time to bring in right personell after you've taken over a team.

Patience is a virtue. Gotta give Torts time.

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Old
10-07-2010, 08:06 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by darko View Post
Right now that is the case but you have to give Torts time and he will put right people in there. It takes some time to bring in right personell after you've taken over a team.

Patience is a virtue. Gotta give Torts time.
Realistically, how much time does Tortorella have? He's safe this year, but if the Rangers don't make the playoffs, he will be on the hot seat next season. And he doesn't have control over which players are brought in. Plus, there are labor issues that have to be dealt with within the next two years, or there will be another lockout. Salvation may lie within, but Tortorella might not be around to reap the benefits.

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Old
10-07-2010, 09:46 PM
  #57
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The people who just blindly defend Tortorella boggle my mind. What has he done to deserve any sort of defense from anyone?

I agree with what Black Tank is saying, and I think Shadowtron summed things up best in this thread.

A coach is allowed to have his system and try and implement it, but when it's not working, changes need to be made.

Tortorella deserves credit for realizing early on that his safe is death approach was going to do way more harm than anything else, and he pulled back the reigns. Unfortunately, you got the feeling from the players and the coach that nobody knew exactly what was going on after that.

Torts wasn't able to play the system he wanted, and the players weren't sure exactly what was being asked of them by the coach.

It resulted in a terribly mediocre season.

Hopefully this year will be better.

For Jagr...I don't understand how you're criticizing Black Tank's thoughts on the correct system for these players by saying "that's Renney's system!" and referencing how all that did was get this team to the playoffs.

Can you tell me where Tortorella's system got the team last year after his predecessor took them to the post season every year since the lockout?

You also were fairly inaccurate saying it always resulted in first round exits. We were one game away from the ECF if Drury doesn't score with 7 seconds left. That's a huge difference then saying it was one of many first round exits.

I like Torts, but I'm not going to pat him on the back until he accomplishes something.

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10-07-2010, 09:50 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darko View Post
Right now that is the case but you have to give Torts time and he will put right people in there. It takes some time to bring in right personell after you've taken over a team.

Patience is a virtue. Gotta give Torts time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger View Post
Realistically, how much time does Tortorella have? He's safe this year, but if the Rangers don't make the playoffs, he will be on the hot seat next season. And he doesn't have control over which players are brought in. Plus, there are labor issues that have to be dealt with within the next two years, or there will be another lockout. Salvation may lie within, but Tortorella might not be around to reap the benefits.
Yeah agreed Brooklyn.

I'm not sure what personnel Torts is "bringing in".

How people assume the moves we make would be greatly different regardless of coach is beyond me.

Like if this offseason Glen goes out and gets Brad Richards, it's only because Tortorella knows him from Tampa and wanted him here for his system.

If patience is a virtue, then shouldn't we have stuck with Renney? You know, the guy who got the team to the post season every year he was here?

I guess people only have patience when they think they're the ones being "fair" to the head coach that they like.

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10-07-2010, 10:13 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
The people who just blindly defend Tortorella boggle my mind. What has he done to deserve any sort of defense from anyone?

I agree with what Black Tank is saying, and I think Shadowtron summed things up best in this thread.

A coach is allowed to have his system and try and implement it, but when it's not working, changes need to be made.

Tortorella deserves credit for realizing early on that his safe is death approach was going to do way more harm than anything else, and he pulled back the reigns. Unfortunately, you got the feeling from the players and the coach that nobody knew exactly what was going on after that.

Torts wasn't able to play the system he wanted, and the players weren't sure exactly what was being asked of them by the coach.

It resulted in a terribly mediocre season.

Hopefully this year will be better.

For Jagr...I don't understand how you're criticizing Black Tank's thoughts on the correct system for these players by saying "that's Renney's system!" and referencing how all that did was get this team to the playoffs.

Can you tell me where Tortorella's system got the team last year after his predecessor took them to the post season every year since the lockout?

You also were fairly inaccurate saying it always resulted in first round exits. We were one game away from the ECF if Drury doesn't score with 7 seconds left. That's a huge difference then saying it was one of many first round exits.

I like Torts, but I'm not going to pat him on the back until he accomplishes something.
The rangers were one win away from making the playoffs last year. Thats where torts got them. Its not like renney had them finishing in the top 5 every year. Some years he battled to get in to the playoffs as well. We win that game against philly and then torts in the playoffs. The organization wasnt satisfied with just making it to the playoffs and getting knocked out. And yeah there that one year where they were so close but the fact is they did not make it to the conference finals.

And where tort's system got them? How long has his system been here? You cant expect a system to work right away when a bunch of the players had been playing a defensive style game for years under the previous coach. There is just no patience on this board and fan base. Yeah torts altered his system as the season went on because he had no time to wait while in season during his first full year with players that didnt fit into the system.

This year they have fleshed out the players that dont fit. They have nice new young players. They've added other parts. They still might add more with the new cap space. And if they dont they can go out and acquire a piece later on.

I'm not going to pat torts on the back because improvement is still needed. But I'm also not going deem is system ineffective when he barely was able to use it last year because he didnt have the right components for it to work plus it was still very new to the players.

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Old
10-07-2010, 10:17 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
Yeah agreed Brooklyn.

I'm not sure what personnel Torts is "bringing in".

How people assume the moves we make would be greatly different regardless of coach is beyond me.

Like if this offseason Glen goes out and gets Brad Richards, it's only because Tortorella knows him from Tampa and wanted him here for his system.

If patience is a virtue, then shouldn't we have stuck with Renney? You know, the guy who got the team to the post season every year he was here?

I guess people only have patience when they think they're the ones being "fair" to the head coach that they like.
I have patience and I liked renney. But I think torts is a valuable coach as well with a stanley cup under his belt.

yes the coach doesnt bring the personnel in but you cant tell me he doesnt have any say. You cannot possibly tell me sather didnt speak at all to torts about frolov, fedetenko, bringing back prospal, biron, etc. The moves might not be different at all regardless of who is the coach, but again i still believe torts gets a say. What's the point of bringing someone if he isnt gona fit? Just for the sake of saying you acquired someone who could possibly help?

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Old
10-07-2010, 10:44 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagr68NYR94Leetch View Post
The rangers were one win away from making the playoffs last year. Thats where torts got them. Its not like renney had them finishing in the top 5 every year. Some years he battled to get in to the playoffs as well. We win that game against philly and then torts in the playoffs. The organization wasnt satisfied with just making it to the playoffs and getting knocked out. And yeah there that one year where they were so close but the fact is they did not make it to the conference finals.

And where tort's system got them? How long has his system been here? You cant expect a system to work right away when a bunch of the players had been playing a defensive style game for years under the previous coach. There is just no patience on this board and fan base. Yeah torts altered his system as the season went on because he had no time to wait while in season during his first full year with players that didnt fit into the system.

This year they have fleshed out the players that dont fit. They have nice new young players. They've added other parts. They still might add more with the new cap space. And if they dont they can go out and acquire a piece later on.

I'm not going to pat torts on the back because improvement is still needed. But I'm also not going deem is system ineffective when he barely was able to use it last year because he didnt have the right components for it to work plus it was still very new to the players.
I think my point, and maybe some others on here as well, is that we're basing our opinion (atleast I am) on the things that have actually happend since Tortorella has been here.

We've seen a run that was not un-common of every Renney team when he took over, and then an absolute disaster from a coache's perspective in the postseason (being a complete hypocrite with the Avery situation and getting himself suspended, and blowing a 3-1 series lead).

We've also seen an entire season of him not being able to make the necessary adjustments to get this team to play consistent for 60 or so games.

I can respect you opinion on wanting to give him time, but to get angered at folks who are critical of him based on what has actually happened so far doesn't make sense to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagr68NYR94Leetch View Post
I have patience and I liked renney. But I think torts is a valuable coach as well with a stanley cup under his belt.

yes the coach doesnt bring the personnel in but you cant tell me he doesnt have any say. You cannot possibly tell me sather didnt speak at all to torts about frolov, fedetenko, bringing back prospal, biron, etc. The moves might not be different at all regardless of who is the coach, but again i still believe torts gets a say. What's the point of bringing someone if he isnt gona fit? Just for the sake of saying you acquired someone who could possibly help?
In your first comment, you want to give the coach a pass because the roster doesn't fit his system, but then me and others are supposed to care that he has won a Stanley Cup years ago in Tampa?

Is it the coach who deserves the credit or the players? He can't get credit for winning a Cup and then get a free pass for last season.

It's always a mix of both.

My point isn't that Glen doesn't discuss matters with the coach, but rather that obvious things the team might need are going to be addressed regardless of who is behind the bench.

The need for a number one center is not something that will change whether Torts is the coach or not.

Saying he needs players to fit his system is one thing, but if it requires obtaining players that the team would need regardless, then I don't see how he again would deserve credit if those moves did in fact occur and paid dividends.

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