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Old
10-09-2010, 07:19 AM
  #26
Czech Your Math
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
I posted some stuff above in regards to numbers. In regards to the extremely flawed stat that is +/-... well, I'm going to do nothing other than say: 1. Detroit's 05-06 goaltending, 2. Mathieu Schneider, and 3. Lidstrom being the one and only go to guy against any top line on that Wings' teams defense.
Plus-minus has its flaws, but many give considerable weight to adjusted plus-minus, and it's rather obvious that a +34 player on a team that is even without him would be rated way, way higher than a player who was +21 on a team that was +39 without him on the ice. If the differences were minor, it would be a wash, but this is not a minor difference, this is a huge difference.

Lidstrom was the main shutdown defenseman, but they also had Chelios and a host of capable two-way and checking forwards (Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Yzerman, Draper, Maltby ,etc.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
I'd be glad to give a more in depth analysis of defensive play if you care to use a stat that's actually relevant in any meaningful way to defense. I will acknowledge ahead of time defense is extremely difficult to break down statistically and is better done through play. However, even for a subpar defensive year by Lidstrom's standards, he still matches up better defensively against his peers than Jagr does against his peers. Actually, Lidstrom matches up well against anyone defensively while Jagr simply does not. Not a floater (when he's giving 100%), but far and away from a defensive stalwart. Combine this with the offensive comparison...
As you say, there is no definitive statistic to assess defense. However, while Jagr was never a shutdown defensive player, he was competent and much more importantly his line controlled the puck for extended periods of time, which did not require them to play a defensive-oriented game.

How do you explain Jagr being +34 when he was typically on the ice with this cast:

Straka-Nylander-Jagr
Malik-Rozsival
Lundqvist

While he was ahead of every other forward in the league, including those on this line:

Heatley-Spezza-Alfredsson
take your pick out of Chara, Volchenkov, Redden, Meszaros, Phillips, Neil
Hasek

To even be close to the plus-minus of that line is incredible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
Jagr scored 123 points that season and was surpassed in that season by 125 points (Big Joe). He was approached in a considerably lower season by Crosby with 120 points in 3 less gp.
First, I thought you were focusing on 2006. Still, to be in the same range as the career years of two #1 picks, one an already nearly certain HOFer (Thornton) and the other projected to be a top 10 center of all-time, is not exactly a black mark. When you consider that Jagr had a similar point total, but had many more goals than either player did and a better plus-minus on an inferior team, it makes t all the more impressive. As you realize that this wasn't the best season of Jagr's career (and yet he still shattered an O6 franchise's season records for points and goals), but in fact he had several seasons of greater or equal value, you should recognize why Jagr was one of the best players of all time, not merely a "top 10-15 winger."

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
Lidstrom, meanwhile, outscored his opposition in 05-06 by 80 to 71 points. The closest since is 76. Not only does Lidstrom take a comparison to his peers in a matter of pure numbers (+10 and +4 differential vs -2 and +3 differential for Jagr) but this is further exaggerated by a matter of percentage.
Again, so outscoring Zubov, McCabe, Kaberle, and Visnovsky while playing for the best team in the league is better than basically equaling or outscoring Thornton, Ovechkin, Crosby, etc. while playing for a team that was picked to be at or near the bottom of the league? The comparison of the amounts by which they outscored or were outscored by were statistically insignificant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
Rather than propel his offense to career totals, Lidstrom damned near was the offense. He was only 7 points behind the highest scoring forward on his team and 21 points above the 2nd highest scoring d-man... for whom that was, by the way, a career year in points, 59 points for Schneider compared to his previous career high of 52 in a higher scoring era.
He had a great offensive year, but to say he nearly "was the offense" considering the talent on that team is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? By comparison, Jagr WAS THE OFFENSE. The only reason his next highest teammate (Nylander) was within 44 points of Jagr was that he centered Jagr, plain and simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
There's also the roughly 6 minutes extra TOI Lidstrom had per game. Not unusual for d-man, but then when you consider that Lidstrom was taking 5:11 PK TOI/G (on the lowest [or damn near it] penalized team in the league), compared to Jagr's whopping 20 seconds a game... well, Lidstrom puts up a more offensively dominant season as a d-man than Jagr does as a forward with almost no more ES/PP time (and the additional wear/tear of almost 5 minutes more average PK time).
Defensemen are not generally as offensively skilled as forwards... that's why they are defensemen. Hence, it's much easier to outpoint other defensemen than to outpoint the best forwards in the game. To say that Lidstrom had a more OFFENSIVELY dominant season than Jagr, even disregarding the massive gap in the respective talents of their teams, is just absurd. Puh-leazz!

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Old
10-09-2010, 08:01 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Jagr had one point in the playoffs, because after the first game, he played the remainder of the series with one arm, due to an injury which required major reconstructive shoulder surgery during the offseason. He had one point and nine shots in the first game of the series, and although he only ended up with one point and ten shots in the series, the only teammate to surpass EITHER total was Blair Betts, the fourth line center with two points.
And his injuries are a result of his style of play, a quality Lidstrom notably lacks. When injuries a part of the package... well, you get the whole package. Sucks if it happens at the wrong time. In any case, the playoffs is almost entirely irrelevant to the 05-06 debate between these two players.


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The margins by which they outscored their competition are not significantly different (in the statistical sense).
Roughly 11% difference is fairly significant.

Quote:
Needless to say (I hope), it is harder to outscore Thornton, Ovechkin, Crosby, and the Heatley-Spezza-Alfredsson line, etc. while playing with 33 y/o linemates who have never scored a point/game without you, than it is to outscore, Zubov, McCabe, Kaberle and Visnovsky while playing on a power play that features forwards like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Shanahan, Lang, Holmstrom, Samuelsson, Franzen and Yzerman.
Your assumption of the strength of the power play assumes each of those players being in the top form of their career.

Yzerman: Was on his last legs. Or last knee, anyhow. Was just over .5 PPG in the season.

Lang: While he didn't play terribly on the Red Wings, he did constantly underperform (and it showed in a decrease in his offensive generation despite a higher rate of scoring in the league). This isn't counting his often questionable defensive play, since we're talking offense.

Shanahan: Shanny still had it at this point, though he didn't fit as well in the system.

Datsyuk, Zetterberg: Their first good offensive year. However, they were 18th and 20th in scoring, and, while that's not bad, it's also not as scary as their names may suggest.

Samuelsson: Was something of a gamble pickup at the time. Turned out to be a good one, but even his surprising 05-06 performance is still far short of being a shock and awe powerplay name.

Franzen: Was a banger that scored all of 14 points in 81gp. Irrelevant name at this time.

Holmstrom: Had a good year on the PP

As it's clear you're somewhat lacking in regards to the subject matter, perhaps add in Jason Williams, yea, that Williams, who had a respectable 24 points on the powerplay, instead of Franzen (who didn't have a single PP point).

But yes, Detroit had a respectable PP that year with 52 goals (9th in the league), and the best percentage in the league, compared to a much more middling NYR team. However, for all the names you put out, Lidstrom's is by far the most notable... he was, far and away, the Red Wings point leader on the powerplay. And to assert that he was leeching off the others was absurd; he was far and away the leader (50 points) on the powerplay over anyone else on the team and was the driving force behind that machine. If anything, an argument of the powerplay supports Lidstrom for how incredibly dominant he was on it.

Quote:
Your assertion is puzzling, by chance have you looked at the composition of those two teams?
Admittedly lacking in clarity on my behalf. I was comparing Lidstrom's teams to his competitor's (Hawks 09-10, Stars 05-06) teams, and Jagr's to that of his competitors (Pens 06-07, MostlySharks 05-06). The composition is fairly close, as are the standings (with the notable exception of the cup winning Hawks vs the 05-06 Wings).

Quote:
Also, in the last 14 years, the only other season above Jagr's 123 points in 2006 was Thornton's 125 that year (which featured Jagr's concussion in the Olympics and a trade of Thornton to a team which had two more games remaining than his former team).
Also, in the last 14 years, 05-06 was the highest scoring year of hockey, which works to the favor of both contestants. In the last 14 years, Lidstrom's 80 in 80 was the highest scoring d-man with the exception of absolutely noone. And again, if you want to argue Jagr's concussion as having an effect, that's a result of his play.

Remove the factors that are a part of Jagr's concussion and you remove part of what made Jagr a great player. If Lidstrom played a more risky style of game he might have more points. We can play the conjecture game all day.

Quote:
You didn't do a statistical defensive comparison, yet as I stated in my previous post, Jagr was a +34 on a team which was even (0) without him on the ice... while Lidstrom, who has more ice time, was +21 on a team that was +39 without him on the ice. One thing most would agree on is that Jagr was basically the reason his team was +34... while Lidstrom was not statistically better, and if anything somehwat less than average on his team, in terms of the advantage he imparted to his team at even strength.
Again, because you're using +/- as if it is even a remotely reasonable tool in this sort of analysis, whether for defense or other purposes. It's not. If you want to use a defensive statistical tool that is at least somewhat relevant, then I welcome you to bring one in. ESGA/Qcomp might be a place to start, though when it comes to defense, I first and foremost insist on watching the game.

Quote:
I don't really believe Lidstrom's Obi-wan Kenobe impression is more valuable than Jagr's ability to control the puck for long periods, create myriad of scoring chances and have a substantially better plus-minus without another skater on his team that would lhave likely made Detroit's top two lines or D pairings that season.
+/- nearly invalidates your point again, but at the same time I do recognize that Jagr was a force. This is undeniable. However, I also postulate that Lidstrom is no less of a force and thus at best, this comes out as a wash. In regards to your latter assertion, you've turned to hyperbole; Nylander or Straka would certainly have been preferable to Lang or Jason Williams or Mikael Samuelsson, and for that matter I'd take Roszival over anyone on the Wings defense except Lidstrom or Schneider. Hell, possibly over Schneider too, and certainly over the illustrious Jason Woolley or Andreas Lilja. Actually, give me Tyutin or Poti over either of those guys, too.

Oh, and since we're comparing teams and you insist on +/-, allow me to see Jagr's +/- with Legace or 05-06 Ozzie behind him and Lidstrom's with Lundqvist.

Quote:
While I understand your preference for a top 5 d-man over a top 10-15 winger, you may want to check your premises, because the majority of historians would probably consider Jagr one of the top 5 wingers and top 10-15 forwards of all-time, and many would consider him one of the top 10-15 skaters of all-time. Basically, to call Jagr a top 10-15 winger is like calling Hasek a top 10-15 goalie or Bourque (or Lidstrom) a top 10-15 defenseman.
That was my mistake, I changed my train of thought halfway through typing that and typed winger in the place of forward. Jagr is certainly arguable as a top 5 winger.

Quote:
I understand that there may be bias in awards, and don't find them the most objective way of evaluating players, but to equate a Norris with a Pearson is quite a stretch IMO.
Not really, Lindsay/Pearson is essentially the forward's award. Unless you seriously want to argue that during his period of dominance, Orr was the best player in the league for an entire 1 season. The fact that Hasek has 2 speaks to how bizarrely good he was. Pearson vs Norris is near to a wash for me, and Hart vs Norris isn't much better. When there is a 'best defenseman award, and there is a 'best goalie' award, but there isn't a 'best forward' award, such is bound to happen.


Quote:
It's almost hard to take your post seriously, but I replied seriously.
I suppose I could say likewise on both accounts, but we both made simple and easily correctable errors in our respective posts (and I for one appreciate being called out on them).

To touch a couple more before I hit the sack:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Defensemen are not generally as offensively skilled as forwards... that's why they are defensemen. Hence, it's much easier to outpoint other defensemen than to outpoint the best forwards in the game. To say that Lidstrom had a more OFFENSIVELY dominant season than Jagr, even disregarding the massive gap in the respective talents of their teams, is just absurd. Puh-leazz!
In comparing Lidstrom to his peers (defensemen) and comparing Jagr to his peers (forwards), he did. Lidstrom beat out defensemen by 10%, Jagr didn't even win the race.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
He had a great offensive year, but to say he nearly "was the offense" considering the talent on that team is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? By comparison, Jagr WAS THE OFFENSE. The only reason his next highest teammate (Nylander) was within 44 points of Jagr was that he centered Jagr, plain and simple.
No, he nearly was the offense and the prime stabilizing factor on that Wings team. Both teams (NYR and DET) would've been wretched without Jagr and Lidstrom, respectively. Detroit's goaltending was ugly, they had a new coach, their Captain was more or less finished, Shanahan didn't get along well with the new coach, they were adapting to completely new lines, Jason ****ing Williams... etc. Not saying Detroit wasn't a better team, but both teams were being held together by these two individuals in question.

In regards to the numbers, Nylander was 44 points removed from Jagr's 123, and Schneider's was 21 removed from Lidstrom's 80. Percentage-wise, both are very notable, advantage Jagr. However, Lidstrom being 7 points behind the leading forward PPG+ forward on the team as a defensemen is also a very notable statistical oddity.

And now, some rest. What the hell does it matter, anyhow? We're both clearly homers by HFlogic


Last edited by Mantha Poodoo: 10-09-2010 at 08:13 AM.
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Old
10-09-2010, 10:50 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
And his injuries are a result of his style of play, a quality Lidstrom notably lacks. When injuries a part of the package... well, you get the whole package. Sucks if it happens at the wrong time. In any case, the playoffs is almost entirely irrelevant to the 05-06 debate between these two players.
Actually, that injury was the result of a very atypical play for Jagr... the throwing of a punch. However, I'm guessing you are partly right in that it was likely precipitated by previous damage to his shoulder.

True, playoffs are often not considered when evaluating a single season, and certainly any games Jagr played after injuring his shoulder should be considered irrelevant in evaluating his performance for that season. However, IIRC this was a response to your mentioning that their playoff performances were equal and then giving the edge to Lidstrom since he had equal production as a defenseman.

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Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
Roughly 11% difference is fairly significant.
I should have read more closely, was basing this on ranges of 1-2.5% for the two players.

The difference is in the competition and composition of their teams. Lidstrom had to outscore Zubov and Niedermayer, while playing on a stacked team. Jagr had to outscore Thornton, Ovechkin, Crosby, Heatley, Alfredsson, etc. while on a team that without he and Lundqvist was a cellar dweller.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
As it's clear you're somewhat lacking in regards to the subject matter, perhaps add in Jason Williams, yea, that Williams, who had a respectable 24 points on the powerplay, instead of Franzen (who didn't have a single PP point).
I could have looked at their stats closer, but was just trying to give a general impression of differnce in the depth of offensive talent on each team, and swapping one player does little to change this fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
But yes, Detroit had a respectable PP that year with 52 goals (9th in the league), and the best percentage in the league, compared to a much more middling NYR team. However, for all the names you put out, Lidstrom's is by far the most notable... he was, far and away, the Red Wings point leader on the powerplay. And to assert that he was leeching off the others was absurd; he was far and away the leader (50 points) on the powerplay over anyone else on the team and was the driving force behind that machine. If anything, an argument of the powerplay supports Lidstrom for how incredibly dominant he was on it.
I didn't mean to imply that Lidstrom was leeching, as I said he was the QB of the power play, but talent reinforces itself and such talent was sorely lacking on the Rangers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
Admittedly lacking in clarity on my behalf. I was comparing Lidstrom's teams to his competitor's (Hawks 09-10, Stars 05-06) teams, and Jagr's to that of his competitors (Pens 06-07, MostlySharks 05-06). The composition is fairly close, as are the standings (with the notable exception of the cup winning Hawks vs the 05-06 Wings).
Thanks for clarifying that. I would still assert that, for instance, Marleau and Cheechoo in 2006 or Malkin and Gonchar in 2007 were substantially better than Nylander and Straka in 2006.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
Also, in the last 14 years, 05-06 was the highest scoring year of hockey, which works to the favor of both contestants. In the last 14 years, Lidstrom's 80 in 80 was the highest scoring d-man with the exception of absolutely noone. And again, if you want to argue Jagr's concussion as having an effect, that's a result of his play.
Correct, it was the highest scoring year in recent memory. Again, the depth of offensive talent of the best defensemen in the dead puck era (Bourque, Leetch, Niedermayer, Gonchar, Zubov and few others) is to me not of the same caliber as the depth of offensive talent of the best forwards in the dead puck era (Lemieux, Jagr, Ovechkin, Forsberg, Lindros, Sakic, Selanne, Crosby, Selanne, Thornton, Kariya, Malkin, Bure, Mogilny, Gretzky, Messier, Yzerman).

Jagr's concussion in the Olympics was the result of a questionable hit and the fact that the Olympics were even taking place. Thornton's team was eliminated earlier, resulting in three extra games for Jagr's team on their way to a medal. Jagr played all 82 games with a broken finger (as a result of a slash during lockout season), while Thornton played 81 games. However, Thornton actually missed 3 games, but because San Jose had played two fewer games at the time of the trade, he was able to make up two of those three games. Effectively, Thornton had 84 potential NHL games and Jagr had 82. Since they ended up two points apart, even without factoring in the extra games Jagr played during the Olympics and the concussion he sustained in a non-NHL game, the extra NHL games were an advantage that in and of itself was probably enough to prevent Jagr's 2006 season from being the highest point season of the past 10 years. To penalize Jagr for being outscored seems even more absurd to me, given this fact.

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Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
Remove the factors that are a part of Jagr's concussion and you remove part of what made Jagr a great player. If Lidstrom played a more risky style of game he might have more points. We can play the conjecture game all day.
Again, if it happened in an NHL game, I would not consider it relevant to a comparison of the two players during that season.

Actually, the only two concussions Jagr had that I recall were during the past two Olympics, although it's likely he had others. Except for a shoulder injury that I believe he first sustained in the offseason in 2000, the only other NHL injury that has caused Jagr to miss significant time has been hamstring injuries in '97 and 2000, which isn't the result of a physical puck possession style, although it could be at least partially attributed to his power skating. Either way, the only reason I deem it relevant in terms of single season actual value is due to injury in a non-NHL contest.

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Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
Again, because you're using +/- as if it is even a remotely reasonable tool in this sort of analysis, whether for defense or other purposes. It's not. If you want to use a defensive statistical tool that is at least somewhat relevant, then I welcome you to bring one in. ESGA/Qcomp might be a place to start, though when it comes to defense, I first and foremost insist on watching the game.
That's your opinion that plus-minus is irrelevant. I agree that raw plus-minus is of very dubious value, but adjusted plus-minus or similar analysis that puts plus-minus in context of the team's even strength ability seems of value to me. Many others find this to be a quite meaningful measure of value, although it does not yet seem to have the wider acceptance of, say, adjusted points. However, until Hockey Reference listed adjusted points, it was not widely accepted either, but only existed as independent conceptions of various individuals who saw it as a fairer way to measure players' offensive stats. Similarly, Overpass created and shared his adjusted plus-minus concept and data, and I believe it too will gain momentum, since the concept has substantial validity.

If you refuse to recognize the value of such data, that is your choice, but it's an individual choice and not a universal truth. To deny there is significant validity in such a concept, but then instead use measures such as "Lidstrom outscored the next best defenseman by 11% and I watched him play great defense" is not exactly overwhelming evidence to me of overall dominant play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
+/- nearly invalidates your point again, but at the same time I do recognize that Jagr was a force. This is undeniable. However, I also postulate that Lidstrom is no less of a force and thus at best, this comes out as a wash. In regards to your latter assertion, you've turned to hyperbole; Nylander or Straka would certainly have been preferable to Lang or Jason Williams or Mikael Samuelsson, and for that matter I'd take Roszival over anyone on the Wings defense except Lidstrom or Schneider. Hell, possibly over Schneider too, and certainly over the illustrious Jason Woolley or Andreas Lilja. Actually, give me Tyutin or Poti over either of those guys, too.
I don't deny that Lidstrom was a force, but don't believe that he was considerably better overall than Jagr.

Perhaps I exaggerated slightly, as the Rangers' best defenseman (Rozsival) probably could have made the second D-pairing (possibly
only because Kronwall wasn't quite ready for a full season).

However, I still find it doubtful that Nylander is the second line center over Lang, although it's possible. Also doubtful that Straka
is a second line wing, with Detroit's depth at the position, especially looking at his peformance before the lockout and the fact that one of his main strengths was his familiarity with Jagr. Straka was a very good player during his career, but ask Ranger fans how many goals he could have had in 2006... Jagr set him up constantly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
Oh, and since we're comparing teams and you insist on +/-, allow me to see Jagr's +/- with Legace or 05-06 Ozzie behind him and Lidstrom's with Lundqvist.
I think Jagr would have had a substantially better plus-minus on those powerful Detroit teams. He frequently had very good plus-minus numbers on Pittsburgh teams with a weak defensive corps and a constant shuffling of goalies. If we're not just talking about 2006, how would Lidstrom have fared without a dedicated competent checking line and goalies such as post-prime Barrasso, Wregget, Lalime, Tugnutt, Aubin, Snow, and Skudra?

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Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
That was my mistake, I changed my train of thought halfway through typing that and typed winger in the place of forward. Jagr is certainly arguable as a top 5 winger.
Okay, I can relate to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
Not really, Lindsay/Pearson is essentially the forward's award. Unless you seriously want to argue that during his period of dominance, Orr was the best player in the league for an entire 1 season. The fact that Hasek has 2 speaks to how bizarrely good he was. Pearson vs Norris is near to a wash for me, and Hart vs Norris isn't much better. When there is a 'best defenseman award, and there is a 'best goalie' award, but there isn't a 'best forward' award, such is bound to happen.
I don't dispute the bias in that or any award based on voting, but still believe a Pearson has more value than a Norris. Also, you were the one to bring up awards, I did not base my evaluation of the players on this, but rather on statistical evidence in the context of the teams they played on, which seems a much fairer way of assessing their respective values. Since you deny the validity of this as well, am I supposed to accept that outscoring Sergei Zubov by 9 points and Lidstrom's calming presence is irrefutable proof that Lidstrom was vastly superior to Jagr during the 2006 season?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
I suppose I could say likewise on both accounts, but we both made simple and easily correctable errors in our respective posts (and I for one appreciate being called out on them).
I appreciate admitting errors and that anyone can mix up his facts from time to time. I just find your selection of criteria arbitrary. To deny contextually adjusted plus-minus data and to bring up and the perception of NHL players, but then base Lidstrom's superiority on his outscoring some good but not great D-man peers and your own perception of Lidstrom's defensive ability and ability to control the game (and claim that is better than Jagr outscoring all but one forward, and that under unusual circumstances detailed previously in this post... as well as him being recognized as controlling the play and the puck like few others in hockey history)... well, it's not the most convincing argument.

I'm not saying Lidstrom was absolutely less valuable than Jagr that season, only that I believe that to be the case and base that on the vast disparity in the advantage his team had while he was on the ice, especially given the respective players surrounding them.

Remember also that you disputed the OP's choice for that year, which no one else had, so it would seem the burden of proof would be on you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
In comparing Lidstrom to his peers (defensemen) and comparing Jagr to his peers (forwards), he did. Lidstrom beat out defensemen by 10%, Jagr didn't even win the race.
When it comes to winning offensive races, I wouldn't call out a guy like Jagr to promote the offensive skill of Lidstrom. Just because a Camry outraces a Civic and a Ferrari finishes second due to a blown tire or because another driver cut a corner, doesn't mean the Camry is going to beat the Ferrari. No backwards logic will make this so. Except now we know that:

In 2008, Lidstrom outscored Gonchar by almost 8% (over 10% per game), but Ovechkin outscored Malkin by less than 6%. Since Lidstrom was better defensively than these players, then we know that Lidstrom was better than either of these guys. Also, in 2009 Mike Green oustcored Markov by about 14% (over 28% per game), but Malkin outscored by Ovechkin by less than 3% (AO outscored him by < 1% per game). Green doesn't play the greatest defense, but as a D-man he must play better defense than these two cherry pickers, so we know he's way better than either of them.
Dam we're smooth!

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
No, he nearly was the offense and the prime stabilizing factor on that Wings team. Both teams (NYR and DET) would've been wretched without Jagr and Lidstrom, respectively. Detroit's goaltending was ugly, they had a new coach, their Captain was more or less finished, Shanahan didn't get along well with the new coach, they were adapting to completely new lines, Jason ****ing Williams... etc. Not saying Detroit wasn't a better team, but both teams were being held together by these two individuals in question.
They both had important roles on their teams, to be sure. Lidstrom helped one of the top teams be the best team in hockey. Jagr helped a mediocre (at best) team be a good team and almost win the division. No decisive advantage by this metric.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
In regards to the numbers, Nylander was 44 points removed from Jagr's 123, and Schneider's was 21 removed from Lidstrom's 80. Percentage-wise, both are very notable, advantage Jagr. However, Lidstrom being 7 points behind the leading forward PPG+ forward on the team as a defensemen is also a very notable statistical oddity.
One difference is that I doubt Lidstrom and Schneider were constantly paired together. However, Jagr played almost exclusively with Nylander and Straka as linemates and often with them on the power play and yet he had over 50% more points than each of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
And now, some rest. What the hell does it matter, anyhow? We're both clearly homers by HFlogic
You're entitled to your opinion. What bothers me is the method you use to come to your conclusion. Sure, we are both biased to some degree. Still, I try to use scientific method if possible. Start with a hypothesis (you could call it a bias), use facts to support it, and if most of the facts contradict the hypothesis (no matter whose facts or hypothesis), be open to a new hypothesis. Rest well.

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