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Old
10-08-2010, 12:14 PM
  #51
04' hockey
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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
I said it in the GDT, but JVR looked like a man last night.

There was one play where he held off a dman with one hand and worked the puck from the side of the net to behind with the other, definitely the types of things I like to see from a guy with a unique combo of size, strength and skill.

He was also super fast and his shot seemed to explode alot more than last year.

I just wish he had more ice time... I definitely do not agree with his PP snub (even though I'm pretty sure I called that in an argument a month ago) last night either... we need that big body, especially when Pronger gets back and starts blasting.
B-I-N-G-O !! big boys, the LeCairs, Neely's, Espo's et al paid the price and excelled, JVR can really help the cause playing like those legends. It'll eventually help his savings account too.


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10-08-2010, 12:26 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by 04' hockey View Post
B-I-N-G-O !! big boys, the LeCairs, Neely's, Espo's et al paid the price and excelled, JVR can really help the cause playing like those legends. It'll eventually help his savings account too.

Have you ever seen JvR play? Those guys don't have half the hands that he does. He can do a hell of a lot more than stand in front of the net once he grows into his frame.

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10-08-2010, 12:35 PM
  #53
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I still can't understand how last year so many people wanted his head..I have my goats but JVR was not one of them despite him running into a wall in the second half. The dude was out of college but you could see his potential. It was just a case of growing into his frame and getting more conditioning. To me it was similar to Justin Williams....Hitchcock in particular was way too hard on the kid and we traded him and of course he flourished although now he's about as brittle as a 200 year old piece of parchment...

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10-08-2010, 01:30 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
I still can't understand how last year so many people wanted his head..I have my goats but JVR was not one of them despite him running into a wall in the second half. The dude was out of college but you could see his potential. It was just a case of growing into his frame and getting more conditioning. To me it was similar to Justin Williams....Hitchcock in particular was way too hard on the kid and we traded him and of course he flourished although now he's about as brittle as a 200 year old piece of parchment...
The problem is that he is being compared to Kane who came in and produced right away.
Not every rookie excels at the NHL level from the get-go, JvR will get there, especially with creative players like Roo and Z. He's going to have a big year and this line will soon be our #1

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10-08-2010, 03:17 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
Have you ever seen JvR play? Those guys don't have half the hands that he does. He can do a hell of a lot more than stand in front of the net once he grows into his frame.



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Old
10-09-2010, 09:53 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by 04' hockey View Post


The hand over the eyes emoticon... is that you when you watch Flyers games? Could explain your inability to see what the kid brings to the table.

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10-09-2010, 11:32 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
The hand over the eyes emoticon... is that you when you watch Flyers games? Could explain your inability to see what the kid brings to the table.
Only when a player doesn't play to his potential with his OBVIOUS skill set!

EVERY high draft pick "brings to the table" or they wouldn't be drafted in the 1st rd., ESPECIALLY 2nd overall !!

I used to watch lindros like that sometimes, especially in the playoffs and when his GM challenged him to play like the highest paid player !

Potential is just that.....productivity is all that matters at the NHL level. I hope JVR produces like you guys think he will.....honest.


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10-09-2010, 11:42 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by 04' hockey View Post
how old are you ?

Giroux MAYBE.....just what has JVR shown so far ?,most purely skilled EVER ??

How old I am is irrelevant....older than then probably 75% of the people on these boards I bet.

Do you watch anything other than Flyers games?? If you have, then you would understand the skill that JVR has......Keep in mind, skill and physical talent do not always = success.

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10-09-2010, 11:43 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04' hockey View Post
Only when a player doesn't play to his potential with his OBVIOUS skill set!

EVERY high draft pick "brings to the table" or they wouldn't be drafted in the 1st rd., ESPECIALLY 2nd overall !!

I used to watch lindros like that sometimes, especially in the playoffs and when his GM challenged him to play like the highest paid player !

Potential is just that.....productivity is all that matters at the NHL level. I hope JVR produces like you guys think he will.....honest.

Bobby Ryan PPG at the age of 20, first 23 games (his entire 2007-08 NHL season):

0.435 PPG
0.217 GPG

James vanRiemsdyk PPG at the age of 20, first 23 games (about 1/4 of his 1st season):

0.826 PPG
0.261 GPG

Another little hint, and even though it may not necessarily apply completely to JVR, productivity at the NHL level level is a LOT more than statistical production.

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10-09-2010, 11:46 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Bobby Ryan PPG at the age of 20, first 23 games (his entire 2007-08 NHL season):

0.435 PPG
0.217 GPG

James vanRiemsdyk PPG at the age of 30, first 23 games (about 1/4 of his 1st season):

0.826 PPG
0.261 GPG
Looks like we have another know it all on our hands Chris....probably not even worth it....

Any half-wit that watches JVR can see the skill he has......and knows that the bigger players take a few years to grow into their body and really hit their stride....and that college plays what, 31 games a year compared to a full NHL season.

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Old
10-09-2010, 11:53 AM
  #61
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Sometimes I hate the fact that the Flyers have 8 Top 6 forwards.

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Old
10-09-2010, 11:53 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Looks like we have another know it all on our hands Chris....probably not even worth it....

Any half-wit that watches JVR can see the skill he has......and knows that the bigger players take a few years to grow into their body and really hit their stride....and that college plays what, 31 games a year compared to a full NHL season.
JVR played 99 games last season including playoffs.

He averaged 33 games a season in college.

He was on fire for something like the first 1/3rd of his rookie season, which is...33 games.

Funny how it works out like that?

You can tell how quickly JVR got tired last year. That's nothing particularly due to conditioning, but he was never prepared for a full, long drawn out season like many of these CHL kids were.

Ryan averaged 71.75 games per season in the four years before his NHL debut.
vanRiemsdyk averaged 30.75 games per season in the four years before his NHL debut.

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Old
10-09-2010, 12:00 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
How old I am is irrelevant....older than then probably 75% of the people on these boards I bet.

Do you watch anything other than Flyers games?? If you have, then you would understand the skill that JVR has......



"Keep in mind, skill and physical talent do not always = success.
"


THAT'S W-T-F I'M SAYING !!!

I'm not waiting till the Flyers game starts tonite to drink, I NEED to dull the senses NOW !

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Old
10-09-2010, 12:09 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Bobby Ryan PPG at the age of 20, first 23 games (his entire 2007-08 NHL season):

0.435 PPG
0.217 GPG

James vanRiemsdyk PPG at the age of 20, first 23 games (about 1/4 of his 1st season):

0.826 PPG
0.261 GPG

Another little hint, and even though it may not necessarily apply completely to JVR, productivity at the NHL level level is a LOT more than statistical production.
While I am a big believer in JVR's potential, and been quite vocal about it.

20 games is useless for predicting much of anything... particularly the first 20 games of the year when the NHL as a whole is quite sloppy as far as the quality of play.

Even then, if you take out JVRs stats over the course of the whole season and compare him to the other rookies in the league, he did extremely well given his lack of ice time compared to others (especially on the PP).

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10-09-2010, 12:12 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
While I am a big believer in JVR's potential, and been quite vocal about it.

20 games is useless for predicting much of anything... particularly the first 20 games of the year when the NHL as a whole is quite sloppy as far as the quality of play.
I never said that such a small sample size was intended to imply anything more than JVR certainly has the ability and skill to produce a significant amount at the NHL level.

Just because the numbers are out there compared to Ryan, it's not meant to imply that he will be a vastly superior player to Ryan, if he even ends up a better player.

That said, I wish you wouldn't misinterpret things and suggest that I'm saying something deeper than my original intention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Even then, if you take out JVRs stats over the course of the whole season and compare him to the other rookies in the league, he did extremely well given his lack of ice time compared to others (especially on the PP).
Agreed. Some people forget that for a large chunk of the season, JVR was actually the rookie PPG leader, and he did it with very limited minutes, fairly limited linemates, and virtually no PP time.

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Old
10-09-2010, 12:26 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I never said that such a small sample size was intended to imply anything more than JVR certainly has the ability and skill to produce a significant amount at the NHL level.

Just because the numbers are out there compared to Ryan, it's not meant to imply that he will be a vastly superior player to Ryan, if he even ends up a better player.

That said, I wish you wouldn't misinterpret things and suggest that I'm saying something deeper than my original intention.
Who is misinterpreting anything? You put statistics into direct comparison as if they had some value (which they don't, really). You need to write with a bit more clarity/context when using stats, especially if you're going to put stats side by side as a comparison and write:

Quote:
Another little hint, and even though it may not necessarily apply completely to JVR, productivity at the NHL level level is a LOT more than statistical production.
Hint of what?

That bolded statement up there... not something you can draw from a 20 game sample at the start of the year. You can't draw that from any 20 game sample, but especially not at the outset of the year when we ALWAYS see players putting up goofy numbers in the sloppy play at the outset (Brian Savage's entire career being evidence of this).

I agree that JVR has the skill to produce very big numbers in the NHL... but using a 20 game sample to do that... is an extremely poor use of statistics to support what you're attempting to say about JVR. All it tells you is that he got off to a good start before tailing off...

In fact, the other side of those stats that you could use as an interpretation is far more alarming: maybe the story of JVRs entire career will be hot starts followed by tailing off into mediocrity?

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10-09-2010, 12:39 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Who is misinterpreting anything? You put statistics into direct comparison as if they had some value (which they don't, really). You need to write with a bit more clarity/context when using stats, especially if you're going to put stats side by side as a comparison and write:
Well if you didn't assume I'm automatically overrating a player on our team, you wouldn't run into that problem.

Should I have to spell out every little detail, or maybe start a series of disclaimers as to what my exact intentions are for you to understand that? I think that's a little over the top.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Hint of what?
That was in reference to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 04' hockey View Post
Potential is just that.....productivity is all that matters at the NHL level.
If you're having trouble with context clues, which seems to be a significant issue for you, I suggest reading exactly what I was quoting before you jump to assumptions, conclusions, and arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
That bolded statement up there... not something you can draw from a 20 game sample at the start of the year. You can't draw that from any 20 game sample, but especially not at the outset of the year when we ALWAYS see players putting up goofy numbers in the sloppy play at the outset (Brian Savage's entire career being evidence of this).
It was meant to compare, in the best way possible, the first impressions of two specific, and in many ways similar, players at the NHL level. Ryan's first season was only 23 games, so I weighed them against JVR's first 23 games.

A perfect method? No, of course not.

But again, what you find by using context clues and reading the entirety of the argument at hand, is that this other poster was declaring that JVR is not producing at the NHL level and that he may not be capable of producing at the NHL level despite his skill.

The reference used was Bobby Ryan, again since Ryan is a similar player who was taken at the same spot in the draft and had a breakout year after his rookie season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I agree that JVR has the skill to produce very big numbers in the NHL... but using a 20 game sample to do that... is an extremely poor use of statistics to support what you're attempting to say about JVR. All it tells you is that he got off to a good start before tailing off...
Look at things in context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
In fact, the other side of those stats that you could use as an interpretation is far more alarming: maybe the story of JVRs entire career will be hot starts followed by tailing off into mediocrity?
Maybe it will be. What makes you imply such a suggestion? Maybe you're reading things outside of context again?

I'm beginning to notice a trend.

And no, you can reply to this, but I'm not playing anymore of these nonsensical games with you.

We're literally fighting over the best way to statistically analyze two players. You seem to insinuate that I was trying to falsify or misrepresent a set of facts by leaving out specific things.

Granted, there are other things I could've pointed out in terms of excuses as to why JVR did not score 50 points in his rookie season as a 20-year-old, but why? What's the point? What I posted, whether or not you agree with the way it was handled, clearly represents the facts that I was trying to convey; that JVR is more than capable of putting up strong numbers at the NHL level.

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10-09-2010, 12:48 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
I've been meaning to ask, but is this one of the worst draft years ever, or is it still too early to tell? When I look at teams' list of prospects, hardly any of the 2007 draft class is predicted to do anything super.
It was billed as a pretty sub-par draft going in, and it's turned out that way so far, but there's still a lot of time.

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10-09-2010, 01:11 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
We're literally fighting over the best way to statistically analyze two players. You seem to insinuate that I was trying to falsify or misrepresent a set of facts by leaving out specific things.

Granted, there are other things I could've pointed out in terms of excuses as to why JVR did not score 50 points in his rookie season as a 20-year-old, but why? What's the point? What I posted, whether or not you agree with the way it was handled, clearly represents the facts that I was trying to convey; that JVR is more than capable of putting up strong numbers at the NHL level.
That's just it: no, it doesn't. It shows he had a nice 20 game run, that's it. A 20 game sample does not a season make, let alone a career. What I'm insinuating is that you don't use statistics all that well, or with the proper regard for the limitations of statistics... especially when you're using a small sample size. And, no, it isn't shocking that you would read the most favorable possible result out of a statistic...

Frankly, you could have pulled out his entire rookie season and it wouldn't necessarily be valuable for establishing much of anything at this point... but would be a far cry better than pointing to a 20 game sample as if it is evidence in itself (as you once again claim) that JVR is capable of putting up strong numbers in the NHL.

What's more telling is that JVR produced quite well at even strength (7th on the Flyers), and that's a good sign for the future as his role increases and he gets more PP minutes.

It's really the reverse of the overvaluing that is applied to playoff statistics because the games are more important.

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10-09-2010, 01:13 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
It was billed as a pretty sub-par draft going in, and it's turned out that way so far, but there's still a lot of time.
Frankly, I think JVR has a pretty good chance of being the better "player" than Kane. Kane may be a more prolific scorer, but his size limits his game in some ways and the dude is a non-entity going the other direction.

JVR has a long way to go to get there, however.

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10-09-2010, 01:35 PM
  #71
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Another interesting point is that JVR fared much better last year when he had 2 or 3+ days or rest (15 points in 19 games) as opposed to 0 or 1 day of rest (19 points in 59 games).

Now obviously, it's a very small sample, but again, I think it shows the struggle of adopting to 3 or 4 games per week as opposed to 2 games per week on Friday/Saturday.

If he's improved his conditioning and strength (and it looks like he has), we could be talking 50 points perhaps.

One thing though, I don't think he got any PP time Thursday night. I can't really blame Lavi because our PP has been clicking so well, but that's something that might limit JVR's production, full PP time is usually worth at least an extra 20-25 points.

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Old
10-09-2010, 01:58 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
I've been meaning to ask, but is this one of the worst draft years ever, or is it still too early to tell? When I look at teams' list of prospects, hardly any of the 2007 draft class is predicted to do anything super.
It does appear at this time to be a terrible draft overall

Outside of Kane none of the Hawks other picks have amounted to anything

2nd round - 38th overall = LW Bill Sweatt
Sweatt refused to sign with Hawks and was dealt as part of Versteeg deal and then turned down the Leafs offer and became UFA and signed with Canucks

2nd round - 56th overall = C/W Akim Aliu
Headcase got kicked off our AH L team twice and Bowman moved him as part of Byfuglien. Has shown no on ice improvement and is still a headcase (Last year in ECHL he went after a ref)

3rd round - 69th overall = C Maxine Tanguay
No longer with Hawks organization. Not offered contract. Dont know if he caught on with any other NHL organizations

3rd roudn - 86th overall = G Josh Unice
Not offered contract with Hawks and after a training camp invite to Thrashers last year I haven't heard anything about him

5th round - 126th overall = D Joe Lavin
Playing in Notre Dame ,,, Has chance to be with Hawks in coming years but is a depth dman at best

6th round - 156th overall = C Richard Greenop
Not offered contract , Signed with Leafs

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Old
10-09-2010, 10:01 PM
  #73
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Played a heck of a game tonight !

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10-09-2010, 10:03 PM
  #74
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Yeah, he drew 3 penalties, played a role in the goal, looked sharp, his passing really stood out I thought.

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10-09-2010, 10:09 PM
  #75
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Yeah, he drew 3 penalties, played a role in the goal, looked sharp, his passing really stood out I thought.
The drop pass that ultimately led to the goal was beautiful... and then he got robbed of a goal just before it popped back to Briere.

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