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(Part Two) #1: Flyers @ Penguins - Thursday, Oct. 7, 2010 -

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Old
10-08-2010, 03:40 PM
  #451
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Originally Posted by CptCannon View Post
Also, many times the post-shots are some random wristers from the blueline thru half a dozen of skaters. If they went towards the net, they'd hit the chest of the goalie. They just happened to go wide, hitting the post and everyone's like OH MY GOD WHAT A QUALITY CHANCE THAT WAS!
Yeah, but there are always the ones that ARE great quality chances that the guy barely misses on and the goalie was very cleanly and clearly beat on.

Those shots aren't good to see for a goalie, trust me. It doesn't go in, but you still know that you were beat.

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10-08-2010, 03:54 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
Yeah, but there are always the ones that ARE great quality chances that the guy barely misses on and the goalie was very cleanly and clearly beat on.

Those shots aren't good to see for a goalie, trust me. It doesn't go in, but you still know that you were beat.
you think any goalie cares that a shot hit the post? all that matters its that it didnt go in.
so if the Flyers lose 3-2 and hit the post 5 times do you feel better? I dont.

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10-08-2010, 03:58 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
Yeah, but there are always the ones that ARE great quality chances that the guy barely misses on and the goalie was very cleanly and clearly beat on.

Those shots aren't good to see for a goalie, trust me. It doesn't go in, but you still know that you were beat.
I'm gonna say that's something more particular to the individual in net than it is to simply being a goalie. I didn't think a second beyond the quick sigh of relief when a shot would get by me but hit the post.

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10-08-2010, 04:00 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
you think any goalie cares that a shot hit the post? all that matters its that it didnt go in.
so if the Flyers lose 3-2 and hit the post 5 times do you feel better? I dont.
Ugh, you're not reading what I'm writing.


I said hitting a post is not a consolation. You obviously aren't going to say "man, we should have won, we out-posted them."

I'm telling you, as a goalie, that YES, there are some shots where you know you got beat and are lucky it hit the post. You may jokingly say that you "made" the shooter miss the post, but the fact of the matter is that there are some scoring chances where you get beat - when you shouldn't have - and the shooter just didn't quite finish.

It's not like you go "OH NO I GOT SCORED ON!" But if shots are getting by you and close to going, it's not a good thing just because it went off the post. You want to make sure you're getting in the way of everything near your net. Making a save is always better than having the puck get by you and off the post, no question.

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10-08-2010, 04:02 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by Rick Blaine View Post
I'm gonna say that's something more particular to the individual in net than it is to simply being a goalie. I didn't think a second beyond the quick sigh of relief when a shot would get by me but hit the post.
Oh, for the most part, yes. I'm not saying every time a puck hits my post I panic and think I got schooled. But posts aren't totally meaningless, either. I mean, the Penguins rang one off the post where Bob wasn't even in the goal mouth; saying that posts are meaningless to a goalie is like saying he shouldn't be concerned about the fact that he was in horrible position when that happened. Because if Martin didn't choke, that WAS a goal.

That may be a little extreme, but it's one example.

Let's just say you drop too early, and you fail to cover the top half of the net. The shooter rings it off high glove, crossbar, but if it were on net at all you were not getting to that puck because you totally misread the shot and dropped too early. Obviously you're not going to dwell on it in the moment, but the fact that the guy hit the post does not excuse the fact that you had the incorrect save selection or positioning.

If you're at an elite level where you have the time to examine game tape and try to iron out issues, that might be something you look at.

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10-08-2010, 04:30 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
Yeah, but there are always the ones that ARE great quality chances that the guy barely misses on and the goalie was very cleanly and clearly beat on.

Those shots aren't good to see for a goalie, trust me. It doesn't go in, but you still know that you were beat.



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10-08-2010, 04:43 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
Oh sweet zombie jesus. That photo gallery also has an image of some ****ing idiot's tatoo of Talbot doing the "shhhh"

There is actually a couple of Photos of Timonen and Crosby engaging in combat. Unfortunately most of them don't make Kimmo look too good. Malkin's still ugly as sin though.
That is the exact reason I hate tattoos. People get stuff like that. How shortsighted is that? And the best part about that "shhh" incident is the fact that he did that after he got his ass kicked by Carcillo. It's like, commemorating his failure.

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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I know, this happened multiple times. Crosby brings in the puck over the line, does some moves, skates into a Flyer/Flyer takes the body and the entire crowd is immediately demanding a penalty.

Our fans certainly can be very biased, but to me, that just speaks to a total lack of understanding of how the game is played.
Exactly. I understand that evvery hardcore fan comes with some bias. I do myself. I think it would be nearly impossible for someone to prove otherwise. But if you are going to spend that much money on tickets to go be at the first game in the CEC, at least know the ****ing rules.

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I miss Bob Ross and his calming painting sessions..don't see him as much on PBS. If alive today I'm sure he would paint us a "happy" little picture of Bobrovsky....in yellow ochre of course...with his knife.
Easily his most used color. Seems like he said that about 20 times in each episode.

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10-08-2010, 04:44 PM
  #458
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Funny, but you're all missing the point.

If a goalie messes up, and the other team hits the post, he didn't not mess up just because they hit the post. That's all I'm saying.

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10-08-2010, 09:12 PM
  #459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
you think any goalie cares that a shot hit the post?
absolutely. I don't know a goalie that doesn't care. If it hit the post then I most likely should have gotten a piece of it first.

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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
all that matters its that it didnt go in.
all that matters to the skaters. When you're really locked in you're catching pucks that are going half a foot wide. When the other team rocks your post a couple times you feel like it's just a matter of time.

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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
so if the Flyers lose 3-2 and hit the post 5 times do you feel better? I dont.
I feel like it's relevant in discussion of how good the opposition goalie was. I always try to tell myself that they hit what I gave them, but I know I'm kidding myself a little bit.

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10-09-2010, 02:52 AM
  #460
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
Funny, but you're all missing the point.

If a goalie messes up, and the other team hits the post, he didn't not mess up just because they hit the post. That's all I'm saying.
I know that you're concerned. I just think that if it's correctable mistake then he will have to work on it with Reese during practice and over time he will learn to compensate. I know from a skater's POV if a puck hits the post and doesn't go in... it's a "missed shot." I also know that for a goalie, hearing the ding of the iron can feel like a knife at your back.

I didn't see it affect Bob too adversely. He was pretty solid all game and I still believe he is the best goalie we have. I think he stays with the big club at least until Leighton gets back and chokes or reaggravates the injury or both.

... but you know... that's just like... my opinion... man.

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10-09-2010, 09:07 AM
  #461
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Talking about posts, what would be more awesome than Bobs starting to tap the posts like Hexie did?

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10-09-2010, 10:04 AM
  #462
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The man scored 46-*ing-goals! You say this like putting Carter at center and moving Briere/Giroux to wing is like putting a 40-point grinder at center in their place.

1) Carter is a better goal scorer than either Briere or Giroux.

2) Carter is better defensively than either Briere or Giroux.

3) Carter is better at draws than either Briere or Giroux.

Not only that... Briere is 33 and suffered from non-trivial injuries in each of the last two years (last year being more of a nagging problem than the really bad problem the year before). Briere is firmly into the declining period of his career -- this is just a fact, not a matter of opinion.

Jeff Carter will turn 26 this season... he's in his prime years.

The next 4 years of Carter's career will almost certainly be significantly better than the next 4 years of Briere's.
You misunderstand me.

I don't want to trade Carter, but he doesn't belong on the wing. I don't think Briere or Giroux belong there either. The only other option left - because we can't have one of the four be the center for the FOURTH line, is to experiment with Richards on the wing and Carter at center for that first line.

That's all I want to see. Yes, I understand that Richards is a great center. The question is does he make a better winger than Carter, Briere, or Giroux? I think there's a possibility that that would be the case. And it certainly wouldn't hurt to have a first line with Carter and Richards on it in order to play shut-down D, regardless of where they line up.

And I'm unwilling to simply dismiss Briere's ability to help this team win a championship the way you are. Yeah, he's small, aging, and lackluster defensively, but his postseason record speaks for itself. At some point in time, what's on paper gives way to what you actually observe happen.

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10-09-2010, 10:24 AM
  #463
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It was Consol's prom night. She had a lovely date and a beautiful dress. It was to be the perfect evening. She was even planning on giving her virginity to the love of her life. Too bad Bob roofied her, banged her in the pooper, and left her passed out in a dingy bathroom stall near a pile of her own vomit and shame.
Even as a Pens fan, this made me laugh out loud! Excellent!

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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I know, this happened multiple times. Crosby brings in the puck over the line, does some moves, skates into a Flyer/Flyer takes the body and the entire crowd is immediately demanding a penalty.

Our fans certainly can be very biased, but to me, that just speaks to a total lack of understanding of how the game is played.
C'mon, do you really think Pens fans don't get the game. Silly.

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I like how he made a point of mentioning that they have SO many season ticketholders in Pittsburgh. Yeah... where were those throngs of "fans" in 2003?
Yawn. Never heard that before.


Anyway, Pens fan coming in [relative] peace. The Flyers really should be the team to beat in the East. With your depth and--especially--if this Bobarusskie fella pans out, the Pens will have to go through Philly on their quest for Cup Four. Great performance, looking forward to next time.

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10-09-2010, 10:50 AM
  #464
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You misunderstand me.

I don't want to trade Carter, but he doesn't belong on the wing. I don't think Briere or Giroux belong there either. The only other option left - because we can't have one of the four be the center for the FOURTH line, is to experiment with Richards on the wing and Carter at center for that first line.

That's all I want to see. Yes, I understand that Richards is a great center. The question is does he make a better winger than Carter, Briere, or Giroux? I think there's a possibility that that would be the case. And it certainly wouldn't hurt to have a first line with Carter and Richards on it in order to play shut-down D, regardless of where they line up.

And I'm unwilling to simply dismiss Briere's ability to help this team win a championship the way you are. Yeah, he's small, aging, and lackluster defensively, but his postseason record speaks for itself. At some point in time, what's on paper gives way to what you actually observe happen.
Yes, but this "Briere isn't effective on wing" stuff is complete myth (and I think the same would be true of Giroux if he was playing wing on a line not getting screwed by an incompetent Gagne with Richards forcing him the puck). Briere had the third most even strength goals of his career last year. The only times he's done better were when he had 20 when he was 24 y/o, and 23 on the high octane Sabres team.

Danny Briere is a good winger. Last year was his best regular season from a production standpoint as a Flyer, and that's with Scott Hartnell taking a collective dump on Carter and Briere's assist totals.

So, this they all have to be centers mantra... doesn't make sense. Right now we're playing our 2nd best center at wing (and best even strength scoring center at that).

Jeff Carter has 77 even strength goals the last three seasons... In Briere's three best seasons combined, he has 61.

And before we get into any "Briere creates more goals at center talk..."

18 even strength assists last year.
Skip injury plagued season.
18 even strength assists his first year with us.
42 even strength assists his final year in Buffalo.
16 the year before that (in 48 games and was having a monster year).

21 even strength assists.
18 even strength assists.

The bolded years are the first two years out of the lockout... and those two years were a different brand of hockey than we are seeing now, and Briere was a few years younger. We won't be getting that out of Briere barring a miraculous rebound year.

Outside of those two years... he's been quite consistent in what you can expect from him at even strength. Where Briere has really compiled points is on the PP, which is a different entity than playing center obviously.

So, as a wing last year, Briere produced exactly what he has produced throughout his career... and his defensive problems were significantly reduced by not having to play center.

Moving Carter so Briere/Giroux can play center doesn't really make much sense (and the offensive numbers don't even back it up with Briere).

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10-09-2010, 12:06 PM
  #465
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Originally Posted by Mondello View Post
Even as a Pens fan, this made me laugh out loud! Excellent!



C'mon, do you really think Pens fans don't get the game. Silly.



Yawn. Never heard that before.



Anyway, Pens fan coming in [relative] peace. The Flyers really should be the team to beat in the East. With your depth and--especially--if this Bobarusskie fella pans out, the Pens will have to go through Philly on their quest for Cup Four. Great performance, looking forward to next time.
It's not that all penguins fans don't know the game, but it is a big majority now. I feel bad for the real fans who have been there for year.

I go to school at WVU and every penguins fan thinks the NHL was created in 2005.

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10-09-2010, 12:32 PM
  #466
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Briere was a decent winger for Carter for much of the regular season. He was an elite center during the playoffs, and the line he centered was the most dominant line of the entire tournament. You can't simply dismiss that like it didn't happen or chalk it up to a hot streak. It may well prove to be a hot streak, or Hartnell/Briere/Leino might turn into the kind of line beat writers struggle to come up with nicknames for.

And this is just a personal opinion, but I think Giroux's game is much better suited at center than on the wing.

We need an elite winger, and if Richards can be an elite winger, than why not, if Carter, Briere, and Giroux can all be elite centers?

Can we at least give it a shot for a few games and see if it works or not?

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10-09-2010, 12:35 PM
  #467
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Boucher getting the start:

Flyers head coach Peter Laviolette just announced that Brian Boucher gets the start tonight.

http://twitter.com/NHLFlyers/status/26859348775#

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10-09-2010, 12:44 PM
  #468
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
Briere was a decent winger for Carter for much of the regular season. He was an elite center during the playoffs, and the line he centered was the most dominant line of the entire tournament. You can't simply dismiss that like it didn't happen or chalk it up to a hot streak. It may well prove to be a hot streak, or Hartnell/Briere/Leino might turn into the kind of line beat writers struggle to come up with nicknames for.

And this is just a personal opinion, but I think Giroux's game is much better suited at center than on the wing.

We need an elite winger, and if Richards can be an elite winger, than why not, if Carter, Briere, and Giroux can all be elite centers?

Can we at least give it a shot for a few games and see if it works or not?
Why moving Richards to the wing is an insanely bad idea:

QUALCOMP: 0.109
GAON/60: 2.34

When I say Richards was our best center, I mean demonstrably so. You move Richards to wing that represents a significant downgrade for the team overall. He played by far the hardest C shift on the Flyers last year (by a mile), and the only C with a lower GAON/60 was Betts (whose only value is defense).

Whether Briere/Giroux are better at center than they are at wing is completely irrelevant to what is best for the team. Now, if Carter gets comfortable at the wing, it all may be fine and work out... but as of now, this doesn't appear to be even remotely close to our optimum lineup.


Last edited by Jester: 10-09-2010 at 12:50 PM.
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10-09-2010, 04:06 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Why moving Richards to the wing is an insanely bad idea:

QUALCOMP: 0.109
GAON/60: 2.34

When I say Richards was our best center, I mean demonstrably so. You move Richards to wing that represents a significant downgrade for the team overall. He played by far the hardest C shift on the Flyers last year (by a mile), and the only C with a lower GAON/60 was Betts (whose only value is defense).

Whether Briere/Giroux are better at center than they are at wing is completely irrelevant to what is best for the team. Now, if Carter gets comfortable at the wing, it all may be fine and work out... but as of now, this doesn't appear to be even remotely close to our optimum lineup.
All you have is a hypothesis based on somewhat obscure Sabremetrics. Why don't we actually do a real life experiment for a few games and see what the actual results are? Or are you afraid it actually might work?

We have a whole season here to figure it out, why reject an option out of hand without giving it a shot?

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10-09-2010, 04:18 PM
  #470
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
All you have is a hypothesis based on somewhat obscure Sabremetrics. Why don't we actually do a real life experiment for a few games and see what the actual results are? Or are you afraid it actually might work?

We have a whole season here to figure it out, why reject an option out of hand without giving it a shot?
Would you play Toews on the wing?

It's virtually the same thing.

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10-09-2010, 05:30 PM
  #471
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
All you have is a hypothesis based on somewhat obscure Sabremetrics. Why don't we actually do a real life experiment for a few games and see what the actual results are? Or are you afraid it actually might work?

We have a whole season here to figure it out, why reject an option out of hand without giving it a shot?
I know Mike Richards is by far and away the best center iceman on this team.

I know we are a significantly weaker team defensively down the middle without Richards playing center (we're significantly weaker defensively without Carter playing center, but that's another matter).

I also know that one or two points in the standings can have a significant effect on playoff seeding... so, no, I'm not really interested in the idea of *ing around with something that is an obviously bad idea, IMO.

And I'll give you QUALCOMP as being somewhat dubious/obscure, but GAON/60 is a straightforward empirical stat... that Richards performs quite well in with regularity, and did so last year playing extremely hard minutes for us (last year was his best year as a Flyer, IMO).

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10-09-2010, 05:39 PM
  #472
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[QUOTE=FlyHigh;28199458]Would you play Toews on the wing?

It's virtually the same thing.[/QUOTE

I would if Toews being on the wing possibly made Chicago a better team. Why not try it out? They have much different personnel than us though.

But, why not just give it a shot. We know Briere,Giroux, and Carter are all better at center.

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10-09-2010, 05:42 PM
  #473
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Originally Posted by duffy9748 View Post
But, why not just give it a shot. We know Briere,Giroux, and Carter are all better at center.
I'm sorry, but you don't move your best center (Richards) to the wing. You also don't move your 2nd best center (Carter) to the wing, and we're finding that out now (actually we've found that out before).

The best thing for this team is for one of Briere or Giroux to move to the wing. The sooner they accept that, the better off the Flyers will be.

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10-09-2010, 05:43 PM
  #474
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Originally Posted by duffy9748 View Post
I would if Toews being on the wing possibly made Chicago a better team. Why not try it out? They have much different personnel than us though.

But, why not just give it a shot. We know Briere,Giroux, and Carter are all better at center.
Richards is significantly better than each of them. The only one that is even close all-around is Carter, and I wager he'd crack a bit if he had to play the difficulty of shift Richards has for this team at center.

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10-09-2010, 06:14 PM
  #475
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[QUOTE=mja;28199227]All you have is a hypothesis based on somewhat obscure Sabremetrics./QUOTE]

The metrics used to determine if a plane will fly safely are probably pretty damn obscure to you, but let's just trust them all the same...

You had two choices.

1. You could have researched where the metric in question came from, thereby understanding it.
2. You could have declared that any concept that you do not understand must be false.

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