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TRADE[FLA/VAN] Andrew Peters for Darcy Hordichuk

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10-09-2010, 12:48 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by Balls Mahoney View Post
Man, I approve of Orcatown dropping science in this thread.
He dropped science all right - I'm just not sure why so many people are willing to overlook science in favour of fairy tales but that diversity is what makes life interesting.

That list orcatown made is going to be torn down pretty quickly - if it's not, I'll do it myself. Staubitz? McCormick? Barch? And Rick Rypien isn't on the list? I know we like making our point in debate but we need to keep some semblence of truth as well.

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10-09-2010, 12:50 PM
  #227
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And yet last night, after Pavel "Lady Byng" Datsyuk took on the much bigger, tougher and more experienced Corey Perry, the entire Red Wings bench was standing cheering for Datsyuk, Detroit players were waiting to tap Datsyuk, etc.
Probably moreso because Perry is a punk. Really brave guy going after a multiple Byng winner.

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10-09-2010, 01:00 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Probably moreso because Perry is a punk. Really brave guy going after a multiple Byng winner.
Perry has been going after Datsyuk for years, its a notorious rivalry, characterized by the infamous "mic'd up", where Perry was caught warning Datsyuk that:

"Tell Samuelsson I'm going to get him...Pavel make sure you tell him, Pavel Im going to get you too"


It honestly looked to me that Datsyuk had had enough of Perry and took him on. It looked like Perry was surprised Datsyuk was willing to go. The Red Wings have been rolling with a much tougher team the past couple seasons, and its clear the message is being heard from their premiere, Lady Byng winning forward to their lowliest 13th forward.

Will our premiere forwards hear the clear message AV and Gillis are sending? We'll see. Team toughness starts from your leadership group.

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10-09-2010, 01:11 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
Perry has been going after Datsyuk for years, its a notorious rivalry, characterized by the infamous "mic'd up", where Perry was caught warning Datsyuk that:

"Tell Samuelsson I'm going to get him...Pavel make sure you tell him, Pavel Im going to get you too"


It honestly looked to me that Datsyuk had had enough of Perry and took him on. It looked like Perry was surprised Datsyuk was willing to go. The Red Wings have been rolling with a much tougher team the past couple seasons, and its clear the message is being heard from their premiere, Lady Byng winning forward to their lowliest 13th forward.

Will our premiere forwards hear the clear message AV and Gillis are sending? We'll see. Team toughness starts from your leadership group.
When was the last time Zetterberg or Lidstrom dropped the gloves? Don't let Datsyuk's frustration with Perry fool you - Detroit's 3 premiere players will not fight again this season. Will it hurt their chances of winning the cup? I'll let you be the judge.

The Canucks core group is tougher than Detroit's. Pavel Datsyuk getting in the first fight of his life does not change that in any way, shape or form.

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10-09-2010, 01:12 PM
  #230
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It wasn't much of a fight, but didn't Henrik drop the gloves with Perry last preseason?

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10-09-2010, 01:19 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
When was the last time Zetterberg or Lidstrom dropped the gloves? Don't let Datsyuk's frustration with Perry fool you - Detroit's 3 premiere players will not fight again this season. Will it hurt their chances of winning the cup? I'll let you be the judge.
You must have reading comprehension problems when it comes to my posts.

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10-09-2010, 01:23 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post

It honestly looked to me that Datsyuk had had enough of Perry and took him on. It looked like Perry was surprised Datsyuk was willing to go. The Red Wings have been rolling with a much tougher team the past couple seasons, and its clear the message is being heard from their premiere, Lady Byng winning forward to their lowliest 13th forward.
Now I'm completely lost. Detroit has the softest bottom 6 in hockey. They went out and signed powderpuff Mike Modano to play on their 3rd line with bruiser Jiri Hudler. They went with Darren Helm, Patrick Eaves and Drew Miller on their 4th line - who's the toughest player in that group? Nobody.

Todd bertuzzi is the Wings toughest player right now. They have put the biggest emphasis on speed and skill in their entire history.

Who are you refering to when you say they're "rolling with a much tougher team"?

How would you feel about a 3rd line built around Hudler and Modano? How about if it was backed up by a 4th line with zero toughness to speak of?

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10-09-2010, 01:26 PM
  #233
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First step in Detroit getting tougher: waiving Maltby

Uh, okay...

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10-09-2010, 01:28 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
You must have reading comprehension problems when it comes to my posts.
You have a logic problem when it comes to your posts.

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10-09-2010, 01:30 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Now I'm completely lost. Detroit has the softest bottom 6 in hockey. They went out and signed powderpuff Mike Modano to play on their 3rd line with bruiser Jiri Hudler. They went with Darren Helm, Patrick Eaves and Drew Miller on their 4th line - who's the toughest player in that group? Nobody.

Todd bertuzzi is the Wings toughest player right now. They have put the biggest emphasis on speed and skill in their entire history.

Who are you refering to when you say they're "rolling with a much tougher team"?

How would you feel about a 3rd line built around Hudler and Modano? How about if it was backed up by a 4th line with zero toughness to speak of?
Darren Helm, ,Justin Abdelkader Patrick Eaves, Dan Cleary, Todd Bertuzzi, Kris Draper are all players that would be amongst the Canucks hits leaders.

I think I've discovered your problem. Your view, or working definition of toughness is so terribly antiquated, it hampers your ability to absorb my post.

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First step in Detroit getting tougher: waiving Maltby

Uh, okay...
*cough*38yearsold*cough*

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10-09-2010, 01:38 PM
  #236
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Personally, I think the Red Wings have always had a tough team. The guys you named have replaced the tougher players in their lineup that have left over the years - Shahahan, Maltby, McCarty, Chelios, Fischer, Lapointe, Verbeek...plus they've had Holmstrom and Kronwall as regulars in their lineup for a real long time now.

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10-09-2010, 01:39 PM
  #237
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The guys you wanna deter from playing like cheap *******s are guys like cooke, ruutu, steve ott, sean avery. They dont fight heavyweights, nor anyone for that matter. They turtle. You counteract them through physical checking and being hard int he corners, not by having a 240 lb punching bag, pathetically tryign to catch up with them, to convince them to fight and take a 2 min unsportsmanlike when they politely decline.

We've had boogard in our division forever and I was sad to see him go because he is so terrible and intimidates nobody. Hordichuk did nothing to make opponents shy away. Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Arguing with goon advocates is reminiscent of arguing religion with a fundamentalist. Despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, their own logic supports their own logic and is an unbreakable circle that supports itself and evidence to the contrary is simply evidence that somehow is just 'wrong'

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10-09-2010, 01:41 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit View Post
Personally, I think the Red Wings have always had a tough team. The guys you named have replaced the tougher players in their lineup that have left over the years - Shahahan, Maltby, McCarty, Chelios, Fischer, Lapointe, Verbeek...plus they've had Holmstrom and Kronwall as regulars in their lineup for a real long time now.
If one (1) Canuck top 6 forward over the past two playoffs had the balls Holmstrom had in front of the net in the playoffs, we'd still be celebrating a cup run.

But wait! He doesn't fight! He plays for Detroit!1! ITS 1994! he'S not tough!

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10-09-2010, 01:45 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
If one (1) Canuck top 6 forward over the past two playoffs had the balls Holmstrom had in front of the net in the playoffs, we'd still be celebrating a cup run.

But wait! He doesn't fight! He plays for Detroit!1! ITS 1994! he'S not tough!
I agree. I just don't think the current Red Wings team is any tougher than Red Wings teams in the past, which is what you've said. The Red Wings have always had 4 lines of toughness.

Edit - I also think the Canucks can approach that this year, with a healthy Burrows adding to Kesler, Samuelsson, Torres, Malhotra, Bolduc, and Glass.

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10-09-2010, 01:47 PM
  #240
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You guys are going to bicker back and forth about this all year again?

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10-09-2010, 01:54 PM
  #241
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10-09-2010, 01:58 PM
  #242
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Even though he's not on any of the goon lists, I think the most intimidating player in the league is Zdeno Chara. He would tune up most of the heavyweight fighters in the league, plus he's an all-star talent. I'd rather have a guy like that in the lineup because he probably is going to be on the ice when something goes down and can jump someone immediately after a cheap shot occurs.

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10-09-2010, 02:04 PM
  #243
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This is naive nonsense.

You think that it defies common sense to say other teams take advantage of you if you have no deterrence. Hordichuk has says he intends to go after the Sedins and may well end up fighting Glass.
If he plays like the same cream puff he was here last season, the twins have nothing to worry about.

Incidentally, if we're talking about deterrence, I'd think it would be scarier to face a team with a psychopath like Darcy Tucker who would gouge your eye out with his thumb or target your knees with a dirty hit.

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10-09-2010, 02:05 PM
  #244
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Even though he's not on any of the goon lists, I think the most intimidating player in the league is Zdeno Chara. He would tune up most of the heavyweight fighters in the league, plus he's an all-star talent. I'd rather have a guy like that in the lineup because he probably is going to be on the ice when something goes down and can jump someone immediately after a cheap shot occurs.
I think the 29 other teams in the league would want a player like that.

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10-09-2010, 02:10 PM
  #245
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I think the 29 other teams in the league would want a player like that.
No doubt, but while he's the best, he's not the only one. Jovo filled that role pretty well when he was here, he doesn't fight as much at this point his career but he used to be able to throw them pretty well. He was an intense fighter too, he seemed to go into a rage and just throw punches as hard and fast he could.

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10-09-2010, 02:27 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post

And yet last night, after Pavel "Lady Byng" Datsyuk took on the much bigger, tougher and more experienced Corey Perry, the entire Red Wings bench was standing cheering for Datsyuk, Detroit players were waiting to tap Datsyuk, etc.
is that the same Corey Perry that Hank dropped the gloves with a couple of seasons ago? looks like Datsyuk is trying to model his game after the reigning Hart trophy winner.


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I still don't understand this notion that fighting fires up a team more than 50% of the time. Why does it help the team you cheer for more than the team someone else cheers for? There are 2 guys in every fight... If Hordichuk and Parros square off 10 times why are we getting more of a boost than Anaheim? It's an honest question.
this entire argument is silly and blindly ideological on both sides.

when does a fight fire up a team? when they are playing flat for starters. over 82 games there are plenty of times a team comes out flat. sometimes a good scrap can get the blood flowing. so when one team comes out guns a'blazing and hitting everything in sight, and the other team is flat, a scrap can benefit the flat team more than the high energy team.

that's just one example that should be so obvious it's not needed to be said.

people have been saying the pure goon was a dying breed since they reduced the game-day roster from 21 players to 20. yet they're still around. go figure.

personally, I hate the idea of a no-skill player taking up a roster spot. but fact is, sometimes you need someone that can answer the bell and not have their face bashed in. and for all the talk of someone like Boogaard having no skill--which is true as far as putting points on the board--he'll still have shifts where he runs amuck and throws a couple of big hits and gives a face wash in the scrum after the whistle and laughs about it on the way back to the bench because no one could rise to the challenge.

I don't want 240lb+ guys giving Edler or Ehrhoff face-washes after the whistle, and I don't want Rypien, Glass or Bolduc risking injury answering the bell against those guys. a guy like Hordichuk was useless in this regard because he too often "played it cool."

sure Detroit has had success without a true heavyweight, but there's only one Detroit. Cuba survived with a state-run economy, that doesn't mean every state should do likewise. And likewise, pointing to a bunch of teams with non-playoff rosters having a pure goon in their top 23 means nothing.

I like the idea of having a BIG guy that can handle the bare knuckles. but he has to be able to at least get in and throw some hits, and add some intimidation between whistles, to make it worth while. if he's just a medium sized guy (Hordichuk) or a guy that can't play the game well enough to finish a check, forget it.

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10-09-2010, 04:18 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
I think I've discovered your problem. Your view, or working definition of toughness is so terribly antiquated, it hampers your ability to absorb my post.
You're right - my definition of toughness has no place for players like Hudler and Modano. You would be screaming bloody murder if we had a 3rd line built around those 2 and you and I both know it. Imagine if the toughest player on our 4th line was Jannik Hansen? We wouldn't hear the end of it.

In no way, shape or form is Detroit icing a tough team this season - under anyone's defintion of 'tough'.

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10-09-2010, 04:41 PM
  #248
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when does a fight fire up a team? when they are playing flat for starters. over 82 games there are plenty of times a team comes out flat. sometimes a good scrap can get the blood flowing. so when one team comes out guns a'blazing and hitting everything in sight, and the other team is flat, a scrap can benefit the flat team more than the high energy team.

that's just one example that should be so obvious it's not needed to be said.
Even if we buy into this way of thinking we're still back to 50%. When we're instigating fights on nights when the team doesn't show up we get a boost and when the other team is looking for a lift and one of the Canucks drops the gloves we lose momentum. The only way we get better than a 50/50 advantage is if the Canucks are more prone to poor starts than their opponents. In your opinion is this the case? If not, we're back to square one. Considering the Canucks start with a lead more often than not wouldn't more fights hurt the team more often than help it under your logic? Yes, yes it would.

I'm curious why the team I happen to cheer for just so happens to be on the positive end of this exchange? Am I just lucky? If I was a Flames fan does my team also get the same benefits more than half the time?

It simply doesn't add up.

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10-09-2010, 04:50 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
It simply doesn't add up.
Plus if that was actually the case, why would a coach ever put his goon out if the other team came out flat? Why give the other team an opportunity to improve their position in the game if there is actually some tangible benefit?

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10-09-2010, 04:56 PM
  #250
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I think LMG has a decent point about Daniel and Henrik not taking slashing penalties when they get frustrated.

But fighting isn't the answer - too risky. A good crosscheck to the teeth would do the trick. Make it count.

Like the league is going to suspend one of the "Sedin sisters".

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