HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Notices

Flyers Want Full Player Disclosure with Injuries

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-09-2010, 06:21 PM
  #26
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,997
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
I took that to mean that teams will be diligent about the top five, and after that "it is what it is."
This is what I got out of it. I hardly believe that Leighton is a "top 5 player."

CS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:25 PM
  #27
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWO View Post
Why does he have to disclose it if they are not asking anything about it? Forget about ethics and being honest for a second. Unless the contract ha sa clause that says it could be voided if a pre existing condition exist, i dont say a word if i am leighton.
Lets put aside everything else... because I completely understand why it might make sense for Leighton to withhold an injury when he had zero job security.

The reason it was dumb on Leighton's part is that they may have discovered this before he spent all summer training with a bum back, and nipped the thing in the bud in June/early July and he would have been fully back by training camp (theoretically).

Now he's having surgery and rehabbing in season while a 22 y/o rookie is potentially taking his job.

Oops.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:26 PM
  #28
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,997
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Lets put aside everything else... because I completely understand why it might make sense for Leighton to withhold an injury when he had zero job security.

The reason it was dumb on Leighton's part is that they may have discovered this before he spent all summer training with a bum back, and nipped the thing in the bud in June/early July and he would have been fully back by training camp (theoretically).

Now he's having surgery and rehabbing in season while a 22 y/o rookie is potentially taking his job.

Oops.
Totally back-fired on Leighton. It's not the Flyers organization who is going to lose on this one.

CS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:27 PM
  #29
FlyHigh
Registered User
 
FlyHigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 28,156
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to FlyHigh Send a message via MSN to FlyHigh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Lets put aside everything else... because I completely understand why it might make sense for Leighton to withhold an injury when he had zero job security.

The reason it was dumb on Leighton's part is that they may have discovered this before he spent all summer training with a bum back, and nipped the thing in the bud in June/early July and he would have been fully back by training camp (theoretically).

Now he's having surgery and rehabbing in season while a 22 y/o rookie is potentially taking his job.

Oops.
What does he care? He still gets paid.

If Leighton has an iota of self-awareness, he knows he'll never get a deal like this again.

FlyHigh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:27 PM
  #30
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
As in the construction metaphor I gave earlier, I doubt the contract says that you're supposed to use termite free wood, but that should be implied.

You expect that house to be at least a feasible house, just like you expect Leighton to be a goalie when you sign him, not a goalie with a ****ed up back.

If he ****s up his back after that, then that's a completely different story.
Well, but that metaphor doesn't really work... because there are laws that protect consumers (because consumers have been getting the shaft for millennia and those laws have proven necessary).

If the CBA doesn't say anything about a player with an injury when he signs a contract (Hossa and the Hawks last year was fishy with the shoulder), then the team may not have recourse. Buyer beware.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:29 PM
  #31
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
What does he care? He still gets paid.

If Leighton has an iota of self-awareness, he knows he'll never get a deal like this again.
You really think he doesn't care about that?

The money is certainly an important factor... but these are competitive guys playing a game. There's no way he doesn't want to be playing... and by hiding an injury that could have been resolved months ago, he's potentially screwed himself.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:29 PM
  #32
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,997
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, but that metaphor doesn't really work... because there are laws that protect consumers (because consumers have been getting the shaft for millennia and those laws have proven necessary).

If the CBA doesn't say anything about a player with an injury when he signs a contract (Hossa and the Hawks last year was fishy with the shoulder), then the team may not have recourse. Buyer beware.
That is a good point.

CS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:30 PM
  #33
FlyHigh
Registered User
 
FlyHigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 28,156
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to FlyHigh Send a message via MSN to FlyHigh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Totally back-fired on Leighton. It's not the Flyers organization who is going to lose on this one.
Err, tell us that again in April after a year of this goaltending.

FlyHigh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:30 PM
  #34
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by i am dave View Post
True, but I'd make the (completely unsubstantiated) assumption that disclosure of injury is a fundamental of any sports league's CBA.
It should be... but you want to put faith in the NHL not screwing that up in the CBA?

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:32 PM
  #35
CanadianFlyer88
Moderator
Knublin' PPs
 
CanadianFlyer88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Van City
Posts: 14,005
vCash: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You really think he doesn't care about that?

The money is certainly an important factor... but these are competitive guys playing a game. There's no way he doesn't want to be playing... and by hiding an injury that could have been resolved months ago, he's potentially screwed himself.
That's assuming he was aware of how serious his lingering back pain was. I doubt he knew that, given how quickly he was signed after the playoffs were over.

CanadianFlyer88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:32 PM
  #36
FlyHigh
Registered User
 
FlyHigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 28,156
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to FlyHigh Send a message via MSN to FlyHigh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You really think he doesn't care about that?

The money is certainly an important factor... but these are competitive guys playing a game. There's no way he doesn't want to be playing... and by hiding an injury that could have been resolved months ago, he's potentially screwed himself.
I think he cares about it to a point, but I mean, I'm sure the guy knows he's an AHL goalie and that he probably wouldn't stick for the whole season with the Flyers.

FlyHigh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:36 PM
  #37
i am dave
Registered User
 
i am dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Corner of 1st & 1st
Country: United States
Posts: 2,182
vCash: 500
I downloaded the CBA and did some snooping. I'm not a lawyer, but some of my clients are, and I'm always dealing in contracts, so I've a tiny bit of legalese.

From Exhibit 1 (Standard Player Contract), Clause 5:

Quote:
(a) Should the Player be disabled or unable to perform his duties under this SPC he shall submit himself for medical examination and treatment by a physician selected by the Club, and such examination and treatment, when made at the request of the Club, shall be at its expense unless made necessary by some act or conduct of the Player contrary to the terms and provisions of this SPC or the rules established under Paragaph 4. At any time a physician selected by a Club makes a determination as to whether or not a Player is disabled and unable to perform his duties as a hockey Player for purposes of this Paragraph 5 of the SPC, such physician shall evidence such determination by completing the form attached hereto as Exhibit 25(A), which shall be provided to the Player at the time of the examination and immediately provided to the Club as well.
I take just from the first sentence that Leighton is to present himself to the club for examination upon injury.

And this one (also Clause 5) - emphasis mine. Note, this is relevant if the injury took place after the Finals, I'd suppose. There seems to still be confusion as to when the injury occurred:

Quote:
(n) In connection with a disability which is not caused by an injury sustained during the course of his employment as a hockey Player including travel with his team or on business requested by his Club, the procedures set forth in this Paragraph 5 shall also apply to the Club doctor's determination regarding the Player's physical fitness to return to play. If the Player is declared to be fit for play, by the Club doctor and Player doctor, or by the independent doctor, he must perform his duties hereunder and shall be entitled to receive the full benefits of this Agreement. If he is declared to be not physically able to play, he shall not be entitled to the benefits of this Agreement until he has been declared to be physically fit to play by the independent medical specialist.
Uh ohhhhhhhhhhhh.

i am dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:36 PM
  #38
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
That's assuming he was aware of how serious his lingering back pain was. I doubt he knew that, given how quickly he was signed after the playoffs were over.
From the sounds of things, his back was bothering him this summer and assumed he just had a back strain (he may have come in to get it looked at in Philly?). This, of course, also stemming to his back bothering him in the playoffs.

Now, color me stupid, but if I'm a professional hockey goalie and I have lingering back pain I'm getting that **** checked out by a specialist, because back problems can be killer to a goalie.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:41 PM
  #39
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by i am dave View Post
I downloaded the CBA and did some snooping. I'm not a lawyer, but some of my clients are, and I'm always dealing in contracts, so I've a tiny bit of legalese.

From Exhibit 1 (Standard Player Contract), Clause 5:



I take just from the first sentence that Leighton is to present himself to the club for examination upon injury.

And this one (also Clause 5) - emphasis mine:



Uh ohhhhhhhhhhhh.
Well, fishy in this case. It isn't like he injured himself bull riding, or doing motorcycle tricks in a parking lot.

We have an injury sustained playing hockey and supposedly aggravated while training to play hockey (no real problem here). By all accounts the Flyers were aware of the issue over the summer and I think I recall reading that they had someone check it out at some point, but just thought it was a back strain (of course, by all accounts the Flyers were not aware that this was back pain that had been around since the playoffs).

So, what we need is clear wording on him not mentioning that he had some nagging pain that may or may not be something that needs to be dealt with...

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:42 PM
  #40
KimiFerrari
Messi Is God
 
KimiFerrari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Montreal, Qc
Country: Argentina
Posts: 3,818
vCash: 500
This just makes Leighton look very bad. If this continues to play out, then I just don't see him sticking around for long with the club.

KimiFerrari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:43 PM
  #41
FlyHigh
Registered User
 
FlyHigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 28,156
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to FlyHigh Send a message via MSN to FlyHigh
Quote:
Originally Posted by i am dave View Post

And this one (also Clause 5) - emphasis mine. Note, this is relevant if the injury took place after the Finals, I'd suppose. There seems to still be confusion as to when the injury occurred:

Uh ohhhhhhhhhhhh.
That doesn't make sense, how else is Leighton supposed to have injured himself? I mean, he's had the back stuff for quite a while I believe and it's hockey-related, so the clause doesn't apply.

FlyHigh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:44 PM
  #42
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,997
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
This just makes Leighton look very bad. If this continues to play out, then I just don't see him sticking around for long with the club.
If this plays out the way it looks to be, this could be the last stop on Leighton's journey called a professional hockey career.

CS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:48 PM
  #43
i am dave
Registered User
 
i am dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Corner of 1st & 1st
Country: United States
Posts: 2,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
That doesn't make sense, how else is Leighton supposed to have injured himself? I mean, he's had the back stuff for quite a while I believe and it's hockey-related, so the clause doesn't apply.
From reading through the clauses, it seems like there's a lot of detail on what activities are sanctioned and what are not. I should have clarified that, and also clarified that I threw that last clause in there as an "oh by the way..." you know, just in case the real story is that he hurt himself lifting groceries.

Edit: Or if after his season ending physical, he mentioned the back pain to the doctor, and the doctor says "Ok, don't lift weights for a few weeks," and then he goes and lifts weights against doctor's orders.

i am dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:51 PM
  #44
FlyHigh
Registered User
 
FlyHigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 28,156
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to FlyHigh Send a message via MSN to FlyHigh
Quote:
Originally Posted by i am dave View Post
From reading through the clauses, it seems like there's a lot of detail on what activities are sanctioned and what are not. I should have clarified that, and also clarified that I threw that last clause in there as an "oh by the way..." you know, just in case the real story is that he hurt himself lifting groceries.
Yeah, but I strongly doubt that we could void his contract based on him lifting groceries or falling down the stairs and hurting himself.

FlyHigh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:56 PM
  #45
GoneFullHextall
adios Holmgren
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 30,925
vCash: 50
Holmgren isnt going to do anything about this at all. "it is what it is"
isnt that what he said?

GoneFullHextall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:58 PM
  #46
i am dave
Registered User
 
i am dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Corner of 1st & 1st
Country: United States
Posts: 2,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Yeah, but I strongly doubt that we could void his contract based on him lifting groceries or falling down the stairs and hurting himself.
I think you can, if the player doesn't disclose the injury. That's what I personally interpret from clause 5.a. (If there's no NHL precedent, it wouldn't be a giant stretch to cite the Yankees voiding Aaron Boone's contract.) And the argument could be bolstered not only by the player's intention to play through injury, but also by the player's intention to obtain a contract offer by specifically not disclosing the injury.

i am dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 06:58 PM
  #47
CanadianFlyer88
Moderator
Knublin' PPs
 
CanadianFlyer88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Van City
Posts: 14,005
vCash: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
If this implies that Homer thought that Leighton was a top-5 player, can he just kill himself, please?
I understood that quote as: there's no way in hell Michael Leighton's contract was even under consideration of being insured.

CanadianFlyer88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 07:00 PM
  #48
FlyHigh
Registered User
 
FlyHigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 28,156
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to FlyHigh Send a message via MSN to FlyHigh
Quote:
Originally Posted by i am dave View Post
I think you can, if the player doesn't disclose the injury. That's what I personally interpret from clause 5.a. (If there's no NHL precedent, it wouldn't be a giant stretch to cite the Yankees voiding Aaron Boone's contract.) And the argument could be bolstered not only by the player's intention to play through injury, but also by the player's intention to obtain a contract offer by specifically not disclosing the injury.
Hmm, but Homer said the injury occurred in July which is after he signed the deal.

Also, Leighton disclosed the problem to the Flyers in July according to Homer and they told him to work on his strength/conditioning, then he came back to camp and got hurt, so I'm not sure how he was hiding it?

Of course, now I'm forced into the position of defending Leighton. Not good.

FlyHigh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 07:06 PM
  #49
i am dave
Registered User
 
i am dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Corner of 1st & 1st
Country: United States
Posts: 2,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Hmm, but Homer said the injury occurred in July which is after he signed the deal.

Also, Leighton disclosed the problem to the Flyers in July according to Homer and they told him to work on his strength/conditioning, then he came back to camp and got hurt, so I'm not sure how he was hiding it?

Of course, now I'm forced into the position of defending Leighton. Not good.
Haha. Ultimately I would wager nothing comes from this. But I think if the Flyers would choose to pursue, they could probably make a decent case - but it would be a long and messy process.

i am dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2010, 07:13 PM
  #50
CTU2fan
Registered User
 
CTU2fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,135
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
From the sounds of things, his back was bothering him this summer and assumed he just had a back strain (he may have come in to get it looked at in Philly?). This, of course, also stemming to his back bothering him in the playoffs.

Now, color me stupid, but if I'm a professional hockey goalie and I have lingering back pain I'm getting that **** checked out by a specialist, because back problems can be killer to a goalie.
That's a good point. And as early as he signed it would have been simple for him to get it taken care of even after he signed. I'm guessing he didn't think it was as serious as it apparently is.

CTU2fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:34 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.