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Part XII: Phx Coyotes - Still haven't found what I'm looking for

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Old
10-11-2010, 05:12 PM
  #976
Killion
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Originally Posted by armpit View Post

Killion,
They really deserve ANOTHER 3-5 years to turn this around?
I believe they do. I hope a reprieve is in the offing & I believe resurrection is a possibility in the right hands.

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10-11-2010, 05:20 PM
  #977
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I remain unconvinced of the overriding value of Coyotes patrons in the 40 event nights to local (Westgate) businesses.
Yes, but consider the CFD is not exclusive to 40 days & nights of hockey. Its 365 days of the year. Millions of people pour through Westgate annually.

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10-11-2010, 05:26 PM
  #978
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Yes, but consider the CFD is not exclusive to 40 days & nights of hockey. Its 365 days of the year. Millions of people pour through Westgate annually.
But it probably would be less if parking fees are increased, no?

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10-11-2010, 05:32 PM
  #979
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Yes, but consider the CFD is not exclusive to 40 days & nights of hockey. Its 365 days of the year. Millions of people pour through Westgate annually.
Well then it's no biggie if the team leaves. So half the forty nights could be filled anyway, add the millions that pour through annually. The twenty vacant nights per year may only total 200,000 bar and restaurants patrons. Meh no biggie...

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10-11-2010, 05:44 PM
  #980
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Originally Posted by OthmarAmmann View Post
But it probably would be less if parking fees are increased, no?
Their arent any parking fee's now, and there'd only be charges on game & event nights. If fans/concert goers wont attend because of parking fee's, then ya, best be having another looksee. I doubt very much if STH's & the well heeled will have a problem paying 10-20 bucks to park conveniently. Otherwise, you can park a 1/2 a mile away or more away & take your chances with the Scorpions & Diamondbacks walking through the desert. At night. In the dark. Additionally, I'd be charging monthlys' or seasonals to the students from DeVry. Call me Evil.


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10-11-2010, 05:54 PM
  #981
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Yes, but consider the CFD is not exclusive to 40 days & nights of hockey. Its 365 days of the year. Millions of people pour through Westgate annually.
Right, but the value proposition for a business participating and contributing to the CFD that subsidizes the Coyotes is not based on all the non-Coyotes patrons, but rather on retaining the Coyotes and their patrons. To put a finer point on it, if businesses are being asked to contribute $5 million per year to the CFD, but Coyotes fans only contribute $3 million in profit to the businesses each year, it doesn't look like a good value proposition. My earlier point is that this looks even worse if the Coyotes might leave in 4-5 years, in which case the long-term benefits for the short-term contributions are uncertain.


Last edited by Whileee: 10-11-2010 at 06:00 PM.
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10-11-2010, 06:05 PM
  #982
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Right, but the value proposition for contributing to the CFD that subsidizes the Coyotes is based on retaining the Coyotes and their patrons.
Sure enough. Gotta walk before you can run. Give it a shot. So long as the prospective owners' dont have (read IE/JR) unreasonable expectations and can cover the shorts'. (Dang Ye' Whileee, ya'll went n' had to qualify your earlier statement!). If their simply adding a surcharge to goods & services, even if for the first couple 3yrs the Yotes' are delivering less, eventually, they'll run Even-Steven & no longer be required and or run out of steam & fall off the tracks. Its' an experiment. Lets see what happens.


Last edited by Killion: 10-11-2010 at 06:11 PM.
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10-11-2010, 08:04 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by mouser View Post
CoG has approximately $300m in payments remaining on the arena. Don't forget interest on loans/bonds.
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
Yes they do. OK, if you want to be technical it's probably only ~$280M-290M.

The ~$300M number hasn't changed much since the last time you were shown the outstanding P&I on the arena bonds from the CoG budget book.

Now it's likely ~$280M - the ~$290M from the FY '09-'10 budget minus what they paid in P&I this past year.

C&P from Part X of this soap opera:

But that is not the amount owed. The amount owed is the current principal amount. If they pay it off now by selling the arena, they do not need 280 million.



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Originally Posted by peter sullivan View Post
I've been to two moose games in 15 years. Didn't pay for either. All of my friends who grew up with the jets are the same. They go only if their kid or nephew is playing during intermission. I'll be first in line for seasons next year for the jets though.

I actually don't know anyone who follows or goes to moose games and all of my friends are big sports fans. All played hockey their whole lives. To most people the moose are the equivalent of going to a movie. Nobody really cares about them. It's just a night out.
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While I understand where you are coming from, I wouldn't categorically state that nobody cares about the Moose. While going to their games is indeed a night out, I along other season ticket holders do follow the team (including road games on the radio), as do many of my friends. And I saw my first Jets game in 1967 when they were part of the junior WCHL. Certainly the AHL is not the NHL, but neither is the WHL. It's a treat to watch players develop from the WHL to become good pros - and that's waht the AHL is for. But I'll be honest with you. Another reason I bought my AHL ST is to be on the ground floor to by NHL ST if they return, and it's looking pretty good now.
The Moose draw about 9k people per game. Hardly what I would call "nobody caring"


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Originally Posted by armpit View Post
Killion,

They really deserve ANOTHER 3-5 years to turn this around?
That is the question that should be getting asked. They have never been financially successful so why toss another 60 mil into the hole..

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10-11-2010, 08:41 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
But that is not the amount owed. The amount owed is the current principal amount. If they pay it off now by selling the arena, they do not need 280 million.
Depends on the bond. There may be no way to pay off the bonds/debts "early" (and thus needing less than $280m).

(I don't have access/knowledge to know the specifics, but are there any bond traders who know or can make an educated guess on municipal bonds?)

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10-11-2010, 10:42 PM
  #985
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This is ultra, unmitigated BS of the first kind, with Scruggs firing the first salvos'...
To these eyes, it continues to look like nothing more than CoG and NHL jockeying for position for the post-relocation lawsuits. It's been like this for months now...

 
Old
10-11-2010, 11:17 PM
  #986
peter sullivan
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
But that is not the amount owed. The amount owed is the current principal amount. If they pay it off now by selling the arena, they do not need 280 million.

The Moose draw about 9k people per game. Hardly what I would call "nobody caring"
the $300m figure comes from the azcentral link posted 2 pages back.

i know someone must follow the moose, but i play on 2 hockey teams, essentially everyone i associate with is a hockey fan, i work in a large office.....i have never once in 15 years heard someone ask 'anyone hear the score in the moose game?'...or 'did you catch the moose game last night?'

nobody i know could name a single player on the moose and i would bet if took 1000 random people off the street, maybe 2 could name one player....fewer could name the cup they play for or who won that cup last year...or even another team in the league.

they are not on television, they get minimal newspaper coverage....the very fact that their playoff attendance drops compared to regular season proves that people dont really care how they are doing....

the day after a bomber game everyone is talking about it...not so with the moose.

my experience with the moose is that the crowd noise is 3 octaves higher than normal because it is 70% kids.

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10-11-2010, 11:22 PM
  #987
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
Depends on the bond. There may be no way to pay off the bonds/debts "early" (and thus needing less than $280m).

(I don't have access/knowledge to know the specifics, but are there any bond traders who know or can make an educated guess on municipal bonds?)
Either kdb or mouser broke down the various bond issues last summer. IIRC, only a small portion (if any) can be paid early without penalty. We can trust their estimates of $280M - $300M.

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10-11-2010, 11:25 PM
  #988
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
I believe they do. I hope a reprieve is in the offing & I believe resurrection is a possibility in the right hands.
resurrection is a return to a previous state of prosperity...

i fail to see the evidence that supports your optimism.

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10-11-2010, 11:47 PM
  #989
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Their arent any parking fee's now, and there'd only be charges on game & event nights. If fans/concert goers wont attend because of parking fee's, then ya, best be having another looksee. I doubt very much if STH's & the well heeled will have a problem paying 10-20 bucks to park conveniently. Otherwise, you can park a 1/2 a mile away or more away & take your chances with the Scorpions & Diamondbacks walking through the desert. At night. In the dark. Additionally, I'd be charging monthlys' or seasonals to the students from DeVry. Call me Evil.
the evidence suggets otherwise....they have had to reduce ticket prices to extremely low levels to attract fans....if they didnt have to they wouldnt have.....adding 50% to the cost of season ticket for parking has to have some affect on their ability to sell tickets...if it wouldnt why would they have dropped prices so much to attract fans...

35% of the tickets to coyotes games cost less than the $20 parking you suggest...and thats before all the promotions....im not really sure how that could not have an effect.

if tickets were $80 like in many cities adding 10-20% might not change anything....when parking is as much as a ticket it seems unreasonable to suggest that it would have no effect.

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10-11-2010, 11:57 PM
  #990
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post

To these eyes, it continues to look like nothing more than CoG and NHL jockeying for position for the post-relocation lawsuits. It's been like this for months now...
Possibly. I meant it more in terms of "here we go with the abrogation of responsibility". If Scruggs' doesnt know whats going on with daily updates from Beasley she's either incompetent or stupid, neither one acceptable. I'll cut her some slack, as Daly commented on Saturday that talks were going on for a few days between all 3 parties, her comments 3 days old by the time they were published. She couldve' answered in a 1000 different ways.

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Originally Posted by peter sullivan View Post
resurrection is a return to a previous state of prosperity...i fail to see the evidence that supports your optimism.
Thats but one interpretation of many peter. I was referring to the Judeo/Christian model. Frankly, I fail to see enough evidence to support such pessimism. The prospective owners plunked down $25M, the league is finally, finally getting involved with the negotiations. I'd say the odds are 50/50 that a deal gets done, the glass half full.

Stay thirsty my friend.

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10-12-2010, 12:08 AM
  #991
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the evidence suggets otherwise....they have had to reduce ticket prices to extremely low levels to attract fans....if they didnt have to they wouldnt have.....adding 50% to the cost of season ticket for parking has to have some affect on their ability to sell tickets...if it wouldnt why would they have dropped prices so much to attract fans...

35% of the tickets to coyotes games cost less than the $20 parking you suggest...and thats before all the promotions....im not really sure how that could not have an effect.

if tickets were $80 like in many cities adding 10-20% might not change anything....when parking is as much as a ticket it seems unreasonable to suggest that it would have no effect.
You'd have to implement a graduated parking fee structure over 3-5yrs in order to make it palatable, while simultaneously increasing ticket prices annually.. It would be foolish to try & ding the consumer for $15 to park when their holding a ticket with a face value of less. Their are all kinds of things that have to happen here, not least of which is ticket pricing. I would rather have an arena half full with people who are willing to pay comparable prices for NHL seating & parking & "tarp" the upper levels than continue to give away entertainment & product virtually for free. Create a buzz, demand (and prices) goes up.


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10-12-2010, 12:12 AM
  #992
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I was referring to the Judeo/Christian model.
Can't speak for the Xtians amongst us, but the "judeo model" of the resurrection is that it never happened.

That's what you were going for, right?


 
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10-12-2010, 12:31 AM
  #993
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Thats but one interpretation of many peter. I was referring to the Judeo/Christian model. Frankly, I fail to see enough evidence to support such pessimism. The prospective owners plunked down $25M, the league is finally, finally getting involved with the negotiations. I'd say the odds are 50/50 that a deal gets done, the glass half full.
im sorry, i thought you were refering to the resurrection of the phoenix hockey market, not the resurrection of a deal getting done....im not sure its 50/50 but i agree that it is not over....if that is what you were talking about i might use the past two years of failed deals and ridiculous pirouettes by almost every player in this dance as evidence to support pessimism.

if that 25m is your light in the darkness, i might ask what is it actually for?...did he commit to something?...did he actually hand it over to anyone?....does anyone know why he even did it?

im also not convinced that daly's studdering comments are an indication that the league has rolled up its sleeves to hash out some deal....his language didnt make it sound like they are in the dark room, sweaty brow phase...i read it as a cursory 'we took his phone call' kind of thing.


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10-12-2010, 12:32 AM
  #994
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Can't speak for the Xtians amongst us, but the "judeo model" of the resurrection is that it never happened. That's what you were going for, right?
Debatable Dado. The books of Elijah, Elisha & Ezekiel all refer to it, and their are sects within the Jewish Faith that believe in it. Are you suggesting, Sir, that I write in the form of Ergodic Literature, referencing things that are either completely false or made up?. Well. I never!.

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10-12-2010, 12:45 AM
  #995
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if that 25m is your light in the darkness, i might ask what is it actually for?...did he commit to something?...did he actually hand it over to anyone?....does anyone know why he even did it?
Yup. And its either a beacon of hope in a dark tunnel or Mother Marjorie Marmalade the Freight Train barreling down the track. The $25Mil is a sign of good faith, deposited into an escrow account, confirmed by the COG. Serious intent to work towards the finalization of an AMULA & purchase of the franchise from the league. A down payment on his membership to the club.

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10-12-2010, 01:18 AM
  #996
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Good to see people are still pretty much making things up.

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10-12-2010, 01:40 AM
  #997
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Yup. And its either a beacon of hope in a dark tunnel or Mother Marjorie Marmalade the Freight Train barreling down the track. The $25Mil is a sign of good faith, deposited into an escrow account, confirmed by the COG. Serious intent to work towards the finalization of an AMULA & purchase of the franchise from the league. A down payment on his membership to the club.
a sign of good faith for what?....what happens if he has bad faith?....he walks and takes his money with him.....it is not an assurance of anything as far as i can see....its kind of bizarre that he was asked to do it, really.....its not a down payment on anything because neither the NHL or COG have any access to it.

he put his own money in his own bank....totally meaningless.

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10-12-2010, 01:57 AM
  #998
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Yup. And its either a beacon of hope in a dark tunnel or Mother Marjorie Marmalade the Freight Train barreling down the track. The $25Mil is a sign of good faith, deposited into an escrow account, confirmed by the COG. Serious intent to work towards the finalization of an AMULA & purchase of the franchise from the league. A down payment on his membership to the club.
And fully refundable, no doubt. That's the safest kind of "good faith". You get it all back if and when a deal doesn't work out.

At least we know he's worth at least $25MM. He'll have to raise a few more bananas than that to buy the team and run it long enough to make a profit.

His wife is probably wishing he would just buy seasons tickets or even build a whole new arena for his alma mater and leave it at that. If the NHL doesn't outright give him the team for free, the price will be too high.


Last edited by Mork: 10-12-2010 at 08:28 AM.
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