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Old
10-12-2010, 02:42 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
Alright, so if you were given the choice of either Briere or Carter to take one shot from the circle you'd pick Carter? Mind you the objective is to score, not hit the goalie logo or glass.
Abso-****ing-lutely.

Now, if they could skate in, do a deke, and open the goalie up... I'd go with Briere.

But that isn't being a pure shooter.

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10-12-2010, 02:51 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Abso-****ing-lutely.

Now, if they could skate in, do a deke, and open the goalie up... I'd go with Briere.

But that isn't being a pure shooter.
Briere has an absolutely deadly slapper that he loves to use when coming in near the side-boards.

Other then that, Carter is the better shooter, yeah.

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10-12-2010, 02:53 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Briere has an absolutely deadly slapper that he loves use when coming in near the side-boards.

Other then that, Carter is the better shooter, yeah.
Which isn't even a criticism of Briere... Carter has a better wrist shot than 99% of the league.

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10-12-2010, 02:58 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Abso-****ing-lutely.

Now, if they could skate in, do a deke, and open the goalie up... I'd go with Briere.

But that isn't being a pure shooter.
I wouldn't, I understand Carter has a quick, strong wrist shot, but thats all he has. Carter's shot selection is horrid, he has no slap shot, and his accuracy is that of a shotgun. Give me Briere.

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10-12-2010, 03:22 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
I wouldn't, I understand Carter has a quick, strong wrist shot, but thats all he has. Carter's shot selection is horrid, he has no slap shot, and his accuracy is that of a shotgun. Give me Briere.
If you have a goalie squared up and ready for Briere's shot without anything else going on... there's very little chance Briere is beating him with his shot.

Carter's shot can just flat overpower goalies, which is a big part of why he shoots so often and from everywhere.

Being a good scorer does not necessarily mean having the best shot in the world. There's a reason so many of Briere's goals come from him being quick in and around the crease, as opposed to shooting at range.

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10-12-2010, 04:46 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
If you have a goalie squared up and ready for Briere's shot without anything else going on... there's very little chance Briere is beating him with his shot.

Carter's shot can just flat overpower goalies, which is a big part of why he shoots so often and from everywhere.

Being a good scorer does not necessarily mean having the best shot in the world. There's a reason so many of Briere's goals come from him being quick in and around the crease, as opposed to shooting at range.
You just contradicted yourself big time. I would take briere every single time. Carter may have a fast release, but he misses the net so so much. At least briere is going to give himself a chance 9/10 times. Carter may be lucky to have 3/10 hit the net.

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10-12-2010, 06:24 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
You just contradicted yourself big time. I would take briere every single time. Carter may have a fast release, but he misses the net so so much. At least briere is going to give himself a chance 9/10 times. Carter may be lucky to have 3/10 hit the net.
No I didn't. The discussion was how is a better "pure shooter." It's Carter, and it ain't even close.

Briere is a dangler, not a shooter... and there's a very important distinction between the two.

And, hitting the net, is overrated, when you're talking about shooting. While I would like Carter to just put the puck on net a bit more... putting the puck square into the goalies chest isn't getting you anywhere. Why do guys like Carter, Ovechkin, etc. (i.e., guys that shoot the puck a ton) miss the net a lot? Because they're shooting for corners... not just trying to get the puck on net. While their is value in just putting the puck on net in game situations with traffic and rebounds, if you're talking about beating a NHL level goalie with a shot... just getting it on net isn't getting **** done.

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10-12-2010, 06:46 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No I didn't. The discussion was how is a better "pure shooter." It's Carter, and it ain't even close.

Briere is a dangler, not a shooter... and there's a very important distinction between the two.

And, hitting the net, is overrated, when you're talking about shooting. While I would like Carter to just put the puck on net a bit more... putting the puck square into the goalies chest isn't getting you anywhere. Why do guys like Carter, Ovechkin, etc. (i.e., guys that shoot the puck a ton) miss the net a lot? Because they're shooting for corners... not just trying to get the puck on net.] While their is value in just putting the puck on net in game situations with traffic and rebounds, if you're talking about beating a NHL level goalie with a shot... just getting it on net isn't getting **** done.

I know the point you're trying to make, but this is the stupidest thing you have ever said.

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10-12-2010, 08:46 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
I know the point you're trying to make, but this is the stupidest thing you have ever said.
That is kind of funny.

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10-12-2010, 09:11 PM
  #60
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Well, if Carter is hitting the goalie in the chest, then technically, he's shooting the puck on the net. And hockey 101 says when you shoot the puck, always shoot on the net because you never know what can happen. Personally, I hope they encourage Carter to shoot more.

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10-12-2010, 11:45 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
I know the point you're trying to make, but this is the stupidest thing you have ever said.
Not really... If I'm standing square up to a goalie and he's in the middle of the net and I shoot to the middle of the net so the goalie doesn't even have to move (as in, there is 0% chance the puck will go in) is that better than trying to put it to the side of the goalie, which will bring with it an increasing chance the puck will miss the net?

If you're talking about a pure shooter, they're shooting to beat the goalie... not rack up SOG statistics. They don't pick winners and losers based on SOG (we would have really *ing sucked in previous years if they did).

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10-13-2010, 07:29 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Not really... If I'm standing square up to a goalie and he's in the middle of the net and I shoot to the middle of the net so the goalie doesn't even have to move (as in, there is 0% chance the puck will go in) is that better than trying to put it to the side of the goalie, which will bring with it an increasing chance the puck will miss the net?

If you're talking about a pure shooter, they're shooting to beat the goalie... not rack up SOG statistics. They don't pick winners and losers based on SOG (we would have really *ing sucked in previous years if they did).
In my mind they are two very different shooters and each has his place, depending on the situation you would pick either of them to be your shooter. Briere clearly believes in hitting the target and then slight mi****s move to the corners whereas Carter believes in aim small - miss small, aim for a particular spot and if you miss you only miss by a little because of the added concentration.

Not sure it works for Carter but I'm glad we have both of them either way!

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10-13-2010, 07:56 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Not really... If I'm standing square up to a goalie and he's in the middle of the net and I shoot to the middle of the net so the goalie doesn't even have to move (as in, there is 0% chance the puck will go in) is that better than trying to put it to the side of the goalie, which will bring with it an increasing chance the puck will miss the net?

If you're talking about a pure shooter, they're shooting to beat the goalie... not rack up SOG statistics. They don't pick winners and losers based on SOG (we would have really *ing sucked in previous years if they did).
0 % of the shots that miss the net are going in, too.

"Getting the puck on net" does not necessarily mean hitting the center of the net. I understand what you're getting at, but saying "hitting the net is overrated," is the dumbest thing ever.

If you miss the net, that shot attempt is useless. If you're one-on-one with an NHL goalie, then yes, you have to stretch for the edges of the cage, but actually hitting the net is still pretty essential.

It's impossible to overrate something without which you cannot score (assuming you're talking about a straight shot, one-on-one with the goalie, and there's nobody around to redirect it if it's going wide).

You have a much higher chance at a less-than-ideal shot that is on net finding its way into the net, than you do of a shot that's missing the net finding it's way in. Especially when you're Jeff Carter and your shot can overpower goalies and find its way through them anyway.


It's like saying that, as a goalie, "getting in front of the puck" is overrated. 'Cause, at the NHL level, if you're not going to do it with style and control your rebounds, you're better off just letting the puck in on the first shot.

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10-13-2010, 08:54 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
If you miss the net, that shot attempt is useless. If you're one-on-one with an NHL goalie, then yes, you have to stretch for the edges of the cage, but actually hitting the net is still pretty essential.
Yes, but you're ignoring the fact that there is variance in where you aim and where the puck ends up actually going. Sometimes it goes exactly where you want it to go, other times you miss by a bit in one direction or another. If you're aiming to the edge of the net, as opposed to the middle, that variance is going to take the puck outside of the net much more often than if you're just trying to put the puck on net. However, that same shot is far more likely to go in, because the area it's likely to end up on net is far more dangerous than if you just chuck it at the goalie's chest... and get it on net.

SOG is an overrated statistic if you're talking about an individual shooter in an individual instance. Alex Ovechkin misses the net a *ing ton, are we saying we wouldn't want him taking the shot for us in this situation...because he misses the net a lot?

The question you need to ask is the following: what shot is more likely to beat a goalie?

It is clearly the shot for the corner, especially at the NHL level. That's the higher probability shot by a mile. NHL goalies are too good, and if you're trying to beat them with your shot... you can't shoot to the middle of the net, and that means you're going to miss the net a fair amount if you're shooting a lot.

It's the same thing with pitchers... is throwing strikes the goal, or is throwing good strikes the goal? Throwing strikes, in that sense, is overrated. If you're grooving fastballs down the middle you're going to get slaughtered.

Anyone in the NHL can chuck shots on net... the guys that shoot for the corners and miss the net often, are going to be the ones accumulating lots of goals.

Missed shots leaders [forwards] (goals)
Alex Ovechkin 172 (50)
Brad Richards 142 (24)
Jeff Carter 141 (33)
Steve Stamkos 123 (51)
Dany Heatley 117 (39)
Ilya Kovalchuk 117 (41)
...

There is a direct correlation between scoring goals in this league, and missing the net a lot. Hitting the net (as a line of criticizing a shooter for missing the net with regularity) is completely overrated. The goalies are simply too good.

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10-13-2010, 08:55 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Fuzzy Logic View Post
In my mind they are two very different shooters and each has his place, depending on the situation you would pick either of them to be your shooter. Briere clearly believes in hitting the target and then slight mi****s move to the corners whereas Carter believes in aim small - miss small, aim for a particular spot and if you miss you only miss by a little because of the added concentration.

Not sure it works for Carter but I'm glad we have both of them either way!
...he has 79 goals in the previous two seasons.

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10-13-2010, 09:03 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yes, but you're ignoring the fact that there is variance in where you aim and where the puck ends up actually going. Sometimes it goes exactly where you want it to go, other times you miss by a bit in one direction or another. If you're aiming to the edge of the net, as opposed to the middle, that variance is going to take the puck outside of the net much more often than if you're just trying to put the puck on net. However, that same shot is far more likely to go in, because the area it's likely to end up on net is far more dangerous than if you just chuck it at the goalie's chest... and get it on net.

SOG is an overrated statistic if you're talking about an individual shooter in an individual instance. Alex Ovechkin misses the net a *ing ton, are we saying we wouldn't want him taking the shot for us in this situation...because he misses the net a lot?

The question you need to ask is the following: what shot is more likely to beat a goalie?

It is clearly the shot for the corner, especially at the NHL level. That's the higher probability shot by a mile. NHL goalies are too good, and if you're trying to beat them with your shot... you can't shoot to the middle of the net, and that means you're going to miss the net a fair amount if you're shooting a lot.

It's the same thing with pitchers... is throwing strikes the goal, or is throwing good strikes the goal? Throwing strikes, in that sense, is overrated. If you're grooving fastballs down the middle you're going to get slaughtered.

Anyone in the NHL can chuck shots on net... the guys that shoot for the corners and miss the net often, are going to be the ones accumulating lots of goals.

Missed shots leaders [forwards] (goals)
Alex Ovechkin 172 (50)
Brad Richards 142 (24)
Jeff Carter 141 (33)
Steve Stamkos 123 (51)
Dany Heatley 117 (39)
Ilya Kovalchuk 117 (41)
...

There is a direct correlation between scoring goals in this league, and missing the net a lot. Hitting the net (as a line of criticizing a shooter for missing the net with regularity) is completely overrated. The goalies are simply too good.

I agree with what you are saying here but what about the shots that completely miss the net and then bounce out of the zone giving the other team a scoring chance? If you have a bad angle, why not shoot it low and hope for a rebound instead of missing the net and turning the puck over? He shot it low from a bad angle on Monday and it won us the game.

The other problem I have with Carter is his inability to finish when he should during high pressure situations (2 years ago vs. Pitt and Game 6 last year, I was there and I was so angry when he didn't finish.) If Carter can tweak his game to not miss the net so much and actually produce in the playoffs he would be a much more effective player.

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10-13-2010, 09:13 AM
  #67
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I agree with what you are saying here but what about the shots that completely miss the net and then bounce out of the zone giving the other team a scoring chance? If you have a bad angle, why not shoot it low and hope for a rebound instead of missing the net and turning the puck over? He shot it low from a bad angle on Monday and it won us the game.

The other problem I have with Carter is his inability to finish when he should during high pressure situations (2 years ago vs. Pitt and Game 6 last year, I was there and I was so angry when he didn't finish.) If Carter can tweak his game to not miss the net so much and actually produce in the playoffs he would be a much more effective player.
1) Give MAF credit. Some of the saves he made on Carter were abso-*ing-lutely absurd. The toe save in particular was remarkable. The leg came out of nowhere.

2) Niemi just had dumb luck on his side. Shot hit him in the mask and that's the way it goes.

Carter was probably our best player in that Pens series before his shoulder got effed... and his playoff production the previous year was dead on his season numbers (what you expect from players).

The guy has scored a lot of goals the last few years... he is one of the most effective goal scorers in the NHL right now.

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10-13-2010, 09:43 AM
  #68
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i gotta go with briere on this one too. ive seen him numerous times come down the right half boards and take a clapper at a squared up goalie and put it right in over the goalies shoulder ala in the new jersey series. i cant remember the last time ive seen carter put a shot past a goalie from beyond the dots. (although i do have bad memory)

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10-13-2010, 09:45 AM
  #69
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1) Give MAF credit. Some of the saves he made on Carter were abso-*ing-lutely absurd. The toe save in particular was remarkable. The leg came out of nowhere.

2) Niemi just had dumb luck on his side. Shot hit him in the mask and that's the way it goes.

Carter was probably our best player in that Pens series before his shoulder got effed... and his playoff production the previous year was dead on his season numbers (what you expect from players).

The guy has scored a lot of goals the last few years... he is one of the most effective goal scorers in the NHL right now.

You missed my first part about missing the net. What are your thoughts?

I know that Carter is very good but he needs to improve a lot in certain areas, mostly consistency and producing in the playoffs. I know he was injured but from what I can remember he didn't do a whole lot for us in the playoffs the last 3 years. If he is supposedly our best scorer than he needs to do better in the playoffs.

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10-13-2010, 09:57 AM
  #70
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...he has 79 goals in the previous two seasons.
Wasn't doubting his scoring record, delighted we have him with us. There's room for both types of shooter in the NHL as rarely do you have the situation where the shot has to go in with no option of rebounds/deflections etc...

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10-13-2010, 10:29 AM
  #71
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Briere's shot and ability to score is way underrated.

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10-13-2010, 10:46 AM
  #72
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Briere's shot and ability to score is way underrated.
I agree with this. Of the forwards on our team right now, Briere is either 1 or 2 (along with Zherdev) on the list of guys I want with the puck 10-15 feet from the net. To me, when Briere's there, he's money. The problem is, he's so small that if you have a dman there, he doesn't get a ton of chances to walk through the middle.

When he does, though, he seems to do well.

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10-13-2010, 10:59 AM
  #73
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What does a Briere/Carter shooting contest have to do with Cannon?

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10-13-2010, 11:02 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by CarcillosMustache View Post
i gotta go with briere on this one too. ive seen him numerous times come down the right half boards and take a clapper at a squared up goalie and put it right in over the goalies shoulder ala in the new jersey series. i cant remember the last time ive seen carter put a shot past a goalie from beyond the dots. (although i do have bad memory)
Sure, but that's a limited opportunity shot... and when Briere shoots from there (which isn't all that often), he misses the net a fair amount, too.

Quote:
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You missed my first part about missing the net. What are your thoughts?

I know that Carter is very good but he needs to improve a lot in certain areas, mostly consistency and producing in the playoffs. I know he was injured but from what I can remember he didn't do a whole lot for us in the playoffs the last 3 years. If he is supposedly our best scorer than he needs to do better in the playoffs.
When you shoot often, you're going to have shots that miss the net and go out of the zone... just the nature of the beast.

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I agree with this. Of the forwards on our team right now, Briere is either 1 or 2 (along with Zherdev) on the list of guys I want with the puck 10-15 feet from the net. To me, when Briere's there, he's money. The problem is, he's so small that if you have a dman there, he doesn't get a ton of chances to walk through the middle.

When he does, though, he seems to do well.
You don't really need a "good shot" at that range, just an accurate one. Which Briere absolutely has. 10-15 feet is incredibly close to the goalie... the faceoff dots aren't even that close.

There's little doubt that Briere is a better scorer than Carter in close with room to maneuver on the goalie (thus why he's so good in shootouts).

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10-13-2010, 11:03 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Briere's shot and ability to score is way underrated.
OK, his career high in goals is 32.

You spend a lot of time disparaging Carter... he's bested that in each of the last two years. How underrated is his ability to shoot and score?

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