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Old
10-13-2010, 02:08 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by MrHockey1982 View Post
I see what you're saying but I have watched hockey for a very long time and Carter has the potential to be much better than he has been. I am far more impressed with Giroux and see him surpassing Carter as our best scorer eventually. So what you're telling me is that you're 100% satisfied with Carter's overall performance? I certainly am not but I recognize that he's very good. During his big year he was unstoppable for a few weeks and looked better than anyone else in the entire league for that short period of time. I want him to improve his skills such as one timers and getting better quality shooting chances. 33 goals for him just does not seem like what he should be scoring and I think he should get at least 40 for a few more years.
In the modern NHL, you have to be happy with anyone who is going to average 35+ goals (assuming 82 games played.) There really is no other way to look at it. The only exception is when a player is getting Crosby/Ovechkin/Kovalchuk money.

Carter may never score 46 goals ever again. That's a distinct possibility. And for a player to suddenly see a permanent increase in shooting accuracy is not very probably. For an 11th overall pick he has absolutely met expectations. He's 4th in the entire draft class in goals and is much better defensively than manner of his goal scoring peers.

If Carter had the accurate shot that people demand that he develop (or at least feel that he has the potential to develop) he'd be a perennial 50+ goal scorer. Or, in the other words, a Hall of Famer. That's asking a bit much.

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10-13-2010, 02:10 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
When the claim by online posters make Carter out to be the next coming of Wayne Gretzky it is fair to put a little reality check on things, just sayin', but I'll take it.
Cite it.

Otherwise this claim is just a poor reflection on your own ridiculous bias. Your "reality check" is constructed of an alternate reality of your own construction. You need the reality check.

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10-13-2010, 02:14 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
If Carter needs to be more accurate, then virtually every other player in the NHL does too.
He needs to develop a one-timer, find his way into the slot and the soft spot in the inbetween the defense and the fwds(between the circles), get to the net more, work on his ability to dig pucks and win battles on the boards, and needs to be more patient when entering the offensive zone to take the puck deep and force the defenders to defend him below the red line and behind the crease thus initiating the cycle....he is good defensively, uses his reach well on the backcheck, can skate with anyone in the league, has one of the heaviest wrist shots in the NHL, and has improved his faceoff % each year.

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10-13-2010, 02:16 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Cite it.

Otherwise this claim is just a poor reflection on your own ridiculous bias. Your "reality check" is constructed of an alternate reality of your own construction. You need the reality check.
Because fruitcakes decide to defend him because he scored 46 goals one year instead of looking at the big picture. I will use my comparison to Joe Thornton or Ollie Jokinen, great scorers but will never win a Cup. They are fantasy hockey players who are beloved by fantasy hockey fans.

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10-13-2010, 02:20 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
When the claim by online posters make Carter out to be the next coming of Wayne Gretzky it is fair to put a little reality check on things, just sayin', but I'll take it.
I have never seen that. Could it be one's sensitivity to one's object of hatred makes one see what isn't there? Appreciation of Jeff Carter is not equivalent to hyperbole.

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10-13-2010, 02:21 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
In the modern NHL, you have to be happy with anyone who is going to average 35+ goals (assuming 82 games played.) There really is no other way to look at it. The only exception is when a player is getting Crosby/Ovechkin/Kovalchuk money.

Carter may never score 46 goals ever again. That's a distinct possibility. And for a player to suddenly see a permanent increase in shooting accuracy is not very probably. For an 11th overall pick he has absolutely met expectations. He's 4th in the entire draft class in goals and is much better defensively than manner of his goal scoring peers.

If Carter had the accurate shot that people demand that he develop (or at least feel that he has the potential to develop) he'd be a perennial 50+ goal scorer. Or, in the other words, a Hall of Famer. That's asking a bit much.

Fair enough but Carter has only even hit 30 goals twice. To me he just seems like the type of player that should hover right around 40 goals every year. I would be happy if Carter got between 35 and 40 goals a year but it would be nice to see him get back up to 45 again. I think this year will tell the story as long as he's healthy and then his performance in the playoffs needs to improve too.

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10-13-2010, 02:21 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Cite it.

Otherwise this claim is just a poor reflection on your own ridiculous bias. Your "reality check" is constructed of an alternate reality of your own construction. You need the reality check.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Because fruitcakes decide to defend him because he scored 46 goals one year instead of looking at the big picture. I will use my comparison to Joe Thornton or Ollie Jokinen, great scorers but will never win a Cup. They are fantasy hockey players who are beloved by fantasy hockey fans.
= "I can't cite it."

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10-13-2010, 02:22 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
In the modern NHL, you have to be happy with anyone who is going to average 35+ goals (assuming 82 games played.) There really is no other way to look at it. The only exception is when a player is getting Crosby/Ovechkin/Kovalchuk money.

Carter may never score 46 goals ever again. That's a distinct possibility. And for a player to suddenly see a permanent increase in shooting accuracy is not very probably. For an 11th overall pick he has absolutely met expectations. He's 4th in the entire draft class in goals and is much better defensively than manner of his goal scoring peers.

If Carter had the accurate shot that people demand that he develop (or at least feel that he has the potential to develop) he'd be a perennial 50+ goal scorer. Or, in the other words, a Hall of Famer. That's asking a bit much.
You know what's awesome? Jeff Carter: 144 goals through the first 5 seasons of his career. So, 28.8 average. I think it's safe to say that we expect him to up that average in the coming years, but lets just work with that average.

Lets say he plays 15 years in the NHL (conservative estimate for a player of his level). 15 x 28.8 = 432 goals. That would tie him for 64th all time with Vincent Damphousse in goal scoring.

If he can maintain that average, here are the subsequent seasons:
16 years: 460.8 (52nd all time, just behind LaFontaine)
17 years: 489.6 (45th all time)
18 years: 518.4 (34th all time, tied with Hawerchuk)
19 years: 547.2 (28th all time, beating out Maurice Richard)
20 years: 576 (19th all time, ahead of Bossy)

Now, of course, I'm not saying Carter is a lock for the HoF (at his current rate) if he plays that long. But hopefully this is food for thought for those complaining about Carter only getting 33 goals.

33 goal average for 15 years = 495 goals.

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10-13-2010, 02:26 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Because fruitcakes decide to defend him because he scored 46 goals one year instead of looking at the big picture. I will use my comparison to Joe Thornton or Ollie Jokinen, great scorers but will never win a Cup. They are fantasy hockey players who are beloved by fantasy hockey fans.
The big picture is that you have a biased dislike of Jeff Carter, and have invented a straw man argument of folks irrationally fawning over him, which you must combat with completely made up **** that has no basis in reality.

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10-13-2010, 02:30 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Cite it.

Otherwise this claim is just a poor reflection on your own ridiculous bias. Your "reality check" is constructed of an alternate reality of your own construction. You need the reality check.
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Originally Posted by Flyskippy View Post
I have never seen that. Could it be one's sensitivity to one's object of hatred makes one see what isn't there? Appreciation of Jeff Carter is not equivalent to hyperbole.
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Originally Posted by Flyskippy View Post
= "I can't cite it."



Example A.

Can a person not see that some may overvalue a guy like Carter by the fans? People buy his jersey and cite his 46 goals but refuse to watch him each year do the same things. Because I see him differently than others does not mean my bulletpoints do not hold any merit, as a matter of fact I am only pointing out weaknesses in his game which some, ahem, cough cough, may not want to address. For the team to be successful he needs to show up each night, he needs to make changes to improve his game.....look at JvR as a prime example from last season to this season.

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10-13-2010, 02:33 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The big picture is that you have a biased dislike of Jeff Carter, and have invented a straw man argument of folks irrationally fawning over him, which you must combat with completely made up **** that has no basis in reality.
I have given you examples of where I see faults in his game. I have also stated that he is important to the success/failure of this team. I could point out five shortcomings in his game but someone will come back with..."but guys who score 46 goals do not come around every day..".....that is the strawman argument being put out there.


Now back to Richards.....

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10-13-2010, 02:35 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post





Example A.

Can a person not see that some may overvalue a guy like Carter by the fans? People buy his jersey and cite his 46 goals but refuse to watch him each year do the same things. Because I see him differently than others does not mean my bulletpoints do not hold any merit, as a matter of fact I am only pointing out weaknesses in his game which some, ahem, cough cough, may not want to address. For the team to be successful he needs to show up each night, he needs to make changes to improve his game.....look at JvR as a prime example from last season to this season.
You're asking him to be successful in other ways than he's already found (one-timers, slap shot, etc.). Could be he's comfortable. Were it that big an issue, Lava and co. would address it. He's the Flyers' best faceoff man, he plays well against the top centers in the league, and can play both sides of special teams -- all whilst being the Flyers' most potent shooter. You wanna keep the magnifying glass over him, fine. You wanna keep claiming to see things others don't see, fine.

Just don't expect many to respect your opinions since you insult them ("fruitcakes") and claim to corner the market on insight.

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10-13-2010, 02:37 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Can a person not see that some may overvalue a guy like Carter by the fans? People buy his jersey and cite his 46 goals but refuse to watch him each year do the same things. Because I see him differently than others does not mean my bulletpoints do not hold any merit, as a matter of fact I am only pointing out weaknesses in his game which some, ahem, cough cough, may not want to address. For the team to be successful he needs to show up each night, he needs to make changes to improve his game.....look at JvR as a prime example from last season to this season.
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
He needs to develop a one-timer, find his way into the slot and the soft spot in the inbetween the defense and the fwds(between the circles), get to the net more, work on his ability to dig pucks and win battles on the boards, and needs to be more patient when entering the offensive zone to take the puck deep and force the defenders to defend him below the red line and behind the crease thus initiating the cycle....he is good defensively, uses his reach well on the backcheck, can skate with anyone in the league, has one of the heaviest wrist shots in the NHL, and has improved his faceoff % each year.
You touched on ways Carter has improved his game since he's been in the NHL. He is continually improving in ways that help the team off of the scoresheet while maintaining a top goal scoring clip.

You claim people have overvalued Carter, but I mainly see people defending him for what he is. You seem to expect perfection for some reason.

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10-13-2010, 02:37 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I have given you examples of where I see faults in his game. I have also stated that he is important to the success/failure of this team. I could point out five shortcomings in his game but someone will come back with..."but guys who score 46 goals do not come around every day..".....that is the strawman argument being put out there.


Now back to Richards.....
I'm going to go ahead and say you don't know what a straw man argument is.

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10-13-2010, 02:39 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I have given you examples of where I see faults in his game. I have also stated that he is important to the success/failure of this team. I could point out five shortcomings in his game but someone will come back with..."but guys who score 46 goals do not come around every day..".....that is the strawman argument being put out there.


Now back to Richards.....
No one defends Carter by just using the 46 goals on this site.

He's one of the team's best two-way forwards.... who can also score a lot of goals.

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10-13-2010, 02:41 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I'm going to go ahead and say you don't know what a straw man argument is.
*sees Person A posit Position X*

*awaits Person B, who will ignore Position X and counter with Position Y, which resembles Position X*

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10-13-2010, 02:42 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
You touched on ways Carter has improved his game since he's been in the NHL. He is continually improving in ways that help the team off of the scoresheet while maintaining a top goal scoring clip.

You claim people have overvalued Carter, but I mainly see people defending him for what he is. You seem to expect perfection for some reason.
There are multiple problems.

The first is the belief put forward that there is some rabid group of Carter lovers out there that are comparing him to HoFers, etc. The problem there, of course, is the reality is that Carter catches a ton of unfair flak on this board, and always has. Case in point, the man scores 79 goals in two seasons, and that isn't good enough.

The second is the apparent belief that if Carter would just work a bit harder he could be a 60 goal scorer with regularity. The primary reason, for example, that Carter hasn't developed a one-timer/slapper is because his wrister is so damn good that it's always been (and remains) a better option for him. A one-timer would help him a bit as a PP player, but very little elsewhere in his game.

Frankly, the biggest addition to his game would be developing comfort moving right-to-left as opposed to left-to-right (on his backhand, as opposed to just on his forehand). This is, by far, the biggest hole in his game as a player right now. He just doesn't like taking the puck to his left when he's carrying it... also why he struggles at RW. By putting him at RW, you're making it very hard for him to get himself into the middle of the ice for higher percentage shots.

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10-13-2010, 02:49 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Flyskippy View Post
You're asking him to be successful in other ways than he's already found (one-timers, slap shot, etc.). Could be he's comfortable. Were it that big an issue, Lava and co. would address it. He's the Flyers' best faceoff man, he plays well against the top centers in the league, and can play both sides of special teams -- all whilst being the Flyers' most potent shooter. You wanna keep the magnifying glass over him, fine. You wanna keep claiming to see things others don't see, fine.

Just don't expect many to respect your opinions since you insult them ("fruitcakes") and claim to corner the market on insight.
I am so sorry, please send me to sensitivity training.

If he is comfortable then that is an even more disturbing thought. Professional athletes at this level should constantly be developing new parts of their game to work on. Maybe they have addressed it and Carter has not taken the personal time it would require to imporve those aspects of his game? Who knows? Maybe a change like this will help get a line with a little more cohesiveness and chemistry? I am only offering an alternative, devils advocate if you care, response to the "lemming theory".
Carter and Richards should be a very good pairing, I will be interested to see if over the next couple games if JvR gets more time with those two.

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10-13-2010, 02:54 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
You touched on ways Carter has improved his game since he's been in the NHL. He is continually improving in ways that help the team off of the scoresheet while maintaining a top goal scoring clip.

You claim people have overvalued Carter, but I mainly see people defending him for what he is. You seem to expect perfection for some reason.
See, I think those are things that he came to the NHL with, those come easy to him because he is a skilled NHL player who has relied on his skills to get him from one level to the next. What things has he really worked on to change? JvR went ot camps and got bigger in the upper body, made some mental changes to be a more physical player. I would like to see him take the next step and not rely on his wrist shot so much and develop a more consistent slapshot.

What is see in comparison to others is a player who has had things come easy to him, thus when the playoffs come around and it takes the extra effort to get the job done he comes up short. It is why guys like Richards and Briere come up big, they dig deep to work a little harder. Coburn would be another example, and it is why I hope this season he breaks out by applying the playoffs mentality to the regular season.

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10-13-2010, 02:56 PM
  #120
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I am so sorry, please send me to sensitivity training.

If he is comfortable then that is an even more disturbing thought. Professional athletes at this level should constantly be developing new parts of their game to work on. Maybe they have addressed it and Carter has not taken the personal time it would require to imporve those aspects of his game? Who knows? Maybe a change like this will help get a line with a little more cohesiveness and chemistry? I am only offering an alternative, devils advocate if you care, response to the "lemming theory".
Carter and Richards should be a very good pairing, I will be interested to see if over the next couple games if JvR gets more time with those two.


You have discussed aspects of Carter's game that have improved... and, as you mention above, he will (read: should) be constantly working on the areas of his game that need improvement.

It took me this long to realize that you would still find reason to complain about Carter if he broke Gretzky's single season goal record, won the Hart, Richard and Selke trophies but didn't win the Art Ross or Conn Smythe... even if the Flyers won the Cup.

Again, Carter is a solid two-way forward who also is proficient at putting the puck in the net. I haven't seen anyone on the Flyers board claim he's more than that.

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10-13-2010, 02:59 PM
  #121
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Carter was never discussed this much till Cartsiephan showed up. The reason logically minded people are defending him is because CP's criticism has been based on his irrational hatred of him and his constant hijacking of threads that have nothing to do with Carter. Goalie debate? Mike Richards? Somehow CP is in there ripping on Carter.

He's not my favourite player on the team. Richards, Timonen and Roo are my 3 favourites but I can see how valuable Carter is to this team. He's never going to dangle like Roo or crash like Richards but they're never going to have his wheels or heavy wrister. No one player can do everything well. You said we compare him to Gretzky which is garbage and you know it. And incidentally, Gretzky had a laughable slapshot and couldn't hit to save his life!

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10-13-2010, 03:00 PM
  #122
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I'm going to go ahead and say you don't know what a straw man argument is.
Yup, your argument never moves, just like the strawman. I have to believe what you tell me because he scored 46 goals, because people say he is the best player on this team. As a matter of fact, let's play a little game. Who is the most valuable forwards on this team? List them in order...

1. Mike Richards
2. Claude Giroux
3. Jeff Carter
4. Danny Briere
5. JvR
6. Zherdev
7. Leino
8. Hartnell
9. Carcillo
10. Betts
11. Shelley
12. Powe

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10-13-2010, 03:01 PM
  #123
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Carter was never discussed this much till Cartsiephan showed up. The reason logically minded people are defending him is because CP's criticism has been based on his irrational hatred of him and his constant hijacking of threads that have nothing to do with Carter. Goalie debate? Mike Richards? Somehow CP is in there ripping on Carter.

He's not my favourite player on the team. Richards, Timonen and Roo are my 3 favourites but I can see how valuable Carter is to this team. He's never going to dangle like Roo or crash like Richards but they're never going to have his wheels or heavy wrister. No one player can do everything well. You said we compare him to Gretzky which is garbage and you know it. And incidentally, Gretzky had a laughable slapshot and couldn't hit to save his life!
It was too, stop it, read before you state something like that. Jester and ??? were debating Carter and Briere shooting.....I just happened to jump in...

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10-13-2010, 03:06 PM
  #124
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Frankly, the biggest addition to his game would be developing comfort moving right-to-left as opposed to left-to-right (on his backhand, as opposed to just on his forehand). This is, by far, the biggest hole in his game as a player right now. He just doesn't like taking the puck to his left when he's carrying it... also why he struggles at RW. By putting him at RW, you're making it very hard for him to get himself into the middle of the ice for higher percentage shots.
My biggest beef with Carter, offensively, is that he doesn't seem to like to challenge defenders one-on-one... which oftens results in those 45-foot wristers.

I haven't really noticed what you pointed out above, but I'll certainly pay more attention going forward.

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See, I think those are things that he came to the NHL with, those come easy to him because he is a skilled NHL player who has relied on his skills to get him from one level to the next. What things has he really worked on to change? JvR went ot camps and got bigger in the upper body, made some mental changes to be a more physical player. I would like to see him take the next step and not rely on his wrist shot so much and develop a more consistent slapshot.
Almost everyone who cracks an NHL line-up had significant talent at the junior level. It's how they adapt to playing against men that separates them from guys who fizzle out, guys who become 4th liners and guys who become stars.

Carter's defensive game was suspect for his first couple of seasons. He really didn't show noticeable improvement until 07/08. He has also put on a ton of upper body weight (trying to find the Trial on the Isle pictures, without success at the moment) and improved his strength. He was pretty terrible in the faceoff cirlce, until last season.

I couldn't care less if he develops a slapshot, as long as he ripples the twine 30-40 times a year.

Quote:
What is see in comparison to others is a player who has had things come easy to him, thus when the playoffs come around and it takes the extra effort to get the job done he comes up short. It is why guys like Richards and Briere come up big, they dig deep to work a little harder. Coburn would be another example, and it is why I hope this season he breaks out by applying the playoffs mentality to the regular season.
I think the jury's still out on Carter in the playoffs. His first year he saw limited duty and his last couple years he's had to battle through injury. Maybe it's bad luck, maybe he has Thornton's heart, but we haven't seen enough of Carter in a prominent role in the playoffs, while healthy, to conclude either way.

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10-13-2010, 03:10 PM
  #125
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You have discussed aspects of Carter's game that have improved... and, as you mention above, he will (read: should) be constantly working on the areas of his game that need improvement.

It took me this long to realize that you would still find reason to complain about Carter if he broke Gretzky's single season goal record, won the Hart, Richard and Selke trophies but didn't win the Art Ross or Conn Smythe... even if the Flyers won the Cup.

Again, Carter is a solid two-way forward who also is proficient at putting the puck in the net. I haven't seen anyone on the Flyers board claim he's more than that.
I could care less if he scores 25 goals, so long as this TEAM wins Lord Stanley's Cup by doing things to help the TEAM win. I have not discussed ways he has improved outside of his faceoff %, of which is will say a guy his size with his eye-hand coordination should be able to win over 50% routinely. Otherwise the things that have been discussed(i.e- skating, wrist shot, defensive ability) are all things he came to the NHL with, those are the reasons why he was drafted so high. It is the weaknesses that professional athletes work on to make them teh elite of their league, not just rely on the things they came to the NHL with. You cannot really work to get on-ice visision of Giroux, but you can go down to the rink and take 100 one-timers every day after practice.

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