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Did Gretzky benefit from a weak division?

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Old
05-04-2005, 10:31 PM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMoses
So, the teams in the Habs divisionw ere bad because the Habs were so good, yet you refuse to acknowledge that the Oilers goal totals were so high in large part due to Wayne Gretzky?
And worse, he wont acknowledge that the Oilers "weak" division could have been due to the Oilers being so good (as mentioned pages ago).

Boggles the mind...

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05-04-2005, 10:33 PM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
Indeed. Unfortunately, K&R said they had to calculate all the numbers by hand, which sounds incredibly boring and repetitive.

The only other year they did (as far as I know) was 2001, where Sakic was MVP. I know this is completely off topic, but it's still interesting:

1. J Sakic, 68
2. J Jagr, 62
3. M Straka, 56
4. P Elias, 53
5. A Kovalev, 51
T6. P Bure, 50
T6. D Weight, 50
8. A Yashin, 49
T9. P Forsberg, 48
T9. M Hejduk, 48
T9. M Modano, 48

Interesting that three of the top five are from Pittsbrugh, so some team/linemate context may play a role here.
Jagr played with Hrdina, then Mario when he came out of retirement, which allowed him to grab the scoring title. Straka and Kovalev were Lang's wingers.

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05-05-2005, 12:08 AM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMoses
So, the teams in the Habs divisionw ere bad because the Habs were so good, yet you refuse to acknowledge that the Oilers goal totals were so high in large part due to Wayne Gretzky?
Yeah I'll give you that. Sure Wayne was a large part of their success but it's not like he didnt have great players to work with. Kurri was the perfect player and the best right winger of the 80-s (arguably as good as bossy). Oilers won a cup without Gretzky which sais a lot too. Habs didnt win one without Lafleur being on top of his game or without Lafleur period. Yeah they won in 86 but that was a completely different team and only like 2 guys remained. (Robinson and Gainey who were at the ends of their career) Lafleur IMO helped his team as much as Wayne did. By the way I think we should stop arguing because this is going nowhere. You Gretzky supporters arent gonna get convinced Guy was as good as Wayne and you sure wont convince me that Wayne was so much better then Guy.

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05-05-2005, 12:17 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Yeah I'll give you that. Sure Wayne was a large part of their success but it's not like he didnt have great players to work with. Kurri was the perfect player and the best right winger of the 80-s (arguably as good as bossy). Oilers won a cup without Gretzky which sais a lot too. Habs didnt win one without Lafleur being on top of his game or without Lafleur period. Yeah they won in 86 but that was a completely different team and only like 2 guys remained. (Robinson and Gainey who were at the ends of their career) Lafleur IMO helped his team as much as Wayne did. By the way I think we should stop arguing because this is going nowhere. You Gretzky supporters arent gonna get convinced Guy was as good as Wayne and you sure wont convince me that Wayne was so much better then Guy.
Question, what is the greatest team of all time?

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05-05-2005, 01:41 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by norrisnick
Question, what is the greatest team of all time?
Montreal Late 70-s.. best team. Best offensive team... Edmonton 1980-s

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05-05-2005, 03:24 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Montreal Late 70-s.. best team. Best offensive team... Edmonton 1980-s
The Oilers had five offensively skilled players...

Gretzky, Kurri, Messier, Anderson and Coffey.

That's it. Since Kurri was nowhere near the goal scorer Mike Bossy was even thoguh you claim so, much of the reason they were so good is because of Wayne.

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05-05-2005, 06:00 AM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Yeah I'll give you that. Sure Wayne was a large part of their success but it's not like he didnt have great players to work with. Kurri was the perfect player and the best right winger of the 80-s (arguably as good as bossy). Oilers won a cup without Gretzky which sais a lot too. Habs didnt win one without Lafleur being on top of his game or without Lafleur period. Yeah they won in 86 but that was a completely different team and only like 2 guys remained. (Robinson and Gainey who were at the ends of their career) Lafleur IMO helped his team as much as Wayne did. By the way I think we should stop arguing because this is going nowhere. You Gretzky supporters arent gonna get convinced Guy was as good as Wayne and you sure wont convince me that Wayne was so much better then Guy.
That is a flat-out lie. Well, I guess it isn't an actual lie, the Habs didn't win ONE Cup without Lafleur, they won FIVE.

Guy joined the team in 71-71:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php3?pid=2902

The Habs had won the Cup 4 times in the previous 6 years:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/t...ons.php?tid=45

Guy left the Habs in 84-85.

Habs won the Cup again in 85-86. 86 was not a completely differnet team, the roster was virtually identical to the previous year. Only notable difference is that Guy was gone. Follow the links I provided and check for yourself. The 85 team (and in the year's leading up) was loaded with talent like Mats Naslund, Bobby Smith, Larry Robinson, Guy Carbonneau, Bob Gainey, Chris Chelios and Patrick Roy in net. Guy was surrounded by talent, talent good enough to go the distance without him.

Not only did that Habs squad (Guy played with many of the players winning the Cup in 64-69), they won it AGAIN as soon as he retired.


Contrary the fictions K10 here is spinning, Guy joined a powerhouse team. The Habs were already one of the dominant teams in the NHL BEFORE he joined them (4 Cups in 6 years). Even after Guy left, the Habs were STILL good enough to win a Cup. The reason you have not conviced us that Guy was as good as Wayne is because he simply wasn't. Guy joined a dominant franchise, Wayne carried a WHL team. Guy was on the best team ever, Wayne made the Oilers a dynasty. Guy was a good scorer, Wayne was a great scorer.


Last edited by JCD: 05-05-2005 at 06:46 AM.
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05-05-2005, 08:09 AM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Yeah I'll give you that. Sure Wayne was a large part of their success but it's not like he didnt have great players to work with. Kurri was the perfect player and the best right winger of the 80-s (arguably as good as bossy). Oilers won a cup without Gretzky which sais a lot too. Habs didnt win one without Lafleur being on top of his game or without Lafleur period. Yeah they won in 86 but that was a completely different team and only like 2 guys remained. (Robinson and Gainey who were at the ends of their career) Lafleur IMO helped his team as much as Wayne did. By the way I think we should stop arguing because this is going nowhere. You Gretzky supporters arent gonna get convinced Guy was as good as Wayne and you sure wont convince me that Wayne was so much better then Guy.
Its amazing that you never learned to separate viewing things objectively, and having a subjective favorite. That might be easier for me to say since my favorite player of all time is Gretzky. However, my second favorite player of all time is Selanne. I hold Teemu in extremely high regard, and I think he's among the best of his generation (though its not fashionable to think so presently). However, the point is that despite my admiration, and despite the fact that I believe he was one of the best goal scorers and offensive threats of the past 15 years, you still won't find me saying that he was a better player that Steve Yzerman or Joe Sakic or Peter Forsberg. I can suck up the fact that my favorite guy isn't quite at their level, and I can separate being a fan from being an objective observer, at least most of the time. In all the years that you've watched hockey, I'm surprised that you've not gotten to that point. Instead, you're giving the "History of Hockey" board threads and posts that will go down as being classic for their tinges of delusion.

Years from now when Martin Skoula's puck poise is brought up, so too will the great Gretzky v. Lafleur "debates". Good stuff.

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05-05-2005, 10:45 AM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMoses
The Oilers had five offensively skilled players...

Gretzky, Kurri, Messier, Anderson and Coffey.

That's it. Since Kurri was nowhere near the goal scorer Mike Bossy was even thoguh you claim so, much of the reason they were so good is because of Wayne.
And who did habs have? Did they have the 2nd best offensive dman ever in Coffey? Did they have the best one time guy to play with Guy like Kurri? I dont know where you're coming from but Doug Risebrough or Jarvis were not even close to Messier and Tremblay and Lambert were not even close to Anderson. Oilers were the better offensive team and please dont lie.

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05-05-2005, 10:49 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by JCD
That is a flat-out lie. Well, I guess it isn't an actual lie, the Habs didn't win ONE Cup without Lafleur, they won FIVE.

Guy joined the team in 71-71:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php3?pid=2902

The Habs had won the Cup 4 times in the previous 6 years:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/t...ons.php?tid=45

Guy left the Habs in 84-85.

Habs won the Cup again in 85-86. 86 was not a completely differnet team, the roster was virtually identical to the previous year. Only notable difference is that Guy was gone. Follow the links I provided and check for yourself. The 85 team (and in the year's leading up) was loaded with talent like Mats Naslund, Bobby Smith, Larry Robinson, Guy Carbonneau, Bob Gainey, Chris Chelios and Patrick Roy in net. Guy was surrounded by talent, talent good enough to go the distance without him.

Not only did that Habs squad (Guy played with many of the players winning the Cup in 64-69), they won it AGAIN as soon as he retired.


Contrary the fictions K10 here is spinning, Guy joined a powerhouse team. The Habs were already one of the dominant teams in the NHL BEFORE he joined them (4 Cups in 6 years). Even after Guy left, the Habs were STILL good enough to win a Cup. The reason you have not conviced us that Guy was as good as Wayne is because he simply wasn't. Guy joined a dominant franchise, Wayne carried a WHL team. Guy was on the best team ever, Wayne made the Oilers a dynasty. Guy was a good scorer, Wayne was a great scorer.
Guy's prime finished in 81 yet montreal failed to win a cup in the next 4 years. When Guy left, habs won but let's be honest two of the main reasons they won was due to two rookies. Claude Lemieux who scored 3 overtime goals and 23 points and Roy played like a god in net.

Guy was a good scorer? Are you kidding me? Who has more consecutive 6 50 goal seasons? Only two players and thats Bossy and Gretzky. In Guy's prime statistically (a thing you love) only 4 guys come so close. Orr, Lemieux, Gretzky and Esposito. Wayne was a great scorer but sorry Lafleur was a great scorer too,

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05-05-2005, 10:54 AM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Guy's prime finished in 81 yet montreal failed to win a cup in the next 4 years. When Guy left, habs won but let's be honest two of the main reasons they won was due to two rookies. Claude Lemieux who scored 3 overtime goals and 23 points and Roy played like a god in net.

Guy was a good scorer? Are you kidding me? Who has more consecutive 6 50 goal seasons? Only two players and thats Bossy and Gretzky. In Guy's prime statistically (a thing you love) only 4 guys come so close. Orr, Lemieux, Gretzky and Esposito. Wayne was a great scorer but sorry Lafleur was a great scorer too,
Yes Lafleur was great but, Gretzky was the greatest.

Wayne tied for the scoring lead in 79-80 with BJ MacDonald and Brett Callighen as linemates. He then broke the scoring record with 164 points on a team where the second leading scorer had 75 points. Gretzky was dominant long before the Oilers were any good.

Trying to say that Wayne is not the greatest scorer of all time is delusional.

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05-05-2005, 11:23 AM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Guy's prime finished in 81 yet montreal failed to win a cup in the next 4 years. When Guy left, habs won but let's be honest two of the main reasons they won was due to two rookies. Claude Lemieux who scored 3 overtime goals and 23 points and Roy played like a god in net.

Guy was a good scorer? Are you kidding me? Who has more consecutive 6 50 goal seasons? Only two players and thats Bossy and Gretzky. In Guy's prime statistically (a thing you love) only 4 guys come so close. Orr, Lemieux, Gretzky and Esposito. Wayne was a great scorer but sorry Lafleur was a great scorer too,
So, you'll acknowledge that Montreal won that cup because of Lemieux and Roy but you won't accept that the Oilers last cup was mostly due to Godlike performances from Tikkanen and more importantly Ranford and they weren't really supposed to win it?

THat's logical....

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05-05-2005, 11:26 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
And who did habs have? Did they have the 2nd best offensive dman ever in Coffey? Did they have the best one time guy to play with Guy like Kurri? I dont know where you're coming from but Doug Risebrough or Jarvis were not even close to Messier and Tremblay and Lambert were not even close to Anderson. Oilers were the better offensive team and please dont lie.
Nope, they didn't have the second best offensive D-man of all time. They did have three top flight D-Men though, including Robinson. That makes up for it.

Yes, the Habs had an equally as great one time guy and a better guy in front of the net in Shutt. Plus, instead of the nameless bum playing on Wayne's left wing, they had Lemaire who was good in his own right. Even if Kurri is somewhat better than Shutt, Lemaire makes up any difference.

Whatever else the Oilers had doesn't matter because they didn't play with Wayne.

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05-05-2005, 01:25 PM
  #164
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For the life of me have never understood the utterly bizarre logic that a player should be "penalized" or downgraded because he happened to play on a great team. Totally illogical.

As in: "Put Martin Brodeur on a lousy team and let's see him win Cups and Vezinas! So there!!"

And here, suggesting that #99 played with great players, so....

Both Gretzky and Lafleur played on indisputably great teams. Guess what? They were both the best players on those great teams! That is a TRIBUTE to their respective greatness, not a detraction in any way whatsoever! Sorry, the mere implication that either of these guys did it with strings, smoke and mirrors, or because of luck, superior ice, less smoking, inferior competition, better driving habits, bodyguards, better teammates, playing in an "inferior era," etc. is petty, petty, petty.

Ultimately, you are left with results/production. Not just numbers, though #99's are so ridiculously superior to any mere mortals that they cannot be ignored. In the end, you are what the record books say you are (and what followers of the sport remember about you, from first-hand VIEWING experience) both from an individual and team accomplishment perspective.

What's then left is for the chronic detractors to futily attempt to debunk players' achievements. Is Dino Cicarelli "really" a 600 goal scorer? You bet he is. Same with Mike Gartner and his 700+ goals. Fans can try to rationalize this or that all day long. Guess what? These guys went out and did it. On the ice, not on NHL2004. So it goes for every single NHL player...including #99.

This poster came to the "History" board hoping to avoid the silly hypotheticals one reads daily on the other boards, care of the new Fantasy League generation of hockey fan. Oh well, so much for that.

***

I think someone ought to start a new thread/poll:

"Did Gretzky benefit from a ridiculous amount of talent?"

(Answer: affirmative)


Last edited by Trottier: 05-05-2005 at 03:57 PM.
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05-05-2005, 01:49 PM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Guy's prime finished in 81 yet montreal failed to win a cup in the next 4 years. When Guy left, habs won but let's be honest two of the main reasons they won was due to two rookies. Claude Lemieux who scored 3 overtime goals and 23 points and Roy played like a god in net.
Rationalize all you want, you got caught in a lie. The Habs did indeed win CupS without Lafleur.

Furthermore, how is that any different than Ranford and Tik carrying the Oilers to their ONLY non-Gretzky Cup?

Quote:
Originally Posted by K10
Guy was a good scorer? Are you kidding me? Who has more consecutive 6 50 goal seasons? Only two players and thats Bossy and Gretzky. In Guy's prime statistically (a thing you love) only 4 guys come so close. Orr, Lemieux, Gretzky and Esposito. Wayne was a great scorer but sorry Lafleur was a great scorer too,
If Gretzky is just great, then Lafleur is only good. Gretzky outpaces everyone by a WIDE margin. BY ANY MEASUREMENT. Per game. Per season. Overall career. It is a clean sweep of the boards. That is why he is indeed known as 'the GREATEST'.

In Gretzky's prime statistically, NOBODY comes close. Put Gretzky's prime years next to ANYBODY's prime years and it isn't even close.

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05-05-2005, 02:02 PM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
For the life of me have never understood the utterly bizarre logic that a player should be "penalized" or downgraded because he happened to play on a great team. Totally illogic.

As in: "Put Martin Brodeur on a lousy team and let's see him win Cups and Vezinas! So there!!"

And here, suggesting that #99 played with great players, so....

Both Gretzky and Lafleur played on indisputably great teams. Guess what? They were both the best players on those great teams! That is a TRIBUTE to their respective greatness, not a detraction in any way whatsoever! Sorry, the mere implication that either of these guys did it with strings, smoke and mirrors, or because of luck, superior ice, less smoking, inferior competition, better driving habits, bodyguards, better teammates, playing in an "inferior era," etc. is petty, petty, petty.

Ultimately, you are left with results/production. Not just numbers, though #99's are so ridiculously superior to any mere mortals that they cannot be ignored. In the end, you are what the record books say you are (and what followers of the sport remember about you, from first-hand VIEWING experience) both from an individual and team accomplishment perspective.

What's then left is for the chronic detractors to futily attempt to debunk players' achievements. Is Dino Cicarelli "really" a 600 goal scorer? You bet he is. Same with Mike Gartner and his 700+ goals. Fans can try to rationalize this or that all day long. Guess what? These guys went out and did it. On the ice, not on NHL2004. So it goes for every single NHL player...including #99.

This poster came to the "History" board hoping to avoid the silly hypotheticals one reads daily on the other boards, care of the new Fantasy League generation of hockey fan. Oh well, so much for that.

***

I think someone ought to start a new thread/poll:

"Did Gretzky benefit from a ridiculous amount of talent?"

(Answer: affirmative)
This reply should pretty much end any questions regarding Gretzky's greatness.

Good Job Trottier!!

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05-05-2005, 02:35 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
For the life of me have never understood the utterly bizarre logic that a player should be "penalized" or downgraded because he happened to play on a great team. Totally illogic.

As in: "Put Martin Brodeur on a lousy team and let's see him win Cups and Vezinas! So there!!"

And here, suggesting that #99 played with great players, so....

Both Gretzky and Lafleur played on indisputably great teams. Guess what? They were both the best players on those great teams! That is a TRIBUTE to their respective greatness, not a detraction in any way whatsoever! Sorry, the mere implication that either of these guys did it with strings, smoke and mirrors, or because of luck, superior ice, less smoking, inferior competition, better driving habits, bodyguards, better teammates, playing in an "inferior era," etc. is petty, petty, petty.

Ultimately, you are left with results/production. Not just numbers, though #99's are so ridiculously superior to any mere mortals that they cannot be ignored. In the end, you are what the record books say you are (and what followers of the sport remember about you, from first-hand VIEWING experience) both from an individual and team accomplishment perspective.

What's then left is for the chronic detractors to futily attempt to debunk players' achievements. Is Dino Cicarelli "really" a 600 goal scorer? You bet he is. Same with Mike Gartner and his 700+ goals. Fans can try to rationalize this or that all day long. Guess what? These guys went out and did it. On the ice, not on NHL2004. So it goes for every single NHL player...including #99.

This poster came to the "History" board hoping to avoid the silly hypotheticals one reads daily on the other boards, care of the new Fantasy League generation of hockey fan. Oh well, so much for that.

***

I think someone ought to start a new thread/poll:

"Did Gretzky benefit from a ridiculous amount of talent?"

(Answer: affirmative)
Wow, there it is. Amazing post Trotts.

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05-06-2005, 06:41 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by gr8haluschak
I am still waiting for a reason that the Smythe was so weak - If the Calgary Flames were in the Wales it would be an Oilers Flames cup for atleast 6 years in a row
In the eyes of many observers, those Oilers-Flames matchups were the real championship.

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05-06-2005, 06:49 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Badger Bob
In the eyes of many observers, those Oilers-Flames matchups were the real championship.
Calgary didn' really become a great team until about 88-89. Even in 86, the Steve Smith year, the Oilers outpointed the Flames by 30.

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05-06-2005, 07:51 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Calgary didn' really become a great team until about 88-89.
The pieces were starting to fall into place, and they were definitely respected by their opponents throughout the mid-late 80's.

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nhl...calflames.html

Conference Finals: (4)
1981, 1986, 1989, 2004

President's Trophy: (2)
1988, 1989

Division Champions: (5)
1988, 1989, 1990, 1994, 1995

Playoff Appearences: (16)
1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2004

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Even in 86, the Steve Smith year, the Oilers outpointed the Flames by 30.
With, or without, the Steve Smith dump-in, the Flames earned everything that they achieved in the '86 playoffs. So what if the Oiles outpointed them? It's what happens at crunch time that counts. Teams with losing records, Vancouver and Minnesota, have made the Finals.

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05-06-2005, 08:40 AM
  #171
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In the eyes of Flames fans, beating Edmonton at anything is their championship. I've lived in Cowtown and can attest to this fact. Edmonton sports fans have only wanted Cups. I remember watching them as a kid and only wanting Cups, nothing less!

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05-06-2005, 08:49 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Hootchie Cootchie
Edmonton sports fans have only wanted Cups.
The standards have since changed. Just qualifying for the playoffs is a major accomplishment now. Getting out of the first round is really too much to hope for...

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05-06-2005, 11:37 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Hootchie Cootchie
In the eyes of Flames fans, beating Edmonton at anything is their championship. I've lived in Cowtown and can attest to this fact. Edmonton sports fans have only wanted Cups. I remember watching them as a kid and only wanting Cups, nothing less!
good point. last year's playoff run was so hollow without beating the Oilers

in the 80s sure Oilers fans only wanted Cups. who can blame them? the Oilers were one of the strongest teams of all time. the Flames aspired to beat them, and eventually very briefly became top dogs themselves

but are you saying that , right now, 2005, an Oiler fan is only happy with a cup, but a Flames fan drools with delight simply over beating the Oilers

Oiler fans wouldn't have been happy with a run to the finals?

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05-06-2005, 11:42 AM
  #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Calgary didn' really become a great team until about 88-89. Even in 86, the Steve Smith year, the Oilers outpointed the Flames by 30.
well for the four years prior to 88-89 they were 5th, 6th, 3rd and 1st overall in the league. I would wager over those 4 seasons they were probably 3 or 4th in combined points (they'd be behind EDM and PHI for sure I would guess) so they were pretty good.

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05-06-2005, 05:15 PM
  #175
Trottier
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 29,236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Bob
In the eyes of many observers, those Oilers-Flames matchups were the real championship.
Not sure I'd go that far, but without doubt those mid-late 80s Flames/Oilers series were the most intense brand of hockey this fan has ever watched. Will never forget Messier nearly putting a Flame's dman through the glass on an icing call...a good second, and several strides after the whistle was blown on the touch.

Nasty - in a good way - stuff! Talk about passion.

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