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Old
10-14-2010, 03:29 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Puckface Avery View Post
although i generally don't like giving the C to a D-Man
Interesting ... why is that?

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10-14-2010, 03:36 PM
  #27
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Mark Messier was a rare combination of speed,toughness and SKILL. Messier was a LWer who made the successful switch to center. Not many players have been able to go from the wing to the middle. Ask Bobby Ryan. Many players have made the switch to wing after being a center for their entire career. Adam Graves is one example. Messier would go through you,around you or just break your face.



No skill

1984 Conn Smythe winner. That goal sunk the Islanders dynasty.

Eric Lindros was more brute strength than skill but he had a high skill level.

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Old
10-14-2010, 03:46 PM
  #28
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Highly doubtful....Cally is not captain material.....he is A material.

Stepan is certainly a potential future captain.....I think the other possibilities are Dubi and possibly Staal although i generally don't like giving the C to a D-Man
Really? I totally disagree. What about him do you think indicates that he isn't captain material? What about Dubi or Staal makes you think they are?

This article was pretty good, except for the overuse of "Mr. Stepan." I thought it was particularly cool to hear some of the stories about the way he's evolved as a player and also a hockey mind over the years. I think he's going to be a great playmaker in this league when he gets more acclimated. It seems almost ingrained in him.

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10-14-2010, 04:08 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
Really? I totally disagree. What about him do you think indicates that he isn't captain material? What about Dubi or Staal makes you think they are?

This article was pretty good, except for the overuse of "Mr. Stepan." I thought it was particularly cool to hear some of the stories about the way he's evolved as a player and also a hockey mind over the years. I think he's going to be a great playmaker in this league when he gets more acclimated. It seems almost ingrained in him.

In my opinion....a third liner should not be your captain. he should be somone who is not only vocal but can lead your team on the ice. Cally is a great role player but will never be the heart of this team...like it or not

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10-14-2010, 04:25 PM
  #30
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Wall Street Journal does that for everything. It was just as bad referring to Mr. Chamberlian in an article the other day about how Joba is worthless now.
Yes. I would say that a real newspaper does that but the Times does it too.

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10-14-2010, 05:01 PM
  #31
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In my opinion....a third liner should not be your captain. he should be somone who is not only vocal but can lead your team on the ice. Cally is a great role player but will never be the heart of this team...like it or not
I'm sorry, but are you drunk? Have you ever seen him play? He is the ONLY ranger who consistently leaves it all on the ice. We're talking about a guy who is 5'11 and throws checks at Chara fearlessly. Multiple time Steven McDonald award winner. He is the the heart of ANY team playing like that.

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Old
10-14-2010, 05:39 PM
  #32
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I'm sorry, but are you drunk? Have you ever seen him play? He is the ONLY ranger who consistently leaves it all on the ice. We're talking about a guy who is 5'11 and throws checks at Chara fearlessly. Multiple time Steven McDonald award winner. He is the the heart of ANY team playing like that.

While all that may be true, when was the last time a team won the Stanley Cup with a captain of similar overall ability/contribution to Callahan? I was a bit surprised myself to see that it seems virtually unheard of.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=483801

In the last decade, the only team with a captain whose contributions were even SIMILAR to Callahan's would be Dave Andreychuk, and I don't think you can really say that the two are ultimately comparable.

Carbonneau? Similar in offensive output, but a Selke-winning center is certainly more important than a checking winger (and again, I don't think you can ultimately say that Callahan is comparable to him in contribution).


I absolutely LOVE Cally, but have doubts that he's gonna captain us to the Cup.

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10-14-2010, 06:03 PM
  #33
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Wow. 2 Dave Andreychuk references in the same thread.

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10-14-2010, 06:21 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Puckface Avery View Post
In my opinion....a third liner should not be your captain. he should be somone who is not only vocal but can lead your team on the ice. Cally is a great role player but will never be the heart of this team...like it or not
Difference of opinion, I guess. I don't get how/why you think Dubi or Staal are more vocal than Callahan is. Dubi talks about as much and Staal is pretty silent overall. As far as leading on the ice, I can't think of one player on this team who sets a better example with their game. Gaborik and Hank are no doubt better at their respective positions, but they have a wealth of god-given talent whereas Callahan is just outworking the competition night in and night out.

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10-14-2010, 06:43 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
You become the second highest scoring player because you play a long time and compile points. But that's not an indication of skill. And I'm not saying that Messier wasn't skilled I'm saying compared to some of his contemporaries, he wasn't the most skillful guy.
I agree with you SBOB, anyone who watched Mark Messier through his career knows everything he did, he did with hard work.

Before I used the word skillful to describe Messier, I would use the words, Determined, Ferocious, Intimidating and Clutch.

Could he make a pretty pass? sure he could, but I often found his passes didn't need much finesse because they were coming from the right place at the right time, because he got himself there.
Although Messier could beat you with skill, he rarely had to, he usually just outworked you.

I guess some people can't see the clear cut difference between skill guys like Gretzky, Jagr, Bure and fierce competitors like Messier, Gilmour, Clark, Graves.

I'm not saying skill or ferocity was limited to either group, but one just happened to be the weapon of choice for each group.

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10-14-2010, 07:09 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by FOXHOUND View Post
I'm sorry, but are you drunk? Have you ever seen him play? He is the ONLY ranger who consistently leaves it all on the ice. We're talking about a guy who is 5'11 and throws checks at Chara fearlessly. Multiple time Steven McDonald award winner. He is the the heart of ANY team playing like that.
No i am not DRUNK. Cally is a 20 goal scorer who will put up 40 points consistently. He is not captain material....agree to disagree if you want to. Sandy McCarthy also won the Steven McDonald Award multiple times does that warrant him to be captain?

I understand that you hold Cally in high regards and so do I, he is a necessary player to have on a successful team and I do think he is a good player, that i respect for always giving his all. The thing is he cannot lead by example because he is simply not talented enough.

Like it or not, Cally will be nothing more than an above average third liner throughout his career. This isnt a negative thing its just what he is. Some guys come in the league and just have raw talent like Gaborik. Other guys don't have that kind of talent but have an above average work ethic like Cally.

Again a great guy to have on your team but at the same time he is not the heart of this team. IMO the heart of the team this year is Gabby and henrik. Cally is more soul....if you can grasp what im saying.

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Old
10-14-2010, 07:12 PM
  #37
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You can dipsy doodle all you want.

Having a high hockey IQ is the greatest skill of all. There are arguably a handfull of guys who had more of both then Messier. Andrychuk was one of the best garbage goal players of all time, Messier didnt beat you in the crease as much as with his shot and deft passing.

Plenty of dipsy doodlers never got close to Messiers point totals & longevity had nothing to do with it becasue Messier was a shell of himself from 97-04. Alot of you apparently dont remember the right top corner bullet he had from the circle. That was as skilled a shot as I have ever witnessed.

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10-14-2010, 07:28 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueCollarBlueBlood View Post
You can dipsy doodle all you want.

Having a high hockey IQ is the greatest skill of all. There are arguably a handfull of guys who had more of both then Messier. Andrychuk was one of the best garbage goal players of all time, Messier didnt beat you in the crease as much as with his shot and deft passing.

Plenty of dipsy doodlers never got close to Messiers point totals & longevity had nothing to do with it becasue Messier was a shell of himself from 97-04. Alot of you apparently dont remember the right top corner bullet he had from the circle. That was as skilled a shot as I have ever witnessed.
But no one is saying Messier wasn't incredibly skilled, were just saying it wasn't what he was known for.

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10-14-2010, 08:24 PM
  #39
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I've never understood how people can talk about a player and how they were able to know where/when/how to pass, when to be where, how to deal with all sorts of opposing players and play styles, but in the same breath say they weren't "the most skilled." No one else thinks that playing smart equates to skill?

What do you guys regard as skill? The ability to be a sniper? To be a finesse/speed player? Would you guys say Ovechkin is a more skilled player than Messier or they are essentially the same type of player?

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Old
10-14-2010, 09:16 PM
  #40
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Callahan's social leadership abilities aren't at the level Stepans' is/will be. The fact that Stepan is much more skilled than Callahan puts him over the top even more.

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10-14-2010, 09:17 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by BlueCollarBlueBlood View Post
You can dipsy doodle all you want.

Having a high hockey IQ is the greatest skill of all. There are arguably a handfull of guys who had more of both then Messier. Andrychuk was one of the best garbage goal players of all time, Messier didnt beat you in the crease as much as with his shot and deft passing.

Plenty of dipsy doodlers never got close to Messiers point totals & longevity had nothing to do with it becasue Messier was a shell of himself from 97-04. Alot of you apparently dont remember the right top corner bullet he had from the circle. That was as skilled a shot as I have ever witnessed.
How can you forget that back leg pump and the far side wrist shot.

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Old
10-15-2010, 12:58 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I don't see what he said wrong. Messier was not one of the most skilled players of his generation.

With all due respect could not be further from the truth. Definitely one of the top 10-15 players of all time for me.

Been a fan of the sport for more then 3 decades so I have seen enough come and go. He had it all. skill, talent, determination, leadership.

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10-15-2010, 06:45 AM
  #43
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With all due respect could not be further from the truth. Definitely one of the top 10-15 players of all time for me.

Been a fan of the sport for more then 3 decades so I have seen enough come and go. He had it all. skill, talent, determination, leadership.
I can't believe that what I said is being so misconstrued.

He is one of the 10-15 players of all time (I probably say top 10). He is a great player. OK. Got that part?

Now, he was not one of the most skillful players of his time. He was not as skilled as Gretzky, Yzerman, Mario, Jagr, Federov, Bure, Kurri, Selanne and others. But you know what? I take him ahead of all those guys save Gretz and Lemieux . Why is what I said so hard to understand?

He wasn't the most skilled guy on those Oiler teams. He wasn't as skilled as Gretzky, Coffey or Kurri.

He wasn't the most skilled guy on the 94 Rangers. He didn't have the skills that Leetch, Zubov or Kovalev had.

Again, it's not a knock on Messier. If anything it's a compliment. One last time. Messier was not as skillful as Alex Daigle. He sure as hell was a better hockey player and the guy I'd rather have on my team.

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10-15-2010, 07:06 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I can't believe that what I said is being so misconstrued.

He is one of the 10-15 players of all time. He is a great player. OK. Got that part?

Now, he was not one of the most skillful players of his time. He was not as skilled as Gretzky, Yzerman, Mario, Jagr, Federov, Bure, Kurri, Selanne and others. But you know what? I take him ahead of all those guys save Gretz and Lemieux . Why is what I said so hard to understand?

He wasn't the most skilled guy on those Oiler teams. He wasn't as skilled as Gretzky, Coffey or Kurri.

He wasn't the most skilled guy on the 94 Rangers. He didn't have the skills that Leetch, Zubov or Kovalev had.

Again, it's not a knock on Messier. If anything it's a compliment.
You're lucky you edited out your Daigle comparison. Lol. I was just going to reply to it.

I think it's pretty clear that there is a people are having a problem with the way you're describing "skill".

Messier was one of the most "skilled" ever. His position in the hockey universe and his career stats bear that out. Whether he was tough has no bearing on his skillset. He was a phenomenal hockey player. The implication is his hockey skillset was phenomenal.

Whether he was a "finesse player" like the guys you're mentioning is not even up to debate: he wasn't.

So: if you're saying "skill" = "finesse" then your point is well taken, though Messier had great great hands and showed them all the time. If you're saying the word "skill" = "ability to play hockey" then Messier was one of the most skilled ever.

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10-15-2010, 07:07 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
One last time. Messier was not as skillful as Alex Daigle. He sure as hell was a better hockey player and the guy I'd rather have on my team.
Weird. Here's the Daigle comment...

I would say he was infinitely more skillfull than Daigle. My god. Daigle didn't have the "skill" to play seriously. That's where it all begins.

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10-15-2010, 07:09 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by BobSantos View Post
Weird. Here's the Daigle comment...

I would say he was infinitely more skillfull than Daigle. My god. Daigle didn't have the "skill" to play seriously. That's where it all begins.
No. Daigle didn't have the heart, desire or competitiveness to play seriously. And that's what Mess had in spades.

I took the Daigle line out because it was redudant. I stand by what I said.

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10-15-2010, 07:23 AM
  #47
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Ok, this brought tears to my eyes, I have to say.

I had forgotten how damn fast Messier was...

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/con...tid=0&id=17736

So, I guess while the WSJ is looking for the new face of the franchise, it doesn't hurt to look back a bit.

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10-15-2010, 08:34 AM
  #48
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"Blue collar" skill, is still skill no?

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10-15-2010, 08:47 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Dave Andreychuk scored over 600 goals. Was he one of the most skilled player of his time? What about Mike Bossy? What about Kevin Stevens?
Mike Bossy? Are you kidding? Oh My God, Yes he was skilled. The best I have ever seen from 20 feet in. Unbelieveable hands, great shot and great balance. If he had stayed healthy there is no telling how many goals he would have scored.

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10-15-2010, 08:48 AM
  #50
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Mike Bossy? Are you kidding? Oh My God, Yes he was skilled. The best I have ever seen from 20 feet in. Unbelieveable hands, great shot and great balance. If he had stayed healthy there is no telling how many goals he would have scored.
He couldn't skate.

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