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Coyotes potentially returning to Winnipeg?!

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Old
10-15-2010, 10:04 AM
  #26
Habs83
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Originally Posted by Perfect_Gravity View Post
The NHL and the City will try to get a deal done and they likely will. Moving to Winnipeg is the if all else fails solution.

There is already a promising deal going on with a Chicago businessman trying to buy the team.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/feed...coyotes-suitor
Read post #1.

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Old
10-15-2010, 10:12 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
Don't get your hopes up though.

This is what, the third Winnipeg deadline? It's clearly the silver bullet the NHL is playing to ensure that someone pays them the 150m they want, but so far they've shown no willingness to actually pull the trigger.
True, but how long are they willing to burn money? I do remember hearing that at the start of the season they were going to look for an owner that was going to keep the team there, but if no owner was found they were going to relocate. From the looks of it, no real owners are stepping up to keep the team in Phoenix.

The fact they have a deal in place to move the team to the peg as a backup, should maybe indicate they're serious about actually moving them for once..

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Old
10-15-2010, 10:14 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Is the sitting capacity of the arena the real issue here? Quebec City, if I remember correctly, was almost always at full capacity and they lost their team.

I think the real issues are two: ancillary revenue streams & what's in store for the Canadian loonie vis a vis the greenback. NHL teams pay in American shekels.

Manitoba has a pop of 1.5, Saskatchewan .6, the northern territories maybe 100K if you count all the caribou buggered by lonely northerners and maybe you can add some western & northern ontarians who dislike the Toronto Make Believes and maybe you have a total audience of 2 - 2.5 mil at best. Is that enough to support a contending NHL team with a players' payroll of 60 mil + whatever else it takes to staff, manage and run the team which will be another 30-35 mil. So we're talking about an operating budget of 90-95 million?

15,000 * $150(average) = 2,250,000

2,250,000 * 41 (season games) = 92,250,000.

They better hope that all 2.5 million prospective viewers leave the caribou long enough to watch the telecast & buy the merchandise. And also that the loonie doesn't tumble too far behind the greenback.

I'd like Winnipeg to get a team but the numbers just don't crunch to a successful franchise.
A lot of the money made at NHL rinks is from concessions and especially luxury boxes by businesses. The average ticket price would probably be lower than $150, but if you have 100 luxury boxes bringing in $2,000 per game, that's over 8 mil, and those are sold before the season.

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Old
10-15-2010, 10:20 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
plus, less seats, less supply, higher prices.
Then why are all current-generation NHL arenas in the 20,000 range? I must admit I don't know all the financial details of why the Jets left Winnipeg. But I think you're shooting yourself in the foot already if you relocate a team to a 15,000-seat arena, in a market where it already failed once.

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Old
10-15-2010, 10:23 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Jedrik View Post
Then why are all current-generation NHL arenas in the 20,000 range? I must admit I don't know all the financial details of why the Jets left Winnipeg. But I think you're shooting yourself in the foot already if you relocate a team to a 15,000-seat arena, in a market where it already failed once.
20,000? Pittsburgh just built one of 18,000.

You are right, 18 or 20,000 has the potential to bring in more revenue -- however, less seats, less supply will still increase the value of each seat, thus narrowing the gap in revenue discretion between the 20 and 15.

Imagine what the price of tickets would be at the Bell if there were only 15,000 seats. Sure, the Habs will still make more money with 21,000, but there'd be a shift on avg ticket price which would soften the loss.

Lastly, the Canadian dollar isn't going back to it's past, not anytime soon. Currency exchange risk favors the Canadian teams if anything... plus you have a fan base that has suffered the loss of the jets-- support will be even bigger on all levels if they get them back.


Last edited by coolasprICE: 10-15-2010 at 10:29 AM.
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Old
10-15-2010, 10:31 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
20,000? Pittsburgh just built one of 18,000.

You are right, 18 or 20,000 has the potential to bring in more revenue -- however, less seats, less supply will still increase the value of each seat, thus narrowing the gap in revenue discretion between the 20 and 15.

Imagine what the price of tickets would be at the Bell if there were only 15,000 seats. Sure, the Habs will still make more money with 21,000, but there'd be a shift on avg ticket price which would soften the loss.

Lastly, the Canadian dollar isn't going back to it's past, not anytime soon. Currency exchange risk favors the Canadian teams if anything... plus you have a fan base that has suffered the loss of the jets-- support will be even bigger on all levels if they get them back.

Not to mention there's a belief that the dollar will stay above parity for the next 3 years


Last edited by Habs83: 10-15-2010 at 10:54 AM.
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Old
10-15-2010, 10:34 AM
  #32
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Not to mention there's rumours that the dollar will stay above parity for the next 3 years
Bad for the export

At least we will pay our import stuff cheaper.

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Old
10-15-2010, 10:40 AM
  #33
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it's bad for manufacturing too...

cheaper to buy from other places than make our own.

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Old
10-15-2010, 10:45 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Boris Le Tigre View Post
it's bad for manufacturing too...

cheaper to buy from other places than make our own.
Good for interest rates; should help to keep them down.. increase would boost the CDN dollar past the u.s, something the govt will avoid.

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Old
10-15-2010, 10:52 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Habs83 View Post
Not to mention there's a belief that the dollar will stay above parity for the next 3 years
EDIT: Not really a rumour, more a belief.

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Old
10-15-2010, 11:11 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
20,000? Pittsburgh just built one of 18,000.

You are right, 18 or 20,000 has the potential to bring in more revenue -- however, less seats, less supply will still increase the value of each seat, thus narrowing the gap in revenue discretion between the 20 and 15.

Imagine what the price of tickets would be at the Bell if there were only 15,000 seats. Sure, the Habs will still make more money with 21,000, but there'd be a shift on avg ticket price which would soften the loss.

Lastly, the Canadian dollar isn't going back to it's past, not anytime soon. Currency exchange risk favors the Canadian teams if anything... plus you have a fan base that has suffered the loss of the jets-- support will be even bigger on all levels if they get them back.
Fine, 18,000-plus let's say as more accurately a current standard. But that's in a market (Pittsburgh) that's recently re-established itself after appearing to be on the brink of relocation, won a cup, is an elite team, etc. Different scenario altogether than transplanting a team that didn't stick once already.

You'd also have to bank on every game being a sellout, just to be in the average (or above-average) range for the league. A lot of teams probably wind up with a 15,000 seat average of attendance over the year by enduring a few 13,000 showings during the week but packing in 20,000 on the weekend for a divisional rival. I mean I'm just speculating about actual figures, but you get what I mean.

As far as the less-seats-equals-higher-price tickets angle, that's really oversimplifiying it. Then why not just built a 2000-seat arena and charge a grand per ticket? Pricing fans out of the market is a dangerous game, IMO. Think about Habs (for example) having a ticket pricing structure of:

30$
50$
60$
75$
100$

And then now imagine that someone crossed out the first line and said "Here you go, ass##le. We're meeting demand. Simple economics."

I just think it's a bad idea.

The rationale is probably to build a new arena eventually, after getting settled in, I guess.

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Old
10-15-2010, 11:20 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Jedrik View Post

You'd also have to bank on every game being a sellout, just to be in the average (or above-average) range for the league.
Yes I would assume, and so would the prospective owners of Winnipeg when making their proposal.

Quote:
As far as the less-seats-equals-higher-price tickets angle, that's really oversimplifiying it.
Well, it's the truth. Less supply, higher prices. Simple economics.

I'm not suggesting we go to 2000 seat arenas, I am only saying, and read carefully, that by having less seats, you will have higher ticket prices, which softens the LOSS of having less seats. Capiche?

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Old
10-15-2010, 11:33 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Well, it's the truth. Less supply, higher prices. Simple economics.

I'm not suggesting we go to 2000 seat arenas, I am only saying, and read carefully, that by having less seats, you will have higher ticket prices, which softens the LOSS of having less seats. Capiche?
Believe it or not -- and this is going to blow your mind -- people can understand well-constructed arguments without condescension.

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Old
10-15-2010, 11:38 AM
  #39
coolasprICE
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Originally Posted by Jedrik View Post
Believe it or not -- and this is going to blow your mind -- people can understand well-constructed arguments without condescension.
sorry dude if it came across like that, no harm intended..

just that I wanted to be blunt because I was repeating my very basic point.

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Old
10-15-2010, 11:46 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by PunkinDrublic View Post
Winnipeg ! Yuk, Canada's ugliest city after Edmonton ! The Winnipeg Coyotes Hahaha, more like the Winnipeg Polar Bears !
I don't think a team can be successful because of this. Seriously how many FA's has Edmonton been able to attract? Nylander who isn't even a top tier FA balked at them. They were only able to get Khabby because he didn't want to go to Russia like what's his name did this year.

Winnipeg will have an even harder time attracting FA's than Edmonton. Have you ever been to the peg?

Secondly, as for the supply and demand thing, having more expensive seats. Have you ever been to Winnipeg? They don't have the rich people that Toronto/Montreal/Calgary in masses etc... to support high ticket prices.

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Old
10-15-2010, 11:48 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
sorry dude if it came across like that, no harm intended..

just that I wanted to be blunt because I was repeating my very basic point.
No worries, gotcha..

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Old
10-15-2010, 11:51 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
I don't think a team can be successful because of this. Seriously how many FA's has Edmonton been able to attract? Nylander who isn't even a top tier FA balked at them. They were only able to get Khabby because he didn't want to go to Russia like what's his name did this year.

Winnipeg will have an even harder time attracting FA's than Edmonton. Have you ever been to the peg?

Secondly, as for the supply and demand thing, having more expensive seats. Have you ever been to Winnipeg? They don't have the rich people that Toronto/Montreal/Calgary in masses etc... to support high ticket prices.
Winnipeg has the most millionaries per capita in the country.

however I wont disagree with the UFA comment.
I could see this being an issue

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Old
10-15-2010, 11:55 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
I don't think a team can be successful because of this. Seriously how many FA's has Edmonton been able to attract?
And guess where those FA want to sign a lot of the time ? With teams that ironically can't even afford them, such as Phoenix, Florida, Tampa, Atlanta.

The only other option is to allow all these southern teams to fold and fail on their own.

Perhaps at that point teams like Edmonton will have an easier time to attract players.

Bottom line, a city with a population of 1 million or more in Canada will be able to support an NHL team better than a population of 5 Million that has close to zero interest in the sport. Yes, it's as simple as that.

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Old
10-15-2010, 12:13 PM
  #44
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So I guess having a debt free, tax free, and self sustaining facility (horrible facility last time), along with an owner with cash (didn't have last time), and revenue sharing along currency equalization (also not existing before) leans toward Winnipeg struggling?
This has been debated to death on the boards-business of hockey section-Winnipeg is more than viable now with a smaller population base than Phoenix but a greater hockey fan base in relation to the arena size.
As far as living here, nice and quiet. Not fantastic, but not crappy either. Actually one of the better places to raise a family. I have been to New York, Toronto, Edmonton, Calgary, Regina, Vancouver, Minneapolis....Denver, Seoul, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Rome, Zurich, but these are not relevant. Couldn't wait to come home.
Should I also mention that Winnipeg's economy faired much much better than the other cities in the recession, and also have quite a few coporate head offices (Macleans business-I believe).
Phoenix is a failure, just admit it & cut your losses.


Last edited by habsfan92: 10-15-2010 at 06:25 PM.
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Old
10-15-2010, 12:21 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
They need to just suck it up and realize they picked a piss poor market and move the team back to where it belongs.

I mean was Winnipeg ever that bad in terms of filling the stands as Phoenix is now?

Plus I bet the people of Manitoba never allow their Jets to move ever again and will be far more supportive of the team if it's brought back.

I can see it selling out the first couple seasons.
It wasn't the fans who let the team go, back than the Canadian dollar was no where near where it is now. Plus the building was well below NHL standards now a days. The fans sold that place out. They just lost huge amounts of money cause of revenue streams and the cost of currency exchange between the Canadian and American dollar. Add in the fact you had a commissioner who had a hunger for American Expansion he took that team out of Winnipeg faster than you could say Jets. I wish Gary fought as hard to keep the team in Winnipeg as much he's trying to keep the team in Phoenix. The team needs to be back where it shouldn't have left.

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Old
10-15-2010, 12:28 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Winnipeg will have an even harder time attracting FA's than Edmonton. Have you ever been to the peg?
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Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
I wont disagree with the UFA comment.
I could see this being an issue
A good young core with a promising future and more comparable dollar to the US would relieve a lot of that problem. For a while we couldn't get UFA to speak to us unless it was for leverage with another team, and then suddenly the sun came up and people wanted to sign here.

I'm sure a lot of Canadian and European players are happy to live in cold, Canadian cities. The Pronger's Wife factor is a killer, though.

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Old
10-15-2010, 02:01 PM
  #47
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I hope they end up back in Winnipeg where they belong and change their name back to the Jets. If they are able to get a good owner with some money and the Salary Caps doesn't disappear, a team in Winnipeg would definitely work. The fans are awesome, they would sell the arena out every game for sure.

Now all we have to do is move a team like Atlanta, Nashville or one of the Florida teams to Quebec and we'll be all set. There is absolutely no reason why those 2 cities shouldn't have hockey teams!!

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Old
10-15-2010, 02:03 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by HalakRulz View Post
I hope they end up back in Winnipeg where they belong and change their name back to the Jets. If they are able to get a good owner with some money and the Salary Caps doesn't disappear, a team in Winnipeg would definitely work. The fans are awesome, they would sell the arena out every game for sure.

Now all we have to do is move a team like Atlanta, Nashville or one of the Florida teams to Quebec and we'll be all set. There is absolutely no reason why those 2 cities shouldn't have hockey teams!!
This is about the smartest thing you have ever typed on this board

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Old
10-15-2010, 03:12 PM
  #49
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the coyotes belong in Phoenix, and should stay the hell away from that pathetic excuse of a city named Winnipeg. They are only going to lose their franchise for a second time once the honeymoon is over and the reality of Winnipeg being a horrible city with no corporate support, no glamour, no economy (amongst other things such as the impossible task of attracting player) sinks in and we're back to square one.

I hate when these threads pop up because the delusional "bring a team back to Canada" crowd take any little bit of news as meaning "OMG THE TEAM IS COMING TO WINNIPEG" when the news article don't even mention that at all.

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Old
10-15-2010, 03:14 PM
  #50
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that would make sense, I guess.


still, I can't wait to see what will happen on Dec. 31.

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