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Old
10-16-2010, 09:30 PM
  #51
Jacob
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Looking at the players that become unrestricted this summer.. Rupp, Godard, Adams, Asham, Dupuis... The Penguins are going to have a LOT of bottom-6 spots to fill in. Kennedy and Talbot are RFAs and both fill such a role nicely, and are young.

Shero's good at finding bargains for those bottom 6 roles but an entire 4th line in one summer might be pretty tough to do.

So while they aren't untouchable, I just don't see either being moved.

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Old
10-16-2010, 09:44 PM
  #52
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Thru the 1st 6 games of the season, Kennedy has more points than 5 other forwards on the team. Kennedy is not our most prolific goal scorer, and neither are the other 5 forwards he has points over. But Kennedy works his arse off 90-100% of the time. He's a feisty little tiger and seems willing to stick up for others (remember the fight with Luke Schenn). Kennedy to me is a solid keeper at the price he's paid. And if this whole "Moving Malkin to wing" doesn't work out and ends up being our 2nd line center again, we need our 3rd line to be intact. Cooke-Staal-Kennedy.

I'm all for keeping Kennedy. Not to mention he scored the 1st Penguins goal at CEC

Kennedy (1G,1A)
Rupp, Comrie, Talbot, Adams, and Godard all have 1 point a peice, and only Adams has fewer PIM. Kennedy has a higher +/- as well.

Yeah I know, it's only been 6 games.

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Old
10-16-2010, 09:50 PM
  #53
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Keep the one on the right, get rid of the one on the left, and give the one in the center a key to the city.

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10-16-2010, 10:01 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geno View Post
Big fan of Talbot so its hard for me to say that we no longer need this guy, but when Staal and Asham return...where do these two fit into the lineup?

Letestu has already proved he is more useful than either of them. Tangradi has been solid on the 2nd line giving us a big body that can stand in front of the net...something we haven't had since Malone or Roberts.

So, where do Talbot and Kennedy fit in? Its not like Bylsma is actually going to stop playing Adams.

If we were to dump these two guys...we'd clear up roughly 2.1 million dollars in cap space.

What do you guys think? Do we need either of them anymore?
New to hocket, eh?

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10-16-2010, 10:23 PM
  #55
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New to hocket, eh?
New to spelling, eh?

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10-16-2010, 10:28 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Geno View Post
Yeah. You're right. I'm glad you are keeping tabs on me and know when I am and when I'm not watching games. Thanks for being such a great friend.

I've watched every game this season. Kennedy hasn't done jack all.

Answer this...what exactly has he done to earn the status "one of our best forwards"

Since you apparently watch all the games and I watch none...maybe you could enlighten me?
How about wreak havoc and create scoring chances just about every time on the ice? He has to shoot because NO ONE ELSE ON THIS TEAM wants to. He plays an aggressive style and has more speed than our other forwards. He worked hard this off season and his reward is less playing time than most other forwards. Let's put him on Line #1 in place of Dupuis and have this same conversation later.

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10-16-2010, 10:51 PM
  #57
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New to spelling, eh?
u dam iight i am breh

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Old
10-17-2010, 01:23 AM
  #58
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This thread has "epic FAIL" written all over it. TK has easily been one of our better forwards thus far. His numbers may not reflect it, but he's been working his arse off on every single shift, and has actually made some really good decisions with the puck. No problems whatsoever with how he's been looking, and if anything, his work ethic should be exemplary to the rest of our forwards.

Oh, and by the way, if you're gonna call him out for his offensive production, then what are you gonna say abuot guys like Geno and Sid (before tonight's game that is)?

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10-17-2010, 01:36 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Geno View Post
Am I suppose to be impressed by his 2 points in 6 games?

Have YOU seen him play any other games this season or last season?

Does he deserve to play over Letestu? No. Does he deserve to play over Adams? Yes. Will he? No.

He might as well start packing his bags when Staal returns.
I know I'm late on this, but yes, I've watched every game. And I stand with what I said. Kennedy has been good this season.

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10-17-2010, 02:03 AM
  #60
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Talbot has basically done the most of any grinder to make himself untouchable, just for the fact that he's extremely popular, and scored 2 friggin goals in the SCF game seven. That's enough for me to give him a free pass. He always brings it in the playoffs, he did last year too.

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Old
10-17-2010, 07:40 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by AugustBurnsRed View Post
Talbot has basically done the most of any grinder to make himself untouchable, just for the fact that he's extremely popular, and scored 2 friggin goals in the SCF game seven. That's enough for me to give him a free pass. He always brings it in the playoffs, he did last year too.
I know man, I was going to say the same thing. Even if Talbot is the most expendable, how can you get rid of that freakin' guy? He basically won game 7 of the SCF for us.

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10-17-2010, 08:50 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Geno View Post
In all honesty, are you related to Kennedy or something? You're defending him like he's your own child.

What gives? You can't even supply evidence and thus your point is completely lost. Whatever.
No, but when someone creates a thread on ignorance, I tend to defend the player.

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Originally Posted by JimLahey89 View Post
I'm sorry but "you clearly don't watch the games" might be the worst argument I've ever heard.
It's really that simple. Anyone who has even casually watched the last 6 games would see Kennedy being one of our better forecheckers, his line sustaining a cycle, his line being able to bottle the opposition up, they are getting scoring chances, he's forcing turnovers, and he is personally drawing penalties. The guy has drawn as many penalties as any player on this roster, I believe.

I could understand in the beginning of the season how people thought he was on the bubble. How people think that now though is just beyond me. No he doesn't have the stats, but neither do our 2 superstars. Adams, Talbot, Rupp, and Dupuis have their roster spots way more in doubt than Kennedy, IMO

Creating a thread citing stats as if it's the be all end all shows that you watch the game but have no idea what you're talking about, or you don't watch the game. Either way doesn't bode well for credibility when making such claims.

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Old
10-17-2010, 10:12 AM
  #63
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Skipped most of the posts because I know what lurks there but yes, both are expendable in the sense that neither guy would be terribly missed if they were traded, other than in the locker room maybe. And they're not the only ones.

As I watched TK the last couple games, I noticed a repeating pattern (that I've seen before) and wondered how anyone who watches that pattern can arrive at the conclusion that he's anything special. In transition, he receives the puck around center ice, skates up the right boards as fast as he can, and when he gets into the zone, he either rips a wild slapshot at the net or plays the puck around the boards, or across ice if it's open. Then he goes flying to the boards and tries to cycle the puck (often getting pushed around) or waits by the right goal post for a slap in. How often do those slap-ins or wild shots actually hit twine? Once every 6 or 7 games (of him doing it all game long)? This is literally his entire offensive game most of the time. He is so predictable it is almost comical. And no doubt, this is partly Bylsma's brain-child for "getting to our game 70% of the time in the other zone", so not all TK, but still.

On D transition he IS a good pest and can disrupt things because of his speed but I'm sorry... there are 5 guys on every team (if you include their AHL and regular roster) who can do approximately what TK does every game. He is an ordinary, speedy grinder with a good work ethic and more willingness to shoot the puck than most grinders. In no way is this a guy with hidden, untapped potential as some predict / theorize. He just isn't.

Sorry guys, we all need to move on. If he stays, great. If he doesn't stay, great. We can easily win without him and about 4 other guys on this team (yes, including Dupuis).


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Old
10-17-2010, 10:22 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Malkochalek View Post
Skipped most of the posts because I know what lurks there but yes, both are expendable in the sense that neither guy would be terribly missed if they were traded, other than in the locker room maybe. And they're not the only ones.

As I watched TK the last couple games, I noticed a repeating pattern (that I've seen before) and wondered how anyone who watches that pattern can arrive at the conclusion that he's anything special. In transition, he receives the puck around center ice, skates up the right boards as fast as he can, and when he gets into the zone, he either rips a wild slapshot at the net or plays the puck around the boards, or across ice if it's open. Then he goes flying to the boards and tries to cycle the puck or waits by the right goal post for a slap in. How often do those slap-ins or wild shots actually hit twine? Once every 6 or 7 games (of him doing it all game long)? This is literally his entire offensive game most of the time. He is so predictable it is almost comical. And no doubt, this is partly Bylsma's brain-child for "getting to our game 70% of the time in the other zone", so not all TK, but still.

On D transition he IS a good pest and can disrupt things because of his speed but I'm sorry... there are 5 guys on every team (if you include their AHL and regular roster) who can do approximately what TK does every game. He is an ordinary, speedy grinder with a good work ethic and more willingness to shoot the puck than most grinders. In no way is this a guy with hidden, untapped potential as some predict / theorize. He just isn't.

Sorry guys, we all need to move on. If he stays, great. If he doesn't stay, great. We can easily win without him and about 4 other guys on this team (yes, including Dupuis).
No one here ever claimed that he was anything "special". What we are saying though is that he's a good player in his own right, especially when filling in a 3rd line role, or occassional minutes on the top 6. He works hard, has great speed, decent hands, and his overall hockey IQ seems to be improving with age in my opinion. If he stays healthy, I can see him blooming into a 40 point guy.

Anyways, I wouldn't be heartbroken if Talbot were to leave. As much as I love the guy's character, I really don't think he's worth the million dollar salary that we're paying him. I think we can easily fill his spot with a cheaper alternative from WBS. Also, with the emergence of Letestu as a solid player, I think that Talbot has become even more expendable.

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Old
10-17-2010, 10:27 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcquaticBirdMan66 View Post
No one here ever claimed that he was anything "special". What we are saying though is that he's a good player in his own right, especially when filling in a 3rd line role, or occassional minutes on the top 6. He works hard, has great speed, decent hands, and his overall hockey IQ seems to be improving with age in my opinion. If he stays healthy, I can see him blooming into a 40 point guy.

Anyways, I wouldn't be heartbroken if Talbot were to leave. As much as I love the guy's character, I really don't think he's worth the million dollar salary that we're paying him. I think we can easily fill his spot with a cheaper alternative from WBS. Also, with the emergence of Letestu as a solid player, I think that Talbot has become even more expendable.

Yah I hear what you're saying and mostly agree (not sure I agree about "decent" hands; I think his scoring touch is middle of the road, IQ too), but you're sort of making my point. I think you're elevating him over a lot of other players around the league who also have good speed, work hard and have pretty much the same skillset. He's just an ordinary, decent hockey player, and an undersized one at that.

Agree about Talbot. Basically, Dupuis, TK, Talbot, Adams, Rupp are all easily replaced.

The next echelon up in terms of harder to replace because they're really good at what they do most of the time / when not hurt: Kunitz, Cooke, (probably) Asham (when he gets healthy).

Then beyond that you really have to start thinking about who you trade because of current value or big upside and/or inexpensive (Tangradi, Letestu, Staal, etc)

Comrie *should* be on these lists but we're so frickin thin he can't be for now.

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10-17-2010, 10:27 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by AcquaticBirdMan66 View Post
No one here ever claimed that he was anything "special". What we are saying though is that he's a good player in his own right, especially when filling in a 3rd line role, or occassional minutes on the top 6. He works hard, has great speed, decent hands, and his overall hockey IQ seems to be improving with age in my opinion. If he stays healthy, I can see him blooming into a 40 point guy.

Anyways, I wouldn't be heartbroken if Talbot were to leave. As much as I love the guy's character, I really don't think he's worth the million dollar salary that we're paying him. I think we can easily fill his spot with a cheaper alternative from WBS. Also, with the emergence of Letestu as a solid player, I think that Talbot has become even more expendable.
+1. I feel the same way.

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10-17-2010, 10:42 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Malkochalek View Post
Yah I hear what you're saying and mostly agree (not sure I agree about "decent" hands; I think his scoring touch is middle of the road, IQ too), but you're sort of making my point. I think you're elevating him over a lot of other players around the league who also have good speed, work hard and have pretty much the same skillset. He's just an ordinary, decent hockey player, and an undersized one at that.

Agree about Talbot. Basically, Dupuis, TK, Talbot, Adams, Rupp are all easily replaced.

The next echelon up in terms of harder to replace because they're really good at what they do most of the time / when not hurt: Kunitz, Cooke, (probably) Asham (when he gets healthy).

Then beyond that you really have to start thinking about who you trade because of current value or big upside and/or inexpensive (Tangradi, Letestu, Staal, etc)

Comrie *should* be on these lists but we're so frickin thin he can't be for now.
I'm not elevating him above a lot of other players in this league either. Keep in mind though that we don't exactly have the liberty to just go out and pick up any other player of superior quality. TK is already a Pens player, and as far as good bottom sixers are concerned, I think he's one of the better ones in the league, and he has the ability to only get BETTER. Everyone loves how good our 3rd line has been for us over the last couple of years, but I think a lot of people tend to underestimate just how important TK has been in regards to the success of that line.

Personally, I think you might be underrating his skill-set just a tad. TK does have some pretty decent hands. Is he the second coming of Crosby or Malkin? Of course not! But he's not expected to be like those guys either now is he? Once again, if we are evaluating him purely in regards to being a 3rd liner who can fill in occassionally on the top 2 lines, I think TK is as good of a player as you can possibly ask for. All he really needs to do is stay healthy, and the results will come.

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10-17-2010, 10:49 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by AcquaticBirdMan66 View Post
I'm not elevating him above a lot of other players in this league either. Keep in mind though that we don't exactly have the liberty to just go out and pick up any other player of superior quality....

Personally, I think you might be underrating his skill-set just a tad. ... All he really needs to do is stay healthy, and the results will come.

No of course we can't trade TK and get someone better than TK in return. You have to give to get. Basically, Shero will have to pull a 2-for-1 type move to get a high quality winger, either using draft picks, defensive prospects or whatever. Or, if he gets really ballsy, trade one player of higher pedigree (like Flower and TK (for roster or cap reasons)) to get someone who is better than TK plus a real winger so Geno can go back to being a C. Not saying that's imminent or likely, just stating that TK is exactly the kind of guy who gets packaged in trades every year.

I'm not even saying I don't appreciate his contributions, only that I have confidence there are many other young players who could contribute the same thing, if it meant having a real winger or more D depth on this team.

We'll agree to disgagree on the "results will come / it's a matter of time" stuff. He's had plenty of shots in practice and in games the last two+ seasons to make something happen. Mark Letestu needed 2 games... how many does TK need to get for you to believe what I'm saying? The number is already substantially higher than 2.

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10-17-2010, 10:59 AM
  #69
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New to spelling, eh?
New to long-running jokes on the board, eh?

And in response to the OP - ANYONE except pretty much Crosby is expendable for the right return. The last part of that sentence is the one posters on the trade board usually ignore, but the most important part. If trading Talbot or Kennedy is the thing you need to do to seal a deal that will improve us or bring back another part, you do it.

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10-17-2010, 11:24 AM
  #70
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New to long-running jokes on the board, eh?

And in response to the OP - ANYONE except pretty much Crosby is expendable for the right return. The last part of that sentence is the one posters on the trade board usually ignore, but the most important part. If trading Talbot or Kennedy is the thing you need to do to seal a deal that will improve us or bring back another part, you do it.
I agree with this 110%. Everyone and anyone on this team not named Sid and Geno are expendable. I do however believe that some are more expendable than others though. If we can drop certain players ahead of guys like TK or Cooke for example, then I think we should. As far as role players are concerned, those two are our most important on this team in my opinion.

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10-17-2010, 11:29 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by HandshakeLine View Post
New to long-running jokes on the board, eh?

And in response to the OP - ANYONE except pretty much Crosby is expendable for the right return. The last part of that sentence is the one posters on the trade board usually ignore, but the most important part. If trading Talbot or Kennedy is the thing you need to do to seal a deal that will improve us or bring back another part, you do it.
Yep. Agreed. If trading Kennedy can bring us back a top 6 winger, I'd do it. That's not going to happen though, and trading any of our bottom 6'ers will bring back a prospect or a draft pick. If that's what I'm returning, there's a few other guys who will have their heads in the chopping block first.

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10-17-2010, 11:34 AM
  #72
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Well, the possibility of it happening and the potential of it happening are two different things. We can't trade with Anaheim every year.

The point I'm making is (and seemingly have to make every season) is that you're looking at maybe one or two people on a team who are truly invaluable to a team's success. Crosby and (most of the time) Malkin are really the only people who can fit that bill. There are degrees of probability for the others to be moved, however, and some are more likely than others to be on the end of a trade proposal.

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10-17-2010, 11:47 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by AcquaticBirdMan66 View Post
No one here ever claimed that he was anything "special". What we are saying though is that he's a good player in his own right, especially when filling in a 3rd line role, or occassional minutes on the top 6. He works hard, has great speed, decent hands, and his overall hockey IQ seems to be improving with age in my opinion. If he stays healthy, I can see him blooming into a 40 point guy.

Anyways, I wouldn't be heartbroken if Talbot were to leave. As much as I love the guy's character, I really don't think he's worth the million dollar salary that we're paying him. I think we can easily fill his spot with a cheaper alternative from WBS. Also, with the emergence of Letestu as a solid player, I think that Talbot has become even more expendable.
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+1. I feel the same way.
+2. I like Talbot and what he brings to locker room but $1M makes him expendable.

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10-17-2010, 11:52 AM
  #74
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You guys seem to be implying it's an extra $250K here or there that makes a guy expendable or not. That's close to being chump change, even in the salary cap era.

What makes a guy expendable is how easily he can be replaced with other players on the market. Guys like Crosby and Malkin are untouchable because they're almost impossible to replace value-wise, even when replacing with 2 players of (combined) equal cap value. TK, Talbot... all these guys we talk about on the bottom six (+ Dupuis, 1st liner extraordinaire) are easy to replace (assuming there was a team interested) at or near their salary value.

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10-17-2010, 12:40 PM
  #75
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UFAs in 2011/12
-Adams
-Asham
-Comrie
-Dupuis
-Godard
-Rupp

RFAs in 2011/12
-Kennedy
-Letestu
-Talbot

Leaving:
Kunitz-Crosby-xxx
Tangradi-Staal-Malkin
Cooke-xxx-xxx
xxx-xxx-xxx

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