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bure-fedorov-mogilny line

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10-15-2010, 11:56 PM
  #1
crobro
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bure-fedorov-mogilny line

did anyone get a chance to see the line together internationally.

ive heard they were lethal together even better then the KLM.

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10-16-2010, 06:07 AM
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Theokritos
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Originally Posted by crobro View Post
did anyone get a chance to see the line together internationally.
ive heard they were lethal together even better then the KLM.
It's impossible to label them as "better then Krutov/Larionov/Makarov". The only international tournament they played together was the 1988/1989 World Junior Hockey Championship. No 1988 Olympics (Bure was 16 back then), no 1989 World Championship (Bure, 18, wasn't picked), no 1990 World Championship (as Mogilny had defected right after the 1989 Worlds): The line "Bure/Fyodorov/Mogilny" did not exist in the Soviet National team, save for the 88/89 Junior tournament in Anchorage.
Whether the three played together regularly for CSKA/Red Army during the 1988/1989 season is another question. Hopefully someone here can answer it. If they did, you've got one season and one international junior tournament to judge the line, not more.

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10-16-2010, 08:46 AM
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Eisen
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They played together on CSKA, they were most certainly not better then Larionov`s line, they were basically children when then played with them.

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10-16-2010, 09:01 AM
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Dennis Bonvie
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They played together on CSKA, they were most certainly not better then Larionov`s line, they were basically children when then played with them.
True, but if the Soviet Union didn't crumble and they were forced to play in that system together for years like MLK, there's a good chance they would have been just as dominant.

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10-16-2010, 09:13 AM
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Eisen
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True, but if the Soviet Union didn't crumble and they were forced to play in that system together for years like MLK, there's a good chance they would have been just as dominant.
True, but I don`t know if that would have worked. I don't see a problem with Fedorov or Mogilny but I'm not sure how that "hockey as a system" would have a negative effect on Bure. He would have to change his style of play a lot. But that style also made him lethal.

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10-16-2010, 02:59 PM
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here's the three of them from the world junior championships in anchorage 1989

fedorov is the guy in the center who scores


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10-16-2010, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
True, but if the Soviet Union didn't crumble and they were forced to play in that system together for years like MLK, there's a good chance they would have been just as dominant.
Yes that very well could have happened and it made me think of which 3 players you would rather have (as a line or separately) at their peaks on a team and I probably would take the 3 young Turks at their peaks, although even as I type this I'm 2nd guessing myself as Larinov was one of the smartest players I've ever seen play.

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10-17-2010, 01:22 AM
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VMBM
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Yes that very well could have happened and it made me think of which 3 players you would rather have (as a line or separately) at their peaks on a team and I probably would take the 3 young Turks at their peaks, although even as I type this I'm 2nd guessing myself as Larinov was one of the smartest players I've ever seen play.
Larionov was considered the weakest player of KLM (quite rightfully so), when they were playing in Soviet Union and in international competition. In fact, he was the 5th best and the least important player on the whole Green Unit in my opinion.

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10-17-2010, 03:03 AM
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Eisen
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Larionov was considered the weakest player of KLM (quite rightfully so), when they were playing in Soviet Union and in international competition. In fact, he was the 5th best and the least important player on the whole Green Unit in my opinion.
I always thought that was Kasatonov.

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10-17-2010, 03:06 AM
  #10
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Yes that very well could have happened and it made me think of which 3 players you would rather have (as a line or separately) at their peaks on a team and I probably would take the 3 young Turks at their peaks, although even as I type this I'm 2nd guessing myself as Larinov was one of the smartest players I've ever seen play.
If you are second guessing that because of Larionov, you should really get some footage of Makarov and Krutov. I'm not trying to be condescending; just get a few games. Those two were better in their primes although the huge questionmark (doping and all) about Krutov remains.


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10-17-2010, 04:25 AM
  #11
VMBM
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I always thought that was Kasatonov.
That was the image in my head too, but seeing more and more CCCP games from the Eighties has made me reevaluate that; Kasatonov has certainly looked like a very underrated player indeed. Not maybe top-15 USSR player of all-time, but somewhere between 20 and 25 anyway. Was not as good offensively as Fetisov but was on the same level defensively.

As far as Larionov goes, replace him with someone like Vyacheslav Bykov, and the USSR/CSKA top line would have been just as devastating - I'm 99.999... % sure of that.

The 1987 Canada Cup and the 1985-86 Super Series would be good examples. In the former (outside the 1st game), Larionov was a near total no-show in the finals, and yet it had no effect whatsoever on Makarov and Krutov's effectiveness. In the latter series, Larionov didn't even play for CSKA and was actually replaced by a Moscow Spartak player, Victor Tyumenev, and the top line was as devastating as ever. Larionov did have the most satisfactory NHL career, but that isn't enough to make him a superior/equal player IMO. That he was maybe the 'best suited' for the NHL or that he physically outlasted the others, doesn't mean that much to me. Their prime years were behind that Iron Curtain, it's as simple as that.


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10-17-2010, 07:45 AM
  #12
Theokritos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisen View Post
They played together on CSKA
Thanks for the confirmation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisen View Post
they were most certainly not better then Larionov`s line, they were basically children when then played with them.
To substantiate this, here's the 1988-1989 data (according to hockeydb.com):

Krutov/Larionov/Makarov: In total 56 goals.
Krutov - 20 goals, 21 assists, 41 points (in 35 games). PPG: 1,17
Larionov - 15 goals, 12 assists, 27 points (in 31 games). PPG: 0,87
Makarov - 21 goals, 33 assists, 54 points (in 44 games). PPG: 1,23

Kamensky/Bykov/Khomutov: In total 53 goals.
Kamensky - 18 goals, 10 assists, 28 points (in 40 games). PPG: 0,70
Bykov - 16 goals, 20 assists, 36 points (in 40 games). PPG: 0,90
Khomutov - 19 goals, 16 assists, 35 games (in 44 games). PPG: 0,80

Bure/Fyodorov/Mogilny: In total 37 goals.
Bure - 17 goals, 9 assists, 26 points (in 32 games). PPG: 0,81
Fyodorov - 9 goals, 8 assists, 17 points (in 44 games). PPG: 0,39
Mogilny - 11 goals, 11 assists, 22 points (in 31 games). PPG: 0,71

Note: Not bad for 'children' (Mogilny was 19, Fyodorov turned 19 in December 1988, Bure was 17). Bure's stats look very impressive (at 17 years of age he already put up numbers no worse than those of Khomutov and Kamensky) and suggest that "hockey as a system" did not hinder him.


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10-17-2010, 10:16 AM
  #13
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Larionov, a weak link? One of russias best two-way centers if you ask me. People really need to understand all aspects of the game before making their statements.

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10-17-2010, 10:49 AM
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VMBM
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Larionov, a weak link? One of russias best two-way centers if you ask me. People really need to understand all aspects of the game before making their statements.
Who the hell has said he was a "weak link"? It's not a shame being the fifth best, i.e. weakest, player on that unit. Yes, I think he was one of Russia's best two-way centers ever too, so what?

I'll just repeat it: put Vyacheslav Bykov on a line with Makarov and Krutov (with Fetisov and Kasatonov on defense), and the results would be the same.

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10-17-2010, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Who the hell has said he was a "weak link"? It's not a shame being the fifth best, i.e. weakest, player on that unit. Yes, I think he was one of Russia's best two-way centers ever too, so what?

I'll just repeat it: put Vyacheslav Bykov on a line with Makarov and Krutov (with Fetisov and Kasatonov on defense), and the results would be the same.
How do you know that the result would be the same? Bykov is ofcourse a very gifted center but Larionovs two-way play fitted that line like a glove. Kasatonov is more of the weakest link of that unit than Larionov were.

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10-17-2010, 11:34 AM
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Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Larionov was considered the weakest player of KLM (quite rightfully so), when they were playing in Soviet Union and in international competition. In fact, he was the 5th best and the least important player on the whole Green Unit in my opinion.
He (Larinov) was the least skilled, based on pure skills, than either of his wingers but Krutov was a systems players who played very well in the system but lacked the discipline to be considered one of the true greats of all time IMO.

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10-17-2010, 12:17 PM
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VMBM
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
How do you know that the result would be the same? Bykov is ofcourse a very gifted center but Larionovs two-way play fitted that line like a glove. Kasatonov is more of the weakest link of that unit than Larionov were.
Well, I guess I don't KNOW per se, but it's not something that's so hard to imagine - for example, when looking at the tournaments/serieses where Larionov did not play well (1987 CC) or did not play at all (1985-86 Super series). Of course, it could be argued that anyone on that unit was 'replaceable' to a certain extent; meaning that it would have been still a helluva top 5 even without Fetisov or Makarov.

Kasatonov or Larionov, I wouldn't make a huge case for either one. However, Fetisov, Makarov and Krutov, if anyone, were THE stars of that unit, when they were playing together (in USSR/Europe). I think it would be a quite revisionistic thing to say that Larionov was as good or especially better than them in their primes.

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10-17-2010, 02:31 PM
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Well, I guess I don't KNOW per se, but it's not something that's so hard to imagine - for example, when looking at the tournaments/serieses where Larionov did not play well (1987 CC) or did not play at all (1985-86 Super series). Of course, it could be argued that anyone on that unit was 'replaceable' to a certain extent; meaning that it would have been still a helluva top 5 even without Fetisov or Makarov.

Kasatonov or Larionov, I wouldn't make a huge case for either one. However, Fetisov, Makarov and Krutov, if anyone, were THE stars of that unit, when they were playing together (in USSR/Europe). I think it would be a quite revisionistic thing to say that Larionov was as good or especially better than them in their primes.
I wouldn't say he were better than them in the sense that they were offensive stars. But he was the glue, the guy who would take care of eventual mistakes made by his linemates in the offensive zone (Of course Fetisov and Kasatonov did this too).

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10-17-2010, 02:58 PM
  #19
vadim sharifijanov
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True, but I don`t know if that would have worked. I don't see a problem with Fedorov or Mogilny but I'm not sure how that "hockey as a system" would have a negative effect on Bure. He would have to change his style of play a lot. But that style also made him lethal.
the thing i always wondered about bure is what would have happened if the soviet union never crumbled and he had to live his life under similar conditions to the green unit. his dad was a multiple olympic medalist and one of the reasons bure was as good as he was, as incredibly well-conditioned as he was, was because his dad had trained him all his life. i've read people speculate that that's also the reason both bure's bodies broke down so early; kids with developing bodies shouldn't have been put through the physical rigours those two were put through. but bure was certainly no stranger to the kind of discipline that we associate with soviet sports in the iron curtain era.

i think he falls in line under different circumstances. as his career went on, bure became less and less of a team player, and definitely more and more of a defensive liability. this is the opposite of mogilny's career trajectory, who actually was pretty decent both ways in toronto. with mogilny, he defected. this guy was a free spirit and is probably the least likely to have thrived with CSKA-- fyi, gare joyce's book on the '87 WJC is an interesting account of mogilny and fedorov as teenagers. fedorov as we know could play that way in his sleep, but turned it on and off. as bure became more and more his own man after coming to north america, and as he and his brother became more and more estranged from their dad (who kept him in line several times after they defected), he fell more and more in line with our stereotype of the heartless lazy russian. (i still think it's grossly unfair to compare him to yashin or kovalenko though.) remember also the effect larionov had on him as a rookie in vancouver-- obviously rookie bure was no selke candidate, but he listened to what larionov had to say, unlike pat quinn, tom renney, and whoever coached those florida teams. under the influence of larionov and fetisov, i think he becomes a very different player.

i also think that bure had the ability to do anything he wanted to. the fact that his defensive play ranged from passable to horrendous in the NHL i think is due to effort and interest, not a lack of hockey sense. but then the bure i remember, having not seen him in russia, was more dominant in the WJC without fedorov and mogilny than with them. the numbers posted above of him in the russian league at 17 are staggering. as a human being, i don't approve of the repressive soviet apparatus and its withholding of its athletes' civil liberties (from what i've read from larionov and fetisov's accounts). but as a hockey fan, i would have loved to see bure, with his talent, speed, deceptive strength, and mean streak, being the player that tikhonov probably envisioned him becoming.

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