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Matt Walker -- surgery update (post #148) -- out 10-12 weeks.

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Old
10-18-2010, 10:42 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Flyskippy View Post
Compete, not win. Only the WWE is truthful by calling itself "Sports Entertainment". Even the four major sports are that. It's theatre.
Tell that to Ian Laperriere. I mean, seriously?

It's an entertainment industry, sure... but it isn't theater. That's real blood, ya know?

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So, lofty expectations are justified because of their salary. Got it.
Dude. You're working whatever job you do. Your business has goal X, which it consistently fails to achieve... what are the ramifications of that for you?

NHL teams' goal is to win the Stanley Cup. It isn't to finish 2nd.

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10-18-2010, 10:47 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Your boss tells you and your co-workers that the goal for a fundraiser is $3,000 each.

You raise $2,950 and finish second among your 30 co-workers.

He's going to fire you because you didn't meet the goal?
Maybe... doesn't mean you're a loser. May just mean you're not good at that job and should do something else.

Sorta like a hockey player.

But, lets break it down for ya...

Real world: environment of infinite complexity.

NHL hockey: completely controlled environment with clearly delineated rules and goals.

Again, making direct comparisons between real life, and what takes place between the lines of a professional sporting event... is completely asinine. In sports, you have a binary understanding (a winner, and a loser in the end). That's the beauty and the cruelty of it. In life, there are very few (if any) binary understandings.

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10-18-2010, 10:50 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Who is taking heat for enjoying the run. I enjoyed the run. Everyone enjoyed the run.

That doesn't mean losing in 6 was a big deal. Think Edmonton thinks back fondly to Pronger leading 'em to a Game 7 loss? Nah, they boo his ass for asking out of town the next year. What's that SCF appearance doing for Ottawa?

Shafer opined that it was a "big deal" to win the ECF... it's not. That tournament isn't about winning the ECF or WCF, which is why you have that whole tradition of showing disdain for the relevant trophy.
Someone along the way must have thought conference winning was a big deal or there wouldn't be trophies to begin with.

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completely irrelevant point to any discussion you are going to have with folks on this board.
Given that this is a hockey board, yes. It still applies to the bandwagon fans.

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10-18-2010, 10:56 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Tell that to Ian Laperriere. I mean, seriously?

It's an entertainment industry, sure... but it isn't theater. That's real blood, ya know?
Don't insult me.

It *is* theater. It's sports entertainment. No more than that. No matter what - even winning it all - isn't a big deal. A Super Bowl win, a World Series, a Stanley Cup, etc. doesn't mean a hill of beans except to those that follow the respective team and/or sport. Even if "those that follow" number in the millions.

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Dude. You're working whatever job you do. Your business has goal X, which it consistently fails to achieve... what are the ramifications of that for you?

NHL teams' goal is to win the Stanley Cup. It isn't to finish 2nd.
No kidding. And it only happens to 1/30 of teams. To root all-or-nothing or view anything short of a Cup win as losing is fatalistic.

The goal of a professional sports team is to make money. The end.

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10-18-2010, 10:58 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Flyskippy View Post
Someone along the way must have thought conference winning was a big deal or there wouldn't be trophies to begin with.
Quote:
The Prince of Wales Trophy,[1] also known as the Wales Trophy, is an award presented by the National Hockey League (NHL) to the Eastern Conference (formerly the Wales Conference) playoff champions, prior to the final series of games for the Stanley Cup. Named for Prince Edward, Prince of Wales (later King Edward VIII, and then Duke of Windsor), the cup was first presented in the 192526 NHL season to the champion of the first game in Madison Square Garden and then subsequently presented to the champion of the NHL playoffs (including the previous two seasons); however, the trophy has been awarded for eight different accomplishments throughout its history, including for the NHL regular season champions, the American Division regular season champions, the East Division season champions, the Wales Conference regular season champions, the Wales Conference playoff champions, and the Eastern Conference playoff champions. The current holder of the Prince of Wales Trophy is the Philadelphia Flyers after winning the Eastern Conference championship on May 24, 2010.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_of_Wales_Trophy

You can read the rest... basically they have a trophy and do something with it.

Now, they probably would give an award at this point anyway... but, really, who cares?

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10-18-2010, 11:03 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_of_Wales_Trophy

You can read the rest... basically they have a trophy and do something with it.

Now, they probably would give an award at this point anyway... but, really, who cares?
I give. You win.

Life is meaningless if you aren't the greatest person to ever live.

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10-18-2010, 11:05 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Flyskippy View Post
Don't insult me.

It *is* theater. It's sports entertainment. No more than that. No matter what - even winning it all - isn't a big deal. A Super Bowl win, a World Series, a Stanley Cup, etc. doesn't mean a hill of beans except to those that follow the respective team and/or sport. Even if "those that follow" number in the millions.
Dismissing sports as simple "theater" is the insulting statement. Ian Laperriere threw his face in front of a slap shot and suffered permanent damage to his eye. Professional football players knowingly sacrifice years off their lives.

And most things in life don't matter much outside of the value that people place in it... we aren't hunter gatherers living from day-to-day. That people care, is what creates value.

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No kidding. And it only happens to 1/30 of teams. To root all-or-nothing or view anything short of a Cup win as losing is fatalistic.

The goal of a professional sports team is to make money. The end.
Only if you operate under the assumption that they will never ever win. Everyone has hope, man.

The goal of organizations and leagues is to make money... but you don't become a professional athlete (or coach) without having an insane competitive drive. The guys that lack that wash out of these leagues so fast its absurd. To suggest that competition isn't at the heart of it all... you're missing the big picture of what it takes to make it to a professional league.

And that's without getting into the fact that many of these guys are competing for their roster spot and paycheck. When guys get paid and stop trying, it's really friggin obvious.

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10-18-2010, 11:06 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I give. You win.

Life is meaningless if you aren't the greatest person to ever live.
Hey, Chris... you're the only one talking about "life." I'm talking about a professional hockey team/league... and don't confuse the two.

The NHL != Life.

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10-18-2010, 11:13 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Hey, Chris... you're the only one talking about "life." I'm talking about a professional hockey team/league... and don't confuse the two.

The NHL != Life.
Well, watching hockey is part of my life. I think it's safe to say that being a hockey fan defines me along with the other things I enjoy/do a lot.

NHL also = life for tons of people playing hockey right now.

It's not a video game. If someone gets hurt it's real. If they get can't find a job, then they're screwed just like in real life.

Sure, we're just spectators unable to control the outcome, but this isn't "just a game."

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10-18-2010, 11:18 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Well, watching hockey is part of my life. I think it's safe to say that being a hockey fan defines me along with the other things I enjoy/do a lot.

NHL also = life for tons of people playing hockey right now.

It's not a video game. If someone gets hurt it's real. If they get can't find a job, then they're screwed just like in real life.

Sure, we're just spectators unable to control the outcome, but this isn't "just a game."
Yes, it is. They're playing a game. The same game I play once a week with my friends. The difference is, they're getting paid and people pay to watch them play that game for fun.

Sports are not life... and if you cannot distinguish between the two, then you need to take a step back and reevaluate your perspective on the world. If professional sports disappeared tomorrow, life would go on as if nothing had happened... we just wouldn't have a game to watch that night.

People would go to work, raise their kids, hang with their friends, etc.

The NHL, outside of the entertainment we get out of it (as Flyskippy rightly notes) has no material effect on the world around you. None. They do not provide any productive value other than 3 hours of enjoyment... because it's a game, not life.

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10-18-2010, 11:24 AM
  #111
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I think this:

=/= works better than this:
!= when you guys are trying to say not equal

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10-18-2010, 11:26 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
I think this:

=/= works better than this:
!= when you guys are trying to say not equal
Hey man, just because you don't know programming language...

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10-18-2010, 11:30 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yes, it is. They're playing a game. The same game I play once a week with my friends. The difference is, they're getting paid and people pay to watch them play that game for fun.

Sports are not life... and if you cannot distinguish between the two, then you need to take a step back and reevaluate your perspective on the world. If professional sports disappeared tomorrow, life would go on as if nothing had happened... we just wouldn't have a game to watch that night.

People would go to work, raise their kids, hang with their friends, etc.

The NHL, outside of the entertainment we get out of it (as Flyskippy rightly notes) has no material effect on the world around you. None. They do not provide any productive value other than 3 hours of enjoyment... because it's a game, not life.
So it's there job.

So your job is not part of your life?

These players are real people. To you it's just a game you watch, but it certainly isn't for them.

Also, are you insinuating that escapism is not part of life?

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10-18-2010, 11:35 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
So it's there job.

So your job is not part of your life?

These players are real people. To you it's just a game you watch, but it certainly isn't for them.
So, basically you're saying that your life is vicariously living through other people's lives. I mean, that's the only way we get to the NHL really having any truly material value in your life.

That's sad.

A job is part of your life, but it shouldn't define your life... and you can, in fact, get another job in almost every case. So, life would roll on... completely independent from the existence of the NHL.

Quote:
Also, are you insinuating that escapism is not part of life?
Sure it is... but there are many forms of it, and it does not in any way or shape define "life." That's specifically why it's escapism.

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10-18-2010, 11:40 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So, basically you're saying that your life is vicariously living through other people's lives. I mean, that's the only way we get to the NHL really having any truly material value in your life.

That's sad.
Well, one of my jobs is watching other people (NHL player's) do their job.

And who said it was my whole life?

Now you're making up insults just because you're wrong.

If I'm watching hockey as a fan, then hockey is just as much a part of my life as it is yours.

If I'm sad, you're just as pathetic.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
A job is part of your life, but it shouldn't define your life... and you can, in fact, get another job in almost every case. So, life would roll on... completely independent from the existence of the NHL.
Everything that makes you you defines you.

So you being a hockey fan defines part of you. Maybe not all of you, but it definitely defines a part of you.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Sure it is... but there are many forms of it, and it does not in any way or shape define "life." That's specifically why it's escapism.
Escapism is part of your life. How you spend your free time is part of you regardless of whether you want to admit it or not.

You are you, and part of you just happens to be this character "Jester" you created on a hockey forum. That's escapism, but "Jester" isn't somehow separate from you. It is part of what makes you you.

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10-18-2010, 11:46 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
You are you, and part of you just happens to be this character "Jester" you created on a hockey forum. That's escapism, but "Jester" isn't somehow separate from you. It is part of what makes you you.
*head explodes*

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10-18-2010, 12:07 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Hey, Chris... you're the only one talking about "life." I'm talking about a professional hockey team/league... and don't confuse the two.

The NHL != Life.
Truth.

The NHL + Guinness + BJs = Life.

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10-18-2010, 12:20 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Jester
No, because kids aren't playing winner-take-all professional sports. Little kids shouldn't be playing anything like professional athletes... they shouldn't be throwing at batters, sliding into bags with their cleats up... they shouldn't be getting chippy with their sticks... they shouldn't be tackling like professional football players (no one should).

Conflating little league, youth soccer, you name it with what these guys are doing is the problem, not the "first loser" sentiment.

That being said, moral victories and all that type of **** goes out the window at about the varsity level... no one gives a ***** about finishing 2nd and having a nice season.

Sure, getting to the Cup Finals was fun, but it isn't a big deal. They lost. The year ended in disappointment like every other team in the league outside of Chicago.
Thanks for your answer, Jester. Sorry I'm in (much) after the conversation has pro(re?)gressed.

Call me a nave Pollyanna, but I don't subscribe to what you are getting at with winner-takes-all approach. I hate the playing style of guys like Avery, Carcillo, Tucker, etc., who showed that they would do pretty much anything to win, including making ***** of themselves, intentionally injuring opponents, etc. And I think it's a shame thinking that parents, coaches, etc., would be saying to players: "Okay, you're at the XXX level now. Forget what I've told you the past decade about fair play and sportsmanship. From now on, you do anything it takes to win."

Yes, much more emphasis on winning is expected as one progresses from pee-wee to the majors, and I am in awe of players like Laperriere who put their personal safety on the line to help their teams. However, there are rules in place to ensure fair play and safety within the struggle for victory. We fill 30 pages of game threads with complaints about the reffing and worse injustices (real or imagined). Is that hypocrisy?

Even in the pros, second place is still meaningful. That's why the runners-up get nice big fat cheques in golf, tennis, etc., and silver medals in the Olympics. What do you think of a golfer who calls a penalty on himself, and winds up in second place in a tournament?

I'd say that even the team sports are regressing in terms of win at all costs from the days when players wouldn't participate in All-Star events because they didn't want to stop hating their opponents, or beanballs were the rule rather than the exception. And with the expansion of free agency, I often wonder how much the ideal of winning it all is held up as the ultimate goal for athletes.

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10-18-2010, 12:22 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Valhoun
The NHL + Guinness + BJs = Life.
What do the Blue Jackets have to do with life?





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10-18-2010, 12:27 PM
  #120
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Thanks for your answer, Jester. Sorry I'm in (much) after the conversation has pro(re?)gressed.

Call me a nave Pollyanna, but I don't subscribe to what you are getting at with winner-takes-all approach. I hate the playing style of guys like Avery, Carcillo, Tucker, etc., who showed that they would do pretty much anything to win, including making ***** of themselves, intentionally injuring opponents, etc. And I think it's a shame thinking that parents, coaches, etc., would be saying to players: "Okay, you're at the XXX level now. Forget what I've told you the past decade about fair play and sportsmanship. From now on, you do anything it takes to win."

Yes, much more emphasis on winning is expected as one progresses from pee-wee to the majors, and I am in awe of players like Laperriere who put their personal safety on the line to help their teams. However, there are rules in place to ensure fair play and safety within the struggle for victory. We fill 30 pages of game threads with complaints about the reffing and worse injustices (real or imagined). Is that hypocrisy?

Even in the pros, second place is still meaningful. That's why the runners-up get nice big fat cheques in golf, tennis, etc., and silver medals in the Olympics. What do you think of a golfer who calls a penalty on himself, and winds up in second place in a tournament?

I'd say that even the team sports are regressing in terms of win at all costs from the days when players wouldn't participate in All-Star events because they didn't want to stop hating their opponents, or beanballs were the rule rather than the exception. And with the expansion of free agency, I often wonder how much the ideal of winning it all is held up as the ultimate goal for athletes.
You're mixing up the whole point, here.

I don't think Jester is endorsing the "win at all costs," mentality. That's what certain (cheap) people do when it's all on the line for them, but that's just what the pressure of elite-level athletics entails for some.

In the NHL, if you don't win the Stanley Cup, you haven't reached the top. Nobody is happy with just getting close. Go ask Laperriere if he's satisfied with a Prince of Wales trophy. Ask him if just getting close to the Cup was "good enough." I guarantee you it wasn't.

As for the silver medal, go ask Ryan Miller how he feels about it. Again, there's a certain level of pride in your accomplishment but it pales in comparison to the disappointment of having been so close to something infinitely better.

That doesn't mean you should throw sportsmanship out of the window to accomplish the ultimate goal, but I promise you none of these guys is complacent with anything less than the big prize.

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10-18-2010, 12:33 PM
  #121
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Thanks for your answer, Jester. Sorry I'm in (much) after the conversation has pro(re?)gressed.

Call me a nave Pollyanna, but I don't subscribe to what you are getting at with winner-takes-all approach. I hate the playing style of guys like Avery, Carcillo, Tucker, etc., who showed that they would do pretty much anything to win, including making ***** of themselves, intentionally injuring opponents, etc. And I think it's a shame thinking that parents, coaches, etc., would be saying to players: "Okay, you're at the XXX level now. Forget what I've told you the past decade about fair play and sportsmanship. From now on, you do anything it takes to win."

Yes, much more emphasis on winning is expected as one progresses from pee-wee to the majors, and I am in awe of players like Laperriere who put their personal safety on the line to help their teams. However, there are rules in place to ensure fair play and safety within the struggle for victory. We fill 30 pages of game threads with complaints about the reffing and worse injustices (real or imagined). Is that hypocrisy?
The parents don't need to say anything... it's tacitly understood at that level that the dynamics have changed. And the real difference is that you don't have a coach/parent telling you to tone it down.

I distinctly remember hitting the level in baseball where the gloves were off. More was asked of you as a competitor/player, and failure wasn't glossed over with "nice effort, kid."

Quote:
Even in the pros, second place is still meaningful. That's why the runners-up get nice big fat cheques in golf, tennis, etc., and silver medals in the Olympics. What do you think of a golfer who calls a penalty on himself, and winds up in second place in a tournament?
Ah, runners-up in individual sports get checks because that's how they earn their living. If they weren't giving out check down the leaderboard, the number of folks that would be professional golf, tennis, etc. players would dwindle considerably.

And a golfer that calls a penalty on himself... is following the rules of the sport.

Quote:
I'd say that even the team sports are regressing in terms of win at all costs from the days when players wouldn't participate in All-Star events because they didn't want to stop hating their opponents, or beanballs were the rule rather than the exception. And with the expansion of free agency, I often wonder how much the ideal of winning it all is held up as the ultimate goal for athletes.
Sure it's regressing... partially due to the culture of sports (these guys all know each other from very early age due to traveling tournaments and all that jazz), and free agency.

Doesn't mean it isn't the MO and the purpose of why you put on the uniform.

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10-18-2010, 12:36 PM
  #122
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Thanks for your perspective, infidelappel. I agree with you that the Flyers shouldn't be "complacent" about being the runners-up; what I'm aiming at is the notion that the accomplishment of getting to there can't be celebrated at all. Weren't there flashbacks of the series against Boston, as put together by the Flyers org? I don't see it as a black-or-white issue; their finish should be both an encouragement as well as an ache to win it all this year. The two sentiments can coexist.

As for win at all costs, the statement:
Quote:
No, because kids aren't playing winner-take-all professional sports. Little kids shouldn't be playing anything like professional athletes... they shouldn't be throwing at batters, sliding into bags with their cleats up... they shouldn't be getting chippy with their sticks... they shouldn't be tackling like professional football players (no one should).
certainly endorses that throwing at batters, sliding into bags with their cleats up and getting chippy with sticks is what pro athletes should do. I'll own up to my hypocrisy for enjoying a fight or a punishing check made by my team, but we all set out own boundaries on how far is too far when it comes to winning.

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10-18-2010, 12:42 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Well, one of my jobs is watching other people (NHL player's) do their job.

And who said it was my whole life?

Now you're making up insults just because you're wrong.

If I'm watching hockey as a fan, then hockey is just as much a part of my life as it is yours.

If I'm sad, you're just as pathetic.
Your job is to observe **** and write about it here. As currently situated, you are observing hockey and writing about that. You could just as easily do that about something else. Your job is an abstract process that can be applied to any subject matter.

Hey man, if it's pathetic to not construct the value of your life through a sport... call me guilty. I enjoy hockey (a lot), but it certainly ain't *ing life. And it certainly has no real impact on the real world and the value I'm going to get out of my life.

In any event, directly correlating the parameters of success and failure in a professional sports league to the real world (ya know, with people putting food on the table and all that jazz) is completely asinine. Sports aren't that important.

Quote:
Everything that makes you you defines you.

So you being a hockey fan defines part of you. Maybe not all of you, but it definitely defines a part of you.
I am a hockey fan... that doesn't mean my life is being a hockey fan. My life is my family and friends.

Even for a professional hockey player, whose life is directly connected to the sport/league, that's a very very small segment of their life in its entirety. Their career as a "hockey player" will be over when they're in their 30s (if not sooner) in most cases. Lotta life left. Being a father.... husband.. son...

Who gives a **** about hockey in the grand scheme of things?

Quote:
Escapism is part of your life. How you spend your free time is part of you regardless of whether you want to admit it or not.

You are you, and part of you just happens to be this character "Jester" you created on a hockey forum. That's escapism, but "Jester" isn't somehow separate from you. It is part of what makes you you.
Yes, dude, but escapism is escapism because it is specifically not necessary to your life. You choose to do X, you could just as easily choose to do Y. Thus whatever you're doing to "escape" your daily grind is sidebar... it isn't your "life."


Last edited by Jester: 10-18-2010 at 12:55 PM.
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10-18-2010, 12:44 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
certainly endorses that throwing at batters, sliding into bags with their cleats up and getting chippy with sticks is what pro athletes should do. I'll own up to my hypocrisy for enjoying a fight or a punishing check made by my team, but we all set out own boundaries on how far is too far when it comes to winning.
Little kids shouldn't play hockey like Chris Pronger.

Little kids shouldn't pitch like a professional pitcher... where throwing at batters is part of the game (both owning the plate, and protecting your own teammates when they're getting hit with pitches).

Little kids shouldn't be running catchers at home plate (it's actually specifically illegal at many lower levels of baseball).

It's a different game at the professional level... by a country mile.

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10-18-2010, 12:46 PM
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BernieParent
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Thanks, Jester. Like I alluded to my my answer to infidelappel, there's a huge grey area around where we all mark our limits where the goal of winning pushes the boundaries. I'm not advocating school teams where everyone who tries out gets on the team, and the coach plays his/her players based on whom he/she thinks will give the team the best chance to win.

And I was thinking the very same thing about my statement regarding individual sports even while typing, but I included it all the same because it supports that there is value in second place among pro athletes.

Quote:
And a golfer that calls a penalty on himself... is following the rules of the sport.
That's my point, and beyond that there are numerous instances where the player (probably) wouldn't have been cited for an infraction had he not called it on himself. Thus, win at all costs is not universally embraced.

One thing I do have to ask:
Quote:
I distinctly remember hitting the level in baseball where the gloves were off.
Didn't it hurt to catch the ball?

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