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Old
10-18-2010, 01:29 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
His inability to take his game to the next level (become a NHL regular) is because he hasn't been given the opportunity to take his game to the next level (become an NHL regular)?

So if he hasn't gotten a shot, but in your mind he's busted already?

So he failed the test before he took it?

Maroon's had one bad year in the AHL filled with injuries. Let's see what the rest of the season brings. No need to throw him under the bus right now.
Why did Matsumoto never make it in the NHL? Maroon could very well be the same, coming into camp unprepared does not help his case and there are reports that the Philly brass has come to a crossroads and if he cannot sustain a full year competing at a high level he will be gone. For him to get passed over says nothing about how I feel about him but it does say a lot about what the coach and GM think about him, hmmmm.


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Maroon's physicality and forechecking might make him better as a fourth liner than Holmstrom...

He's also pretty quick to drop the gloves to defend his teammates.
Again, when I am looking at prospects I want guys who are going to step in to a more defined role than a 4th line mucker and grinder, those are a dime a dozen. What's next, inquiries as to why Legein is not on the roster?

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10-18-2010, 01:33 PM
  #77
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[QUOTE=Cartsiephan;28382860]
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Why did Matsumoto never make it in the NHL? Maroon could very well be the same, coming into camp unprepared does not help his case and there are reports that the Philly brass has come to a crossroads and if he cannot sustain a full year competing at a high level he will be gone. For him to get passed over says nothing about how I feel about him but it does say a lot about what the coach and GM think about him, hmmmm.




Again, when I am looking at prospects I want guys who are going to step in to a more defined role than a 4th line mucker and grinder, those are a dime a dozen. What's next, inquiries as to why Legein is not on the roster?
That is still a mystery, the fact he didnt get any real chance in camp, not that he isnt on the roster.

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10-18-2010, 01:35 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
That is still a mystery, the fact he didnt get any real chance in camp, not that he isnt on the roster.
I do not know if it is the same as Matsumoto but I do not think this kid has ever played a shift on defense, he has tools but cannot put it all together.

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10-18-2010, 01:52 PM
  #79
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Carter and Giroux need to swap positions and I have no faith in Leino, Zherdev, and to a lesser extent, Hartnell to produce offensively right now. At least not enough to rely on them for primary scoring of any sort.

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10-18-2010, 02:31 PM
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Carter and Giroux need to swap positions and I have no faith in Leino, Zherdev, and to a lesser extent, Hartnell to produce offensively right now. At least not enough to rely on them for primary scoring of any sort.

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10-18-2010, 03:00 PM
  #81
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Why did Matsumoto never make it in the NHL?
Matsumoto never made it to the NHL because, while he was strong offensively at the AHL level, he didn't have enough pure talent to pull it off at the NHL level. He was an average shooter, a decent passer, a just decent skater, average forechecker, and not exactly physical. To top that off, he was poor defensively.

In order to generate any offense at all, he would have to hold onto the puck. He's another of those players that generates offense through controlling the puck. Unfortunately he was not gifted enough to keep the puck. At the NHL level in particular, he would get abused. Since he wasn't very strong offensively without the puck (much like Carter or Nodl, though Nodl seems confused with or without the puck anywhere near the net), he doesn't exactly make a strong complimentary forward. Sure he could pass the puck, but who would you rather have at center controlling the offensive play? Giroux, Briere, Carter, Richards? At the very least, if Matsumoto even had an NHL future, he wasn't going to get a shot here.

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Maroon could very well be the same,
Maroon is nothing like Matsumoto. He's a natural winger, and he doesn't need the puck to generate offense. He's physical, he's feisty, he's big, and he's strong. He's a below-average skater, but he makes up for that in hands and tenacity. He can win pucks and make plays. I mentioned his hands, but they deserve another mention because he has incredible hands; the kind you need to play around the crease and bang home junk.

He is not bad defensively discounting his skating, but his biggest problem is getting into position. His skating below-average skating makes him a less than reliable defensive player, but on the wing, a lot of that would be covered up anyway.

Maroon has some very useful skills; particularly skills that the Flyers are in need of, which is being more and more evident in their early season.

So how could Maroon and Matsumoto be the same? The only similarity between them is that they both could end up never making it to the NHL. That said, they share that with every other NHL prospect. It's not really saying much.

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coming into camp unprepared does not help his case and there are reports that the Philly brass has come to a crossroads and if he cannot sustain a full year competing at a high level he will be gone.
Where are these reports? You'd think I would've seen them. I've heard rumors that the Flyers aren't pleased with his offensive output last year, but I've also heard reports that they realize he was injured. Before his injured training camp before 2009-10, they were VERY high on him. What has changed? A poor year and a few injuries?

So where is this report that they're planning on moving him?

Could they end up moving him if he doesn't perform? Sure, but the same could be said about anyone.

Are you sure you're not just making up your own speculations at this point in time? That's what it sounds like to me. If Maroon really was on such a hot seat, you'd think I would've known about it.

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For him to get passed over says nothing about how I feel about him but it does say a lot about what the coach and GM think about him, hmmmm.
This is the same team that didn't give Leino any legitimate time until the playoffs when injuries struck the team. It was probably to get Leino's skating up to par as well, but there was no evidence to suggest that Leino would've ever gotten any time had Carter/Gagne gotten hurt.

How big a mistake would that have been? Leaving out such a strong offensive weapon like that just because he hasn't proven anything at the NHL level?

Laviolette likes to keep things that work. Carcillo and Powe had worked before. He was testing Guerin because he scored 20+ goals last year. They were probably never going to call up Maroon unless he really wowed them. They were never going to call up any unknown quality anyway.

What happened isn't shocking. I just hope Maroon gets a legitimate shot. In his own opportunity in the preseason, he was the best player for our team. He's been the best player so far for the Phantoms without question.

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Again, when I am looking at prospects I want guys who are going to step in to a more defined role than a 4th line mucker and grinder, those are a dime a dozen. What's next, inquiries as to why Legein is not on the roster?
I don't even really like Legein nearly as much as some others here do. Granted, a lot of that love has swapped over to Rinaldo.

Flyers fans seem to love smaller, faster, feistier pests.

Maroon is a bigger, slow, physical monster with solid offensive talent. You'd think he'd get some more love.

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10-18-2010, 03:14 PM
  #82
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Recchi drew that penalty and you know how sometimes Recchi gets, like it's the end of the world.

lol, that was actually funny.. But Hartnell did take a minor there again. MinorPenalty is Hartnells middle name.


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10-18-2010, 03:25 PM
  #83
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Where are these reports? You'd think I would've seen them. I've heard rumors that the Flyers aren't pleased with his offensive output last year, but I've also heard reports that they realize he was injured. Before his injured training camp before 2009-10, they were VERY high on him. What has changed? A poor year and a few injuries?

So where is this report that they're planning on moving him?

Could they end up moving him if he doesn't perform? Sure, but the same could be said about anyone.

Are you sure you're not just making up your own speculations at this point in time? That's what it sounds like to me. If Maroon really was on such a hot seat, you'd think I would've known about it.
Why would you have seen these reports? If you have any real contacts within the flyers orginization, then you should check with them. You asked what has changed, check with your contacts, you would have your answer.

Again if he was on the hotseat, why would you know about it? The flyers were not happy with his play and he had other issues they were not to happy about. Just because it isnt out there doesnt mean they dont exist.

Also the coach had no bearing on why Maroon didnt get into but 1 game in the preseason. That was all managements call.

Has he been their best player or you just basing that off of the stats?

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10-18-2010, 03:49 PM
  #84
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I also can't fathom how Shelley is getting a spot over Powe.

I didn't know how big of a season Maroon is having down in Adirondack. Eventually, he should probably get a shot at the big club. We're dying for a net presence with good hands on the PP so I'd be interested in seeing how he does there.

Can't be worse of an option for our top nine then Carbomb or Nodl. So why not?

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10-18-2010, 03:57 PM
  #85
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I also can't fathom how Shelley is getting a spot over Powe.

I didn't know how big of a season Maroon is having down in Adirondack. Eventually, he should probably get a shot at the big club. We're dying for a net presence with good hands on the PP so I'd be interested in seeing how he does there.

Can't be worse of an option for our top nine then Carbomb or Nodl. So why not?
The lack of any attention to Maroon in training camp was pretty glaring. Hopefully that was a kick in the pants to really get him moving... he really went from dark horse to make the club last year to afterthought.

And, yeah, it would definitely be huge for this team if he could come in and be that guy on the third line that could chip in some goals. The problem, of course, is that given his lack of footspeed I think he's going to be a big time defensive liability in the NHL (especially early on), and if you're putting him with either Briere or Giroux... recipe for disaster. Basically needs to be with Richards given our current team construction.

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10-18-2010, 03:58 PM
  #86
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JVR-Richards-Giroux
Hartnell-Briere-Leino
Carcillo-Carter-Zherdev
Powe-Betts-Nodl
Shelley

Hope that Carcillo-Carter-Zherdev can play like hartnell-Carter-Lupul

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10-18-2010, 04:21 PM
  #87
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Matsumoto never made it to the NHL because, while he was strong offensively at the AHL level, he didn't have enough pure talent to pull it off at the NHL level. He was an average shooter, a decent passer, a just decent skater, average forechecker, and not exactly physical. To top that off, he was poor defensively.

In order to generate any offense at all, he would have to hold onto the puck. He's another of those players that generates offense through controlling the puck. Unfortunately he was not gifted enough to keep the puck. At the NHL level in particular, he would get abused. Since he wasn't very strong offensively without the puck (much like Carter or Nodl, though Nodl seems confused with or without the puck anywhere near the net), he doesn't exactly make a strong complimentary forward. Sure he could pass the puck, but who would you rather have at center controlling the offensive play? Giroux, Briere, Carter, Richards? At the very least, if Matsumoto even had an NHL future, he wasn't going to get a shot here.



Maroon is nothing like Matsumoto. He's a natural winger, and he doesn't need the puck to generate offense. He's physical, he's feisty, he's big, and he's strong. He's a below-average skater, but he makes up for that in hands and tenacity. He can win pucks and make plays. I mentioned his hands, but they deserve another mention because he has incredible hands; the kind you need to play around the crease and bang home junk.

He is not bad defensively discounting his skating, but his biggest problem is getting into position. His skating below-average skating makes him a less than reliable defensive player, but on the wing, a lot of that would be covered up anyway.

Maroon has some very useful skills; particularly skills that the Flyers are in need of, which is being more and more evident in their early season.

So how could Maroon and Matsumoto be the same? The only similarity between them is that they both could end up never making it to the NHL. That said, they share that with every other NHL prospect. It's not really saying much.



Where are these reports? You'd think I would've seen them. I've heard rumors that the Flyers aren't pleased with his offensive output last year, but I've also heard reports that they realize he was injured. Before his injured training camp before 2009-10, they were VERY high on him. What has changed? A poor year and a few injuries?

So where is this report that they're planning on moving him?

Could they end up moving him if he doesn't perform? Sure, but the same could be said about anyone.

Are you sure you're not just making up your own speculations at this point in time? That's what it sounds like to me. If Maroon really was on such a hot seat, you'd think I would've known about it.



This is the same team that didn't give Leino any legitimate time until the playoffs when injuries struck the team. It was probably to get Leino's skating up to par as well, but there was no evidence to suggest that Leino would've ever gotten any time had Carter/Gagne gotten hurt.

How big a mistake would that have been? Leaving out such a strong offensive weapon like that just because he hasn't proven anything at the NHL level?

Laviolette likes to keep things that work. Carcillo and Powe had worked before. He was testing Guerin because he scored 20+ goals last year. They were probably never going to call up Maroon unless he really wowed them. They were never going to call up any unknown quality anyway.

What happened isn't shocking. I just hope Maroon gets a legitimate shot. In his own opportunity in the preseason, he was the best player for our team. He's been the best player so far for the Phantoms without question.



I don't even really like Legein nearly as much as some others here do. Granted, a lot of that love has swapped over to Rinaldo.

Flyers fans seem to love smaller, faster, feistier pests.

Maroon is a bigger, slow, physical monster with solid offensive talent. You'd think he'd get some more love.
I really do not know how to respond to this, so I will give it a try....Patrick Maroon has shown nothing at all today, yesterday, last season, or the previous season, that he is ready or ever will be ready to make it at the NHL level in any functioning, successful capacity.

He has weaknesses in his game, which is why the Matsumoto reference came about, and unless he is willing to work at that his entire existence as a hockey player is as an AHL journeyman. Matsumoto will go on to have a fine AHL career, he is once again scoring wherever he was relocated to. Maroon is going to have to earn his chance but even then we are talking about a marginal prospect, for Homer to get anything of value he is going to have to make a future move to address the needs, not through the farm system because that is depleted.

Maybe he is the Mike Knuble type who finds a home and flourishes in his late 20's? Bottom line is he has not shown management that he can play at the NHL level, was not given a shot to participate in preseason games and yes there have been whispers that this is his last chance.

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10-18-2010, 05:15 PM
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Why would you have seen these reports? If you have any real contacts within the flyers orginization, then you should check with them. You asked what has changed, check with your contacts, you would have your answer.

Again if he was on the hotseat, why would you know about it? The flyers were not happy with his play and he had other issues they were not to happy about. Just because it isnt out there doesnt mean they dont exist.
Again, why should I have to ask?

Cartsiephan said that there was such talk that Maroon would be moved if he didn't have a strong season. So I would like to know where he gets these claims. Why should I have to prove that they don't exist? I haven't seen it. The burden of proof lies with him.

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Also the coach had no bearing on why Maroon didnt get into but 1 game in the preseason. That was all managements call.
Again, like in the Leino situation, it appears as though the management made their own decision as to what they were looking for. Maroon may not have been that at the time, but he could be in the near future.

Just because they didn't give him a strong look doesn't mean he wouldn't succeed. Leino is the perfect example.

Since none of us know the real reason behind this motive, it's best not to speculate either way.

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Has he been their best player or you just basing that off of the stats?
No. I actually watch Phantoms games when they don't collide with Flyers' games or something else I'm doing. Maroon has looked good.

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10-18-2010, 05:17 PM
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The lack of any attention to Maroon in training camp was pretty glaring. Hopefully that was a kick in the pants to really get him moving... he really went from dark horse to make the club last year to afterthought.

And, yeah, it would definitely be huge for this team if he could come in and be that guy on the third line that could chip in some goals. The problem, of course, is that given his lack of footspeed I think he's going to be a big time defensive liability in the NHL (especially early on), and if you're putting him with either Briere or Giroux... recipe for disaster. Basically needs to be with Richards given our current team construction.
Well Briere's line is what it is. I'm not going to get into a fight about Giroux's defensive ability again, but we both agree he should be a center. So why not?

Maroon - Richards - Giroux
Hartnell - Briere - Leino
vanRiemsdyk - Carter - Zherdev
Powe - Betts - Carcillo
Shelley

What's the big issue with that? Richards and Giroux could carry the defensive work on that line. Maroon would only benefit from having those two, and he brings a physical presence along the boards/in the crease. I think it would be successful, but in the end, that's the organization's call.

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10-18-2010, 05:19 PM
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Again, why should I have to ask?

Cartsiephan said that there was such talk that Maroon would be moved if he didn't have a strong season. So I would like to know where he gets these claims. Why should I have to prove that they don't exist? I haven't seen it. The burden of proof lies with him.



Again, like in the Leino situation, it appears as though the management made their own decision as to what they were looking for. Maroon may not have been that at the time, but he could be in the near future.

Just because they didn't give him a strong look doesn't mean he wouldn't succeed. Leino is the perfect example.

Since none of us know the real reason behind this motive, it's best not to speculate either way.



No. I actually watch Phantoms games when they don't collide with Flyers' games or something else I'm doing. Maroon has looked good.
Comparing the Leino and Maroon situation are 2 diff situations. Leino didnt get a chance until injuries and sat because of a coaching decision. Wasnt any fault of his own.

Maroon was being sent a very strong message for lackluster play and other things. That was why he didnt get a shot in camp.

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10-18-2010, 05:21 PM
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Comparing the Leino and Maroon situation are 2 diff situations. Leino didnt get a chance until injuries and sat because of a coaching decision. Wasnt any fault of his own.
And how is Maroon not getting a stronger shot to make the team not a coaching decision?

Leino, despite his talent, was held out of the lineup. He was healthy-scratched for the longest time.

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Maroon was being sent a very strong message for lackluster play and other things. That was why he didnt get a shot in camp.
That's possible, even likely. But what's wrong with giving him a shot when he is playing much better?

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10-18-2010, 05:38 PM
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And how is Maroon not getting a stronger shot to make the team not a coaching decision?

Leino, despite his talent, was held out of the lineup. He was healthy-scratched for the longest time.



That's possible, even likely. But what's wrong with giving him a shot when he is playing much better?
1. Because the GM with input from others were not going to allow him to play in the games. As i said, he was being sent a strong message.

2. I agree if he shows he deserves it, he should get a shot. That being said he will need to impress for a long stretch, he was sat down and told what they expected from him this year very sternly. Unless he really dominates i think it may be a while before he is called if at all.

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10-18-2010, 05:45 PM
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1. Because the GM with input from others were not going to allow him to play in the games. As i said, he was being sent a strong message.

2. I agree if he shows he deserves it, he should get a shot. That being said he will need to impress for a long stretch, he was sat down and told what they expected from him this year very sternly. Unless he really dominates i think it may be a while before he is called if at all.
Again, you're acting under the assumption that you know exactly how Holmgren/Laviolette are handling the situation.

The truth is you don't know. I don't know. The rest of the media certainly doesn't know.

This is behind closed doors. For all we know they could've told Maroon that all he needs to do is show some flashes and if the team is struggling to find a 9th forward, they will give him a shot.

We don't know these things. All we know is that they sent him down again, and so far he is performing well.

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10-18-2010, 05:54 PM
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Again, you're acting under the assumption that you know exactly how Holmgren/Laviolette are handling the situation.

The truth is you don't know. I don't know. The rest of the media certainly doesn't know.

This is behind closed doors. For all we know they could've told Maroon that all he needs to do is show some flashes and if the team is struggling to find a 9th forward, they will give him a shot.

We don't know these things. All we know is that they sent him down again, and so far he is performing well.
Not acting under any assumption at all. At least 1 person in the media who covers the team does know this, so you believ what youw ant. No skin off my back either way.

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10-18-2010, 05:57 PM
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Not acting under any assumption at all. At least 1 person in the media who covers the team does know this, so you believ what youw ant. No skin off my back either way.
Which member of the media knows this? I'd like to see an article.

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10-18-2010, 05:58 PM
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Which member of the media knows this? I'd like to see an article.
Who said there was an article? There isnt one, it is called having a conversation with someone about a player.

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10-18-2010, 06:00 PM
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who said there was an article?
So what is it? Who said it?

You can't just insinuate I should believe you when you don't provide any proof do you?

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10-18-2010, 06:06 PM
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So what is it? Who said it?

You can't just insinuate I should believe you when you don't provide any proof do you?
i dont care if you believe me. Well i left my tape recorder at home that day. I dont know if your friendly with any of the beat guys, ask around. Here is a hint start with the guy who has the most to say.

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10-19-2010, 10:05 AM
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Well Briere's line is what it is. I'm not going to get into a fight about Giroux's defensive ability again, but we both agree he should be a center. So why not?

Maroon - Richards - Giroux
Hartnell - Briere - Leino
vanRiemsdyk - Carter - Zherdev
Powe - Betts - Carcillo
Shelley

What's the big issue with that? Richards and Giroux could carry the defensive work on that line. Maroon would only benefit from having those two, and he brings a physical presence along the boards/in the crease. I think it would be successful, but in the end, that's the organization's call.
Because, once again, you're saddling our best center with a guy that he has to carry around. Even if Maroon develops into a legitimate NHLer, he isn't going to be one right away... and it is far from ideal to break him in while playing him with our best center.

The team construction done by Holmgren is abysmal right now. This is such a goofy group of forwards, who don't really fill all the roles a team needs all that well.

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10-19-2010, 10:11 AM
  #100
CS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Because, once again, you're saddling our best center with a guy that he has to carry around. Even if Maroon develops into a legitimate NHLer, he isn't going to be one right away... and it is far from ideal to break him in while playing him with our best center.

The team construction done by Holmgren is abysmal right now. This is such a goofy group of forwards, who don't really fill all the roles a team needs all that well.
Then what about:

vanRiemsdyk - Richards - Giroux
Hartnell - Briere - Leino
Maroon - Carter - Zherdev

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