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Bjugstad vs. Nelson vs. Lee

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Old
08-31-2010, 03:06 PM
  #51
FytinSioux
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Interesting post!

2nd line duties at ND? They do need some scoring.

I gotta agree that I think particularly Nelson will be a bit over his head at North Dakota. Still scrawny and heading to a program that often has 15 forwards of fairlyyyyy similar quality duking it out for playing time. Although I have NO idea how good the kid is, would Little Toews have left the NCAA had he gone to another solid program that offered more opportunity?

In any case, I suspect Bjugstad and Lee will have the most impact on their respective programs, both of which had disappointing seasons last year.
I think Nelson will do just fine at UND. The coaching staff does a good job at developing the younger skilled guys. The same scrawny arguement was brought up about Kristo a year ago, and look at the season he had, albeit as a winger. We once again have wingers with size, so if Nelson's size is an issue, then maybe his wingers will be asked to do the dirty "center" work in the offensive zone until he puts on some muscle. As for David Toews, he had every opportunity to prove himself. He came in little and scrawny, and was easily knocked off the puck. Last year he showed signs that he could play, but was extremely streaky, and simply was not good enough to crack the lineup night in and night out. I don't think he would have blossomed at another D1 lineup, but I could be wrong.

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08-31-2010, 03:46 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by FytinSioux View Post
I think Nelson will do just fine at UND. The coaching staff does a good job at developing the younger skilled guys. The same scrawny arguement was brought up about Kristo a year ago, and look at the season he had, albeit as a winger. We once again have wingers with size, so if Nelson's size is an issue, then maybe his wingers will be asked to do the dirty "center" work in the offensive zone until he puts on some muscle. As for David Toews, he had every opportunity to prove himself. He came in little and scrawny, and was easily knocked off the puck. Last year he showed signs that he could play, but was extremely streaky, and simply was not good enough to crack the lineup night in and night out. I don't think he would have blossomed at another D1 lineup, but I could be wrong.
Please keep us updated on the other guy that's relevant to this discussion (i.e. dominating USHL) - Jason Gregoire. He's the guy I'll measure Lee against. I very much doubt we'll see the college numbers from Lee that we've seen from Gregoire.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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08-31-2010, 05:51 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
Please keep us updated on the other guy that's relevant to this discussion (i.e. dominating USHL) - Jason Gregoire. He's the guy I'll measure Lee against. I very much doubt we'll see the college numbers from Lee that we've seen from Gregoire.

Cheers,

Dan-o
I will do that. I've only seen Lee a couple of times, so I won't do the comparing, but if he is in a league comparable to Gregoire, he is a very very good prospect, not only college, but nhl. Gregoire is very solid in all zones of the ice, like some of the more recent NHL successful prospects to come out of UND (Oshie, Toews, Parise, Zajac, etc.). Majority of Sioux fans, including me, think Gregoire will lead UND in points this season. The good comparison between Nelson, Gregoire, and Lee will come November 26th and 27th when UND plays Notre Dame.

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09-01-2010, 11:46 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by MN_Gopher View Post
OK i have to give this another try. With regards to D1, high school and USHL or Ann Arbor.

You have your top tier. Players who excel to get to D1 early. Kessel and Toews. As underages what they did was huge.

Your 2nd level. Players who leave early to play a full year in the USHL. Or several years. Erik Johnson, Seth Ambroz, David Backes..

Your third. Players who stay through their senior year and go D1 the next year. Oshie, Niskanen...

The 4th level. Guys who play through their senior year then go to the USHL for a full year.

The majority of yur NHLers fit in 1-3. You can still make it out of group 4. Wheeler was drafed and then played a full year of USHL and looks to be a solid NHLer.

With Lee. I am trying to say. At this point in his career. I would have liked to see him take routes 1-2 if we are to get a very accurate assesment of where he is. I do not balme for staying to play football. I think it was a great idea. I have stated many times that teens need to have a clear head. No could ofs. Lee elminated that and did what he wanted when he could. The i would like to have seen him play D1 last year. By falling to the 4th level. It puts him behind the norm IMO. I do how ever feel that Lee needed that year in the USHL. He is a power player. He needed to know what it was like dominate. In D1 last he would not have had success playing his style. He could have gotten detered or tried to change.

Looking at high school numbers. Lets take the career or Pat White. Led Grand Rapids to back to back second place finishes. Beat Cloquet both years just to get in. Then upset the #1 overal seed both years. Was huge and clutch. Opposing coaches gave specifics on how to play White. He was that Grand Rapids team. I think exept for Stejskal(sp) no one else went major D1 from those years. Could be wrong. Goes to the USHL and nets 8 goals in 12 games. Over a season thats 39 goals. Lee had 35 in that same 59 games.

High school and USHL stats mean little. They help. Rather a guy dominate high school and the USHL then have him falter.

I would love to Lee have great success. I love mn hockey and everything related to it. Whether it be a born Minnesotian, a WCHAer or a Wild. If Lee goes on to be an NHL all star. That means that the high school league is worthy of its rep. But i also understand that there are several factors in talent. Honestly. I do not see Lee has having that big of an impact.
Before you get too far off track from the original thread topic. It appears you have the formula down for how players develop today and typically arrive at the NHL level.

Could you explain then, going back to the original thread topic of the three mentioned players, how Lee's choice has had a detrimental effect on his development? Correct me if I am wrong, but neither Bjugstad or Nelson left home early for Ann Arbor, Bjugstad did accelererate a yr. of HS. but both stayed and played for their respective HS teams.

Do you really think every player who leaves home early for Ann Arbor or Jrs. is now at an advantage in their development? I can site endless examples of players who left early and simply stopped developing because they were not ready, either physcially or mentally. Do you really think Nelson and Bjugstad are ready to step in this season and have a big impact for their D-1 programs coming directly from HS? Do you really believe they will develop more by playing a 40-game college season with a full class work load. Being in an environment where they are over-matched both physically and mentally? How much ice time will they actually log on specialty teams or key situations in this abbreviated season, compared to a year of Jr.s playing 80 games and being a valuable player.

They are both making the jump because, their "handlers" are riding their current stock value. How could they play possible play Jrs if you are a first round pick? What would happen to their stock if they played jrs and did not do so well. It is much easier to hide behind your HS success and go straight to D-1 provided you have been anointed as a "special" player then it is to prove yourself in the USHL. It's the early "Prognosticators and Evaluators" who have forced the hand of D-1 coaches into taking these early round selections whether they believe their ready or not because they feel they don't have a choice.

What ever happened to actually dominating your current level of play before taking the next step. What ever happened to learning how to win, or be a leader on your team? It is my belief that these qualities when developed and experienced, are the ones that separate the talent pool from the ones that go on to the next level to ones who never quite figure it out.

The majority of these kids are accelerating their path only to spend a very extended period in the minor leagues until they figure it out, grow-up, toughen up or decide this is what they really want to do. Sadly, many of them don't. In the end its not how quickly you get to the NHL, its how long you stay there.

So If a player like Lee is truly "behind the development curve" and is as raw as you say, just imagine what he might be able to do when he develops his game by concentrating on hockey. Based on your predictions his path will be much slower, but perhaps much more successful in the long run.

Since you have tried to discount all of Lee's results from HS to USHL, I ask when does your highly valued "potential" take a back seat to actual "results" Because right now Lee has the results despite his very raw, primal skills. Which in the end may just be another definition for "potential"

This is an open forum, with all us able to express their opinions, but in your case you have always tried to discount Lee as a over-rated player. Only posting if someone has a positive impression of his skills, its very transparent, whether its this forum, MNhock, gopherpuck live, or the USCHO. Please also don't pretend to be some MN hockey rube supporting your local players, because your agenda reads pretty clear.

I suggest you relax and enjoy the game. Its a good one.


Last edited by ndgolden: 09-01-2010 at 12:11 PM.
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Old
09-01-2010, 12:26 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by ndgolden View Post
Before you get to far off track from the original thread topic. It appears you have the formula down for how players develop today and typically arrive at the NHL level.

Could you explain then, going back to the original thread topic of the three mentioned players, how Lee's choice has had a detrimental effect on his development? Correct me if I am wrong, but neither Bjugstad or Nelson left home early for Ann Arbor, Bjugstad did accelererate a yr. of HS. but both stayed and played for their respective HS teams.

Do you really think every player who leaves home early for Ann Arbor or Jrs. is now at an advantage in their development? I can site endless examples of players who left early and simply stopped developing because they were not ready, either physcially or mentally. Do you really think Nelson and Bjugstad are ready to step in this season and have a big impact for their respective programs.

What ever happened to actually dominating your current level of play before taking the next step. What ever happened to learning how to win, or be a leader on your team? The majority of these kids are accelerating their path only to spend a very extended period in the minor leagues until they figure it out, grow-up, toughen up or decide this is what they really want to do. Sadly, many of them don't. In the end its not how quickly you get to the NHL, its how long you stay there.

So If Lee is truly "behind the development curve" and is as raw as you say, just imagine what he might be able to do when IF develops his game by concentrating on hockey.

Since you have tried to discount all of his results from HS to USHL, I ask when does your highly valued "potential" take a back seat to actual "results" Because right now Lee has the results despite his very raw, primal skills. Which in the end may just be another definition for "potential"

This is an open forum, with all us able to express their opinions, but in your case you have always tried to discount Lee as a over-rated player. Only posting if someone has a positive impression of his skills, its very transparent, whether its this forum, MNhock, gopherpuck live, or the USCHO. Please also don't pretend to be some MN homer supporting your local players your agenda reads pretty clear.

I suggest you relax and enjoy the game. Its a good one.
Wow. Just wow. Did i wrong you or something?

Never said Lee made a bad choice. Never said he was over or under rated. With players like Lee you just need time. I am not going to get exited about one year. You can if you choose. It hurt his ranking. Not his devolpment. USHL is just fine. Would you rather have a 19 year old have NHL success, NCAA success, CHL success, or USHL success. Lee dominated the lowest level of competiton for his age level. Its good he dominated.

I watched Lee alot in high school.

He was a guy that relied on a lot of physical tools. He was just bigger stronger and could bully his way any where he wanted. Its a great trait. But hard to judnge just how far it will get him.

Lowering your head and crashin the net is not the best asset at #1 on your list. There were questions about his passing, descion making and all around hockey sense. He was a QB in HS and ran the option. He kept the ball most of the time, but did lead the state in TDs as well.

His USHL were great. Many great USHL players are gone after their draft year. Last year should have been Lee's freshmen year of college. They are outstanding numbers but many in his class were in college. Leddy, LeBlac, Kreider, Buddish, Palmeiri and so on.


He was a guy IMO that just had enough qustions to make him fall. Where was his heart. Several rumors that he wanted to go major D1 football but would play major D1 hockey before lower D1 football. Once other players caught him physicaly would be just an Erik Rasmussen type? I was surprised he fell that far. After a year in college the picture will really play out. Either he can be a powerforward or he is just a big boy on skates.

All i have said about Lee is. I want to wait and see. Thats all. Not bashing. The majority of NHL teams, by drafting, think the same way.

I get you agenda too. Derriere!

Its not to late to change your name to " Captain Blow it Out of Porportion."

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09-01-2010, 12:44 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by MN_Gopher View Post
Wow. Just wow. Did i wrong you or something?

Never said Lee made a bad choice. Never said he was over or under rated. With players like Lee you just need time. I am not going to get exited about one year. You can if you choose. It hurt his ranking. Not his devolpment. USHL is just fine. Would you rather have a 19 year old have NHL success, NCAA success, CHL success, or USHL success. Lee dominated the lowest level of competiton for his age level. Its good he dominated.

I watched Lee alot in high school.

He was a guy that relied on a lot of physical tools. He was just bigger stronger and could bully his way any where he wanted. Its a great trait. But hard to judnge just how far it will get him.

Lowering your head and crashin the net is not the best asset at #1 on your list. There were questions about his passing, descion making and all around hockey sense. He was a QB in HS and ran the option. He kept the ball most of the time, but did lead the state in TDs as well.

His USHL were great. Many great USHL players are gone after their draft year. Last year should have been Lee's freshmen year of college. They are outstanding numbers but many in his class were in college. Leddy, LeBlac, Kreider, Buddish, Palmeiri and so on.


He was a guy IMO that just had enough qustions to make him fall. Where was his heart. Several rumors that he wanted to go major D1 football but would play major D1 hockey before lower D1 football. Once other players caught him physicaly would be just an Erik Rasmussen type? I was surprised he fell that far. After a year in college the picture will really play out. Either he can be a powerforward or he is just a big boy on skates.

All i have said about Lee is. I want to wait and see. Thats all. Not bashing. The majority of NHL teams, by drafting, think the same way.

I get you agenda too. Derriere!

Its not to late to change your name to " Captain Blow it Out of Porportion."
How about a friendly wager then to lighten things up. Keeping the original Bjugstad-Nelson-Lee thread in mind. All three are going to begin their respective college careers here shortly. Yourself and a few other friends expressed doubt Lee should even be mentioned with B&N.

I will wager ever posting on this forum again, if Bjugstad or Nelson post a more productive year than Lee. That wager should be easy for you to take. And if the stars align for Mr. Lee having a more productive season than the other two, you will retire yourself from sharing anymore insightful thoughts.......

Should be easy since Coach Jackson at ND plays a very defensive system.


"Captain blow it out of proportion guy"

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09-01-2010, 12:51 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by ndgolden View Post
How about a friendly wager then to lighten things up. Keeping the original Bjugstad-Nelson-Lee thread in mind. All three are going to begin their respective college careers here shortly. Yourself and a few other friends expressed doubt Lee should even be mentioned with B&N.

I will wager ever posting on this forum again, if Bjugstad or Nelson post a more productive year than Lee. That wager should be easy for you to take. And if the stars align for Mr. Lee having a more productive season than the other two, you will retire yourself from sharing anymore insightful thoughts.......

Should be easy since Coach Jackson at ND plays a very defensive system.


"Captain blow it out of proportion guy"
I would tkae the bet if i get Neslon and Bjustads sophmore years. Lee is a year ahead of them.

I figure Lee will get about 8-12 goals and 5-6 assits.

Bjustad close to 10 and 10

Nelson 7-10 and 8-12.

Putting them all right at 20 points abouts.

But i take it, bye bye.

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09-01-2010, 02:42 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by ndgolden View Post

They are both making the jump because, their "handlers" are riding their current stock value.
Nelson and Bjugstad are going to college next year because their college coaches want them there. I know Nelson was ready to go to the USHL if asked by Hakstol.

I'm sure the UND staff had to consider the fact the Nelson was a first round pick and probably has a shelf-life of 3-4 prior to signing, and did not want to have one of those years go by in the USHL.

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10-09-2010, 10:31 AM
  #59
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I figure Lee will get about 8-12 goals and 5-6 assits.
Well he got 3 in his first game. lol

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10-09-2010, 07:07 PM
  #60
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Must have been cause he's soooo much older than the others

http://www.und.com/sports/m-hockey/r...100810aab.html

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10-09-2010, 11:21 PM
  #61
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This thread is a nice example of how one yahoo can completely derail an otherwise intelligent, well-articulated, thought-provoking thread.

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10-11-2010, 12:04 AM
  #62
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Lets put it this way. dont put so much stock in these HS sr numbers. Unless they're Off the charts.
Bjugstad-A nhl family pedigree that had NOBODY to play with at Blaine. Still went to state.
Nelson-Single-A team beat up or everyone except the dynasty breck.
Anders Lee- Had a ton of talent to play with and create more plays in edina.

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10-11-2010, 12:07 AM
  #63
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BTW heres the number for SR year 2008-09
http://minnesota-high-school-hockey....tatistics.html

A great site thats dying due to funding.

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10-11-2010, 03:47 AM
  #64
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http://www.collegehockeystats.net/1011/recent/all

First weekend 2 games for all

Lee 3G 1A
Bjugstad 0 points(although got kicked out of first game 4 minutes in for checking from behind)
Nelson 0 points

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10-18-2010, 06:44 PM
  #65
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Quite frankly, as a Minnesotan who's seen these three extensively; Anders Lee doesn't even belong in the discussion here. He's a distant third.

As for the other two, Bjugstad's got the upside to be a tremendous player. He's got every tool at his disposal. It'll be interesting to watch his development. Brock Nelson is just an all-around strong hockey player. I think he'll take a very similar direction that a fellow Warroad player and University of North Dakota alum took; that of T.J. Oshie. They're very similar players and once he comes out of that Sioux system he'll be as well rounded as Oshie was/is. I believe Nelson will be the most sure bet out of these three.
Scoring update through 4 games for these three freshman.

Anders Lee 4G 2A - 6pts +3 Hattrick first college game CCHA rookie of the week.

Nick Bjugstad 4G 1A - 1pt.
Brock Nelson 4G - 0pts.

Who did not belong in this discussion again?

Who is a distant third?

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10-18-2010, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ndgolden View Post
Scoring update through 4 games for these three freshman.

Anders Lee 4G 2A - 6pts +3 Hattrick first college game CCHA rookie of the week.

Nick Bjugstad 4G 1A - 1pt.
Brock Nelson 4G - 0pts.

Who did not belong in this discussion again?

Who is a distant third?
yeah for small sample sizes .

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10-18-2010, 10:36 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by ndgolden View Post
Scoring update through 4 games for these three freshman.

Anders Lee 4G 2A - 6pts +3 Hattrick first college game CCHA rookie of the week.

Nick Bjugstad 4G 1A - 1pt.
Brock Nelson 4G - 0pts.

Who did not belong in this discussion again?

Who is a distant third?
Derek Stepan 1st game this season 3G - 3PT
Alex Ovechkin 1st game this season 1A-1PT

Who is the best player in the NHL?

Congrats to Anders Lee for getting a hattrick against the University of Guelph. Point is, be patient, Notre Dame has only played one decent opponent.

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10-19-2010, 06:05 AM
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I'm much more curious how these three compare after the season is completed.

Dunno who'll be the best over the long run, but I don't understand any views that feel Lee shouldn't be in the conversation or is only doing better now because he's older.

After his USHL year, of course he was gonna be more ready for NCAA hockey than the other two. That should have been a given, so nothing is decided yet.

When all is said and done though, Lee will likely be a bigger physical beast than either Bjugstad or Nelson. That alone will give him a pro advantage in several respects. Dunno if his skillset is on par with the other two. Team USA has thus far felt that not to be the case.

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10-19-2010, 06:26 AM
  #69
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Dunno who'll be the best over the long run, but I don't understand any views that feel Lee shouldn't be in the conversation or is only doing better now because he's older.
I guess it all depends what somebody is debating. Who is the better prospect or who will do better this season. In terms of the season Lee most likely will do the best given his situation(age, on a team that will give him more time). Prospect wise I think he is a distant third

It should be pointed out Nelson as 1 assist

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10-19-2010, 07:34 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by FytinSioux View Post
Derek Stepan 1st game this season 3G - 3PT
Alex Ovechkin 1st game this season 1A-1PT

Who is the best player in the NHL?

Congrats to Anders Lee for getting a hattrick against the University of Guelph. Point is, be patient, Notre Dame has only played one decent opponent.
I guess I am in a box on that one. For the record the hat trick was against Holy Cross, which beat the gophers a few years ago who have at one point beaten the Souix. Recording points in 3-4 games is at least consistent.

The original thread was whether he belonged in the same mention of Bjugstad and Nelson. Perhaps it was all a fluke.


Last edited by ndgolden: 10-19-2010 at 07:35 AM. Reason: spell
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10-19-2010, 11:10 AM
  #71
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It's useless comparing Lee to the other two considering he's older, he was drafted in a different year, and he's already played a season in the USHL.

That being said, stats mean nothing. I've only seen two of them actually play a game. I've only seen one of them play a game that really means something. Unless someone here has seen all three of these guys play recently, then this discussion is rather inconsequential.

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10-19-2010, 02:08 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by ndgolden View Post
Scoring update through 4 games for these three freshman.

Anders Lee 4G 2A - 6pts +3 Hattrick first college game CCHA rookie of the week.

Nick Bjugstad 4G 1A - 1pt.
Brock Nelson 4G - 0pts.

Who did not belong in this discussion again?

Who is a distant third?
I like how "G" goes from meaning "goals" to "games played" between the first and second line of your three line statistical comparison.

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10-19-2010, 05:17 PM
  #73
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I guess I am in a box on that one. For the record the hat trick was against Holy Cross, which beat the gophers a few years ago who have at one point beaten the Souix. Recording points in 3-4 games is at least consistent.

The original thread was whether he belonged in the same mention of Bjugstad and Nelson. Perhaps it was all a fluke.
Holy Cross this year (which matters a lot more) is not on the level of competition that the Sioux and Gophers have faced. The Crusaders have also been destroyed by Wisconsin 6-0 and barely beat one of the worst teams in college hockey (AIC). I'd put more stock in that compared to North Dakota facing off against two WCHA teams and Alaska and Minnesota facing off against a conference opponent and a mediocre Hockey East school. This is more just a general thought, but things will even out as the season goes on.

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10-21-2010, 07:09 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by massivegoonery View Post
These posts are spot on. At the USHL level, Lee scores by running people over. He's not going to be able to do that in the NCAA, much less in the NHL.
I always loved that one...

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10-22-2010, 12:12 PM
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WeissFC
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I know this is off topic about what the thread is about, but I figured with the number of Gophers fans and Minnesota natives that were posting they could help me out.

I'm a huge Gophers fan stuck at Indiana University and I'm limited to listening to the games on the computer and the Tribune's Goal Gophers blog so hang with me here.

Just wondering how many years people are projecting Bjugstad and Budish to stay at the U.

Also, curious what people up there think about Lucia right now. I think he's let a lot of talent get away, but at the same time put together a very strong freshmen class this year (would have been even stronger with Ambroz).

Thanks for anyone who responds.

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