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Blade logic fails me - help me out here

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10-19-2010, 12:22 AM
  #1
Copeland
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Blade logic fails me - help me out here

So I went to a public skate today and managed to perform an experiment without having to change the variables myself (don't you love it when that happens? ). First half of the session, then the zamboni comes out, and then the second half of the session I find the ice is much softer and my skates are moving much better on it (I guess it had to do with the +150 people warming up the place....).

Anyway, the question is, if my blades are at 1/2 right now, what do I need to do to them to get that better glide and control I had on the softer ice, but on the usual (hard-ish) ice? Deeper hollow, shallower, what? I can't really wrap my head around it, to be honest...

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10-19-2010, 12:46 AM
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The Chel
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pretty sure its harder ice, deeper hollow... softer ice, shallow hollow

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10-19-2010, 01:23 AM
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kr580
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Casciaro is right. You would want to go to a deeper hollow, from 1/2" down to 7/16" or 3/8", to get more grip on hard ice.


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10-19-2010, 02:18 AM
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OK thanks will try that!!

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10-19-2010, 03:00 AM
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kr580
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Oh, I re-read your original post and missed the "glide and control" part. For more grip (I'm assuming that's control?) you would go deeper (7/16 or 3/8) but for more glide you would have to go up to a shallower hollow like 5/8. You can't get both more glide and bite at the same time with traditional ROH... you either get a lot of bite, a lot of glide or in the middle with a little of both.


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10-19-2010, 12:12 PM
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jsykes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kr580 View Post
Casciaro is right. You would want to go to a deeper hollow, from 1/2" down to 9/16" or 3/8", to get more grip on hard ice.
9/16 is a shallower hollow than 1/2.

If you're at a half and want a sharper blade to cut into the ice more, you'll want to go down to 7/16 or 3/8.

If you want more glide, you'll go up to 9/16 or 5/8.

Glide and control go hand in hand, but are opposites. If you want more glide, you go to a shallower hollow, but will get less bite. If you want more bite, go to a deeper hollow, but will get less glide cause the blade digs into the ice more. Finding the right balance is the key and often requires experimenting and will also change from rink to rink depending on the quality of the ice.

That is the reasoning behind the new flat bottom sharpening systems, to get the glide of a shallower hollow, while still the bite of a sharper one.

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10-19-2010, 12:37 PM
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Jarick
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Try going to FBV, you can get more bite AND more glide.

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10-19-2010, 01:07 PM
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kr580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsykes View Post
9/16 is a shallower hollow than 1/2.
D'oh, I knew that looked wrong. Thanks for correcting me.

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10-19-2010, 02:01 PM
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94now
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Add the rocker into overall confusion.
Proper rocker may get you the perfection of speed and control you are looking for. Or it could screw everything up for you.

The flatter the blade (from hill to toes) the less is the rocker. The more cut from hill and toes areas taken the bigger the rocker. Rocker will allow you to turn with ease without sacrificing the speed that come with shallow hollow of your blade. Mark Messier used to sharpen his skates at 1" hollow radius. That is something only goalies do, cause they can't tolerate any significance of "bite". But Mark had blades cut with big rocker. That allowed combo of speed and agility.

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10-19-2010, 03:33 PM
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dpixel8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
Try going to FBV, you can get more bite AND more glide.

not unless you feel like buying thicker steel.

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10-19-2010, 10:54 PM
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budster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsykes View Post
9/16 is a shallower hollow than 1/2.

If you're at a half and want a sharper blade to cut into the ice more, you'll want to go down to 7/16 or 3/8.

If you want more glide, you'll go up to 9/16 or 5/8.

Glide and control go hand in hand, but are opposites. If you want more glide, you go to a shallower hollow, but will get less bite. If you want more bite, go to a deeper hollow, but will get less glide cause the blade digs into the ice more. Finding the right balance is the key and often requires experimenting and will also change from rink to rink depending on the quality of the ice.

That is the reasoning behind the new flat bottom sharpening systems, to get the glide of a shallower hollow, while still the bite of a sharper one.
I totally endorse this post. Ice temp and player size/ability play a factor as well. Like most hockey equipment, experimentation is key--at least that's how it's been for me. I almost never get it right the first time. This article has picture examples of the different hollows if you are a visual learner.

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10-20-2010, 02:26 AM
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Copeland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpixel8 View Post
not unless you feel like buying thicker steel.
Elaborate?

And wow, I never thought about the rocker before... But considering I'm a beginner, I don't think I want to be messing around with that yet! Seems like too much lol. And on the topic of beginners, would going with FBV hinder my skating development in any way? Or should I stick with ROH and sacrifice either glide or grip? How much more (or less) often would I have to get the blades re-sharpened if I go with FBV?

I'm kinda wishing I never had that feel of the softer ice now...

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10-20-2010, 08:48 AM
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Jarick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpixel8 View Post
not unless you feel like buying thicker steel.
There's absolutely no need to change your steel with FBV, unless you use some very, very strange skate blades.

Quote:
And wow, I never thought about the rocker before... But considering I'm a beginner, I don't think I want to be messing around with that yet! Seems like too much lol. And on the topic of beginners, would going with FBV hinder my skating development in any way? Or should I stick with ROH and sacrifice either glide or grip? How much more (or less) often would I have to get the blades re-sharpened if I go with FBV?
What kind of skates are you using? I usually wouldn't mess with rocker or profile unless you know what you want. I paid a shop $40 to mess with it and it didn't make a difference. But when I switched skates, I had to have them adjust the rocker and pitch to get back to my old skate feel.

FBV is just a different way to sharpen skates that's IMO much better. Traditionally, you cut out a semi-circle from the steel, and you either go deeper for more bite and less glide, or shallower for less bite and more glide. FBV instead grinds a wide flat spot in the middle of the blade with two little sharp edges, and basically they can adjust the amount of bite by the angle/height of those edges and the amount of glide is maximized by the flat spot in the middle. IMO the FBV equivalent of 1/2" bite feels like it's got the glide of over a 1" sharpening. My turns and stops are tighter and I can hear/see the blades digging in more, but when gliding you don't feel the blades cutting into the ice and slowing you down. There are no drawbacks...I've been using it for a year, and I've never heard anybody with serious complaints about it (other than people who were great skaters and didn't want to feel any different on the ice).


Last edited by Jarick: 10-20-2010 at 08:56 AM.
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10-20-2010, 11:34 AM
  #14
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How much do you weigh, Copeland? I'm using 1/2" and I'm about 118lbs. I thought at first that I would need to go to a deeper hollow because I'm lighter, but now that I'm getting better at skating, I can tell that things like stopping are actually a little bit easier if the edges are not too grippy. It seems counter-intuitive, I know. I think you'll find as your skating improves, you'll be better at making the correct angle of your blade on the ice, and your feet won't slip from under you as much.

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10-21-2010, 12:05 AM
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Copeland
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beth - well, that's exactly why I found this "experiment" so valuable, because it showed me that I *can* have a better skating experience right now... somehow I don't think my skating ability improved in the 15 or so minutes it took for the ice to be resurfaced . So if I can have that better feel of the ice right now by just changing the cut on my blades, why not? Don't need to make my life harder by thinking "I'll get better with time" if I can do better right now with a simple adjustment. But your point about stopping and grip is interesting, I will definitely keep that in mind!

Jarick - I'm using Bauer One35 skates, bought them back in mid August and have only sharpened them the one time at 1/2. They don't feel like they need a re-sharpening, but because of this whole incident I'm considering changing things around... If I do end up going with FBV, what would you recommend I ask for??

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10-21-2010, 08:43 AM
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Jarick
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From what I recall...

FBV 100/75 ~ 3/8"
FBV 100/50 ~ 1/2"
FBV 90/75 ~ 5/8"
FBV 90/50 ~ 3/4"

I was skating between 5/8 and 3/4 before moving to FBV, went to 90/75 and wanted more bite, then went to 100/50 and have been perfectly happy since.

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10-24-2010, 12:17 AM
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Copeland
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OK, so I did it...

Went with 100/50, will test it out on Monday. I'm a little worried about the unfamiliarity factor but oh well, if I fall I'll just have to suck it up. Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions!

I just hope I don't end up regretting it lol.

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10-24-2010, 09:01 AM
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Jarick
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Shouldn't take more than a few minutes to get used to it, just get to warmups earlier and test all your edges and stops.

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10-26-2010, 08:05 PM
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beth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Copeland View Post
OK, so I did it...

Went with 100/50, will test it out on Monday. I'm a little worried about the unfamiliarity factor but oh well, if I fall I'll just have to suck it up. Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions!

I just hope I don't end up regretting it lol.
How did your new experiment go??

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10-27-2010, 02:53 AM
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Copeland
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Ehhh... so it took pretty much the whole session (1.5h) to get sorta used to them, haha I guess when you're a beginner adjustment time is in a whole 'nother dimension. Especially since I nearly tripped on an outside edge on my first stop seconds after stepping on the ice and developed a nice little mental barrier that took quite a while to get over...

I still don't trust them enough to feel as comfortable going backwards as I did before the change (I'd just gotten the hang of it), though unfortunately I didn't get much of a chance to practice this during the session. Hopefully I can work on this on Thursday.

Glide was much nicer, absolutely. Kinda feel like there might be a little too much grip, but on the other hand I think that may be a trust issue (that mental barrier).

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10-27-2010, 10:51 AM
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beth
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I hate those mental barriers! Stupid brain!

Hopefully your new FBV just needs some getting used to. Otherwise, just bring them back to your sharpener and tell him what problems you're having with them and maybe he can adjust them to suit you better.

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10-27-2010, 11:39 AM
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Jarick
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If it still feels too grippy after the next skate, try 90/75. The beauty with FBV is that you really only have to adjust to the amount of bite, not the sharpness/glide/etc.

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