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The Habs should have kept Guy Boucher

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Old
10-19-2010, 09:18 AM
  #151
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Look at the talent the Lightning have. They're a goalie away from being atop 3 team in the East.

I don't think you fire Martin after 1 season where he got you to further than any other coach has in 17 years. I don't care if he rode on the backs of Halak and Cam. You just don't do it.

If they miss the playoffs this year, and there is a better option, you fire him. Done.

Guy is still unproven in the NHL....let's wait till the season's doen to start crying foull.

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10-19-2010, 10:02 AM
  #152
LyleOdelein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherbrookeW View Post
It isn't ridiculous to think of having Martin step aside for Boucher. Remember, Sam Pollock, who everyone agrees is the greatest of all GM's, actually removed a Stanley Cup winning coach, Al Macneil, immediately after his having won the Cup! Why? Because he thought the replacement, Scotty Bowman, was a better candidate. Yes, of course, Scotty had coached St. Louis well to that point -- but no one could have known for certain that he would emerge as the greatest of all hockey coaches; Pollock's shrewdness lay in making the move and not giving a damn if it looked a little crazy.
Revisionist history at its best.

MacNeil was not removed in order to make way for Bowman; although that turned out to be a fantastic consequence of the demotion. MacNeil lost his job because Henri Richard publicly berated him after being benched by the coach. In the cultural tinderbox that Quebec was at the time, this feud between a francophone cultural icon/legendary Habs player and an anglophone coach was exponentially overblown. MacNeil would receive death threats and ended up coaching game 6 of the Stanley Cup Finals at the Forum with a police escort on the bench beside him.

The Habs would win the cup in game 7. Henri Richard would prove to be the hero. However, the tensions caused by these events meant someone had to go. Pollack had a choice between H. Richard and Al MacNeil for the Habs in the 1971-72 season: Richard would end up taking over the captaincy of the team and MacNeil would end up in the minors.

Hiring Bowman turned out to be a managerial masterstroke in the end, but the acquisition of a new coach was forced on Pollack by the situation. His staffing choice was brilliant, but he really didn't orchestrate the whole situation in the way you (and others I've seen around here) have implied.


Last edited by LyleOdelein: 10-19-2010 at 10:10 AM.
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Old
10-19-2010, 10:04 AM
  #153
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Would you trade Markov because you got Subban?

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10-19-2010, 10:12 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by la25ecoupe View Post
Would you trade Markov because you got Subban?
Incredibly, some fans want to do just that

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10-19-2010, 10:24 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
Look at the talent the Lightning have. They're a goalie away from being atop 3 team in the East.
Not with that defense they're not.

Although it's interesting that they've got a better transition game with worse D-men than the Habs.

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10-19-2010, 10:24 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by la25ecoupe View Post
Would you trade Markov because you got Subban?
There's 6 D-men on a team. You can have both, so it doesn't apply.

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Old
10-19-2010, 10:43 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Not with that defense they're not.

Although it's interesting that they've got a better transition game with worse D-men than the Habs.
They aren't that bad and once Ohlund returns will be better.Once Hamrlik,Gill and Spacek are gone,our transition game will be better I have no doubt about it

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10-19-2010, 10:47 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by LyleOdelein View Post
Revisionist history at its best.

MacNeil was not removed in order to make way for Bowman; although that turned out to be a fantastic consequence of the demotion. MacNeil lost his job because Henri Richard publicly berated him after being benched by the coach. In the cultural tinderbox that Quebec was at the time, this feud between a francophone cultural icon/legendary Habs player and an anglophone coach was exponentially overblown. MacNeil would receive death threats and ended up coaching game 6 of the Stanley Cup Finals at the Forum with a police escort on the bench beside him.

The Habs would win the cup in game 7. Henri Richard would prove to be the hero. However, the tensions caused by these events meant someone had to go. Pollack had a choice between H. Richard and Al MacNeil for the Habs in the 1971-72 season: Richard would end up taking over the captaincy of the team and MacNeil would end up in the minors.

Hiring Bowman turned out to be a managerial masterstroke in the end, but the acquisition of a new coach was forced on Pollack by the situation. His staffing choice was brilliant, but he really didn't orchestrate the whole situation in the way you (and others I've seen around here) have implied.
You've provided an accurate recounting of those events. The only flaw was your misspelling of Pollock as "Pollack." Incidentally, a pollock is an Atlantic food fish.

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10-19-2010, 10:50 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by la25ecoupe View Post
Would you trade Markov because you got Subban?
Absurd question. Would you have traded Savard or Lapointe because you got Robinsdon?

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10-19-2010, 10:55 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
You've provided an accurate recounting of those events. The only flaw was your misspelling of Pollock as "Pollack." Incidentally, a pollock is an Atlantic food fish.
Touche. On that note, I'm really craving some imitation crab meat right now. Mmm, pollock.

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10-19-2010, 11:53 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
They aren't that bad and once Ohlund returns will be better.
Even if you're correct, I expect better from a top-3-in-conference team than they "aren't that bad" at the most important position in hockey.

Do you think Tampa has a better blueline corps than Montreal, really? Assuming Ohlund and Markov are both healthy.

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10-19-2010, 12:02 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Even if you're correct, I expect better from a top-3-in-conference team than they "aren't that bad" at the most important position in hockey.

Do you think Tampa has a better blueline corps than Montreal, really? Assuming Ohlund and Markov are both healthy.
I don't think they are better defensively than the Habs,however they do have a better offence IMO.It's hard being in the top 3,for sure there is Pittsburgh and Washington but after that if Tampa would get a top goalie could easily be that 3rd team and have the offence to match both Pittsburgh's and Washington's

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Old
10-19-2010, 02:48 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by 23Hab View Post
I know Boucher is good, but what were they supposed to do? Fire Martin after being the 27th team out. Life don`t work that way.

Their having a good start also, let`s give them time.
It happened to Halak.. lol!! Traded ~ fired no?

Martin didn't lead the Habs in the play-offs. Cammalleri and Halak did. But mostly Halak.. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Do I like Martin? He's alright. He did decided to let Halak stay in nets for the Habs. Smart move. But If the organization believed in the Long run with Price, I agree that the same can be said about Boucher.

The big difference is this.. Gauthier and Martin have a long history. They are good friends. They stick together. Halak isn't a good friend to Martin or Gauthier.. So that's how this differs IMO.

You want more examples? Auld. Out of any back-up the Habs could have had (Ellis included) why Auld? Auld was Martin's goalie back in Florida.. Perry Pearn. Worked alongside Martin in Ottawa. Pierre Groulx. Worked in Florida with Martin.

Gautier and Martin are too close.. Gauthier will never fire Martin unless the team really really suck....

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Originally Posted by HotSnakes View Post
If Gainey fired Carbo why Gauthier can't do the same with Martin?
Gainey did fire Carbo when they were playing like crap.. No confidence, bad plays, too many turnovers caused because the players were always panicking, etc. When asked what to do about it, Carbo publicly said he had no more answers. Carbo is a no BS type of guy. That's why I liked him in some ways. But everyone is different and we don't know in detail exactly why Gainey fired him. Gauthier can fire Martin, but only when they really struggle and after giving him some chances IMO.

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Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
Oh jesus, are we back to the old Carbo/Gainey conspiracies again?

Coaches have input on player decisions. The team clearly tried to get Dan Ellis and couldn't sign him, he wanted a chance to be a number one. Remember? Auld was the second choice, as far as we know, and perhaps even further down the list. Biron signed really fast in New York, didn't seem overly interested either.

I mean, if you want strange coaches getting guys on the roster decisions, explain to me why Michael Vernace is in the NHL? Guy Boucher had him for the playoff run (Brisebois acquired him) and seems to have taken a shining to the guy, now he's in the NHL. It happens on every team.

What baffles me is the stupid double standard.

People piss on the playoff run, saying it was all two players (Cammy and Halak). Yet, they praise Boucher, forgetting that Stamkos and St. Louis are a major part of their early season success. You can't have it both ways.

Did the team overachieve last year? Probably, but it was still the best run in a long time and I wouldn't throw the coach who was there for it on his ass because of that. Anyone here who thinks its was all magic and took no coaching is just letting their prejudices color things. Lots of players were good in the playoffs last year, like Moore, Lapierre, Subban (a less experienced coach may not have given him the ice time, for example), Gorges and Gill... to name a few. It was not two guys.

Boucher for all his genius took a favored team to the exact same stage Montreal made it in the AHL and blew it. Does that mean he's a bad coach? Not really, but to me, the only real way I can measure the success of a coach is exceeding or failing to meet expectations. If a team vastly overachieves or underachieves, that's usually an indication of a good coach.
Where did I mention Gainey or Carbo in my original post?

Auld was still one of many goalies to back Price up.. Auld = Sanford. So why Auld?

And how is it pissing on the play-off run when I mention the people responsible for the success? Halak was outstanding! I haven't seen a goalie do so many key saves has he did in a long time in a Habs uniform.. But when the scoring went flat, the team folded. Pouliot, O goals in entire play-offs. Markov injured, I love Plecky but he wasn't able to contribute much in the 3rd round, etc. I have nothing against Price or the rest of the team but you don't make it far in the Play-offs without an MVP and Halak was the MVP on the Habs team.. And he was traded for a guy that has a higher potential.. That's that the topic is.. I'm not pissing on the team's success...

The point of the article is not to throw Martin out on his ass.. The point is why does the organization use the argument that they made the Halak move for the "long run" suggesting that it's cheaper to keep Price and his potential might be higher than Halak, yet the same thing can be said about Martin and Boucher. Boucher had a lot of success in the juniors and seems like he's got lots of potential and he's cheaper than Martin right? Like Price had a lot of success in junior, has a lot of potential and is cheaper than Halak.. But Halak is gone but Martin is not. That is the argument. Not "look how Boucher has success in Tampa." That's not my argument anyways.

I just said the difference between Halak and Martin is that Martin is friends with Gautier. You can also argue that you can't trade a coach and get something in return. But you can with Halak.

In all cases only time will tell what was the better call. Martin or Boucher; Halak or Price.

I just hope that the best choice was Martin and Price.. lol!!!


Last edited by Belso: 10-19-2010 at 02:53 PM.
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Old
10-19-2010, 03:41 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Even if you're correct, I expect better from a top-3-in-conference team than they "aren't that bad" at the most important position in hockey.

Do you think Tampa has a better blueline corps than Montreal, really? Assuming Ohlund and Markov are both healthy.
On offence, I give the edge to Tampa. However, Montreal is much better on defense and especially in net!

Basically, Montreal has, in my opinion, a better team but Tampa has a much better coach, in spite of his so-called "inexperience".

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10-19-2010, 03:55 PM
  #165
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so who is gonna protesting outside the bell center to get guy boucher??
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yes my post is ridiculous, just as ridiculous as this article.

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Old
10-19-2010, 03:58 PM
  #166
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Anybody making any kind of conclusion on both teams and coaches after only 5 games is either showing their agenda, or their lack of logic.

Let's see the Bolts play an entire season before we bring out the champane or the razor blades.

Ok ok ok, even if we win, some of you can still have the razor blades, seeing how you like'em so much.

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Old
10-19-2010, 04:28 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by saints96 View Post
so who is gonna protesting outside the bell center to get guy boucher??
yes my post is ridiculous, just as ridiculous as this article.
What's really ridiculous is mounting protests about hockey teams' personnel decision.

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Old
10-19-2010, 08:16 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Belso View Post
Where did I mention Gainey or Carbo in my original post?

Auld was still one of many goalies to back Price up.. Auld = Sanford. So why Auld?
My point about Gainey/Carbo was this random, completely made up, "general agreement" among some people on this forum that Gainey would never fire Carbo because they're friends...

Naturally, that turned out to be totally fabricated, but you wouldn't believe how many people swore by it.

You were basically just reusing that same line of logic with your assumption that Gauthier would never, ever fire Martin unless he was totally screwed.

...and Auld does not equal Sanford. Not even close. Auld, like him or not, has been in the NHL for a long time and is a proven veteran backup. Sanford had cups of tea, but never stuck full time in the NHL.

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Old
10-19-2010, 08:32 PM
  #169
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I don't know how that argument is valid? He's equating coaching and goaltending.

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10-19-2010, 09:07 PM
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
My point about Gainey/Carbo was this random, completely made up, "general agreement" among some people on this forum that Gainey would never fire Carbo because they're friends...

Naturally, that turned out to be totally fabricated, but you wouldn't believe how many people swore by it.

You were basically just reusing that same line of logic with your assumption that Gauthier would never, ever fire Martin unless he was totally screwed.
I know that you won't believe this but I trust who told me this... Gainey firing Carbo was NOT his decision, but rather Boivin's. Now blast away about the credibility, I don't care.

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10-19-2010, 09:46 PM
  #171
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I know that you won't believe this but I trust who told me this... Gainey firing Carbo was NOT his decision, but rather Boivin's. Now blast away about the credibility, I don't care.
Personally, I think Gainey would have fired Carbo after the first season if he really didn't care.
I think any coach that would have let the team turn into such a hole in the 1st season would likely have been fired.
I also think Carbo would have been fired if it had happened on another team.

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Old
10-22-2010, 08:50 PM
  #172
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he's winning again!!

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10-22-2010, 10:36 PM
  #173
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he's winning again!!
get over t and cheer for TB

PS:I. deleting this stupid thread and putting La25ecoupe in my ignore list

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Old
10-22-2010, 11:50 PM
  #174
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Habs should have kept Bowman.

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