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Old
10-18-2010, 07:43 PM
  #26
Horatio Caine
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It hurts to see that CHI fans think that a proven young no.3 cheap dman, who's playing no.1-2 right now, has the same value than a good prospect.

No disrespect for Beach, but Gorges is, arguably, MTL's top dman since the Olympics, and one of the best leaders in the organization. His value is really high right now.

So, if the Hawks want Gorges, they'll have to overpay.

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10-18-2010, 08:30 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Horatio Caine View Post
So, if the Hawks want Gorges, they'll have to overpay.
And of course, they won't, because afterall they have Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, and at some point Campbell. So why overpay for another top-4 guy? I guess in theory it would let them move Campbell? But then if that was something doable, it would have been done before all the other moves in the summer. So no, Hawks fans seem to be thinking that Gorges would be a really nice ideal perfect (and affordable) high quality #5 guy, perhaps, or who could step up into the top-4 when one of the others is injured. Fair enough to want that, but the reality is that Gorges' value has gone way past that.

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10-19-2010, 08:16 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
And of course, they won't, because afterall they have Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, and at some point Campbell. So why overpay for another top-4 guy? I guess in theory it would let them move Campbell? But then if that was something doable, it would have been done before all the other moves in the summer. So no, Hawks fans seem to be thinking that Gorges would be a really nice ideal perfect (and affordable) high quality #5 guy, perhaps, or who could step up into the top-4 when one of the others is injured. Fair enough to want that, but the reality is that Gorges' value has gone way past that.
Only to the Habs.There is no room on Hawks top 4,so his value to the Hawks is little to none.They need a solid,dependable 5/6 dman.You want Brouwer,find a dman that fits the Hawks need,and we'll talk.

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10-19-2010, 08:23 AM
  #29
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I realize what Gorges brings to the Habs, and I'm tempted to overpay for him. Brouwer and a 2nd should be enough IMO.

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10-19-2010, 09:41 AM
  #30
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Josh Gorges is only 26. He leads the Habs in ice time and has 3 points so far in 5 games.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8470324

Possibly one if not THE most underrated players in the entire NHL, in my opinion.

He's not going anywhere as it would create a huge hole in Montreal's defense.

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10-19-2010, 10:20 AM
  #31
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No I'm not, far from there. You're talking about Pacioretty or Maxwell as if THEY are throw-in or worthless, which is far from being the case. Should Montreal add more? Perhaps and that's why I had put (a pick) in the proposal. Perhaps another prospect? Either way, I'm not downplaying the value of anyone here, but I certainly think that you are.

Of course I'm not appreciating the greatness that is MaxPac. Look at the Hawks team and tell me where he'd play. Hawks have a BUNCH of similiar prospects who are all looking for NHL icetime - so MaxPac has minimal value to the Hawks right now. And while he might have been rushed - MP has scored a total of 14 goals over the last 140 games he's played (combination of the AHL/NHL games). I'm not knowledgeable enough about the Habs prospects to say if he's had injury or other issues that kept him from being more productive, but that's not good for a guy who is about to turn 23.

In 68 games last year Beach put up 52g/34a to lead the WHL in goalscoring. He's definetely got a lot of maturing to do (and it wouldn't surprise me to see him bust) - but I don't honestly see how an unbiased fan could evaluate MP & KB and consider them to have similiar potential. Maybe I'm just being a rampant homer - but I consider Beach to be a potential impact player, and with the depth of the Hawks organization, moving him for a lesser prospect & pick would be counterproductive.

And just to reiterate - I said I didn't think the Habs would trade Gorges for Beach. I completely agree that he's WAY to valuable in his current role to trade for a high risk/reward prospect like Beach.

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10-19-2010, 10:21 AM
  #32
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Somebody brought up a very good point about his value being super high to the habs, not in general.

Fair enough but doesn't that prove our point all along that you're going to have to overpay to get him? He might not be as valuable to other teams as he is to ours but mark my words by the end of the season he will be. He's definitely one of the most underrated players in the NHL. The guy makes few to no mistakes per game. He isn't a score sheet type of guy but even that remains to be proven, he seems to have upped his offensive game a decent bit this year.

Bottom line, he's a 26 year old responsible d-man, he's got a great attitude, he's a leader, he isn't some party animal or one of those kinds of players, he has a great head on his shoulders and any team should want him. Sure his value for us is greater than it is from your point of view, that can be said about almost any good player for their team. He brings a lot to the team and he'd bring a lot to yours.

Now I'm not trying to say the Beach deal was fair but the poster did mention a possible pick being thrown on top to even things out. It's not that far off from the scope of reality.

Also the Pacioretty addition imo doesn't make sense because they aren't looking to add future wingers, a pick in place of that might be better.

The hawks would be nearly unstoppable if they added Gorges to their d lineup, hows that for value?

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10-19-2010, 10:30 AM
  #33
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Fyi: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=99420

Injured most of his development years and still playing good at the AHL level considering several injuries and being rushed to the NHL.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=90922

Beach - injured a few times as well during development? Very mediocre stats whenever given a chance in the AHL aside from a playoff stint and this year.

Not saying Max Pac is better than Beach far from it, but anyone trying to say they aren't similar based on WHL stats... it's ridiculous. That's like me citing Max Pac's USHL ppg stats and saying Beach took 5 years in the WHL to even achieve above ppg stats. It's not a fair argument and if you're going to say one takes longer to develop for being a power forward the same can be said about Max Pac. Beach looks to maybe have a bit more potential and he's younger but both have really proven nothing at the AHL level, actually Max Pac has proven more and has even put up some points in the NHL.

Sure his development is stunted, but he isn't just a pile of crap throw in. I'd consider Maxwell way more of a throw in then I would Max Pac.

Remember we're comparing a 11th overall versus a 22nd overall that has way more development than the other. Sure one of them has a lot of potential (Beach) but he's proven much less. What he did in the WHL is almost meaningless, like I said it's like me citing Max's USHL stats or Latendresse's Q stats... come on that isn't a fair argument. Potential is potential, don't get me wrong I wouldn't trade a guy with Crosby potential for a slightly more proven guy with less potential, but you guys talk like it's the difference of Crosby potential and Turner Stephenson potential when it really isn't.

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Old
10-19-2010, 10:43 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krazyhawk View Post
Only to the Habs.There is no room on Hawks top 4,so his value to the Hawks is little to none.They need a solid,dependable 5/6 dman.You want Brouwer,find a dman that fits the Hawks need,and we'll talk.
I think O'Byrne will be a solid, dependable #5/6 dman in the NHL, as soon as some team is willing to invest just that little bit of confidence and regular playing time in him. But I don't see how the Hawks really need more than that, Cullimore and Boynton - despite any panic attacks about off games - are adequate enough placeholders already. I guess teams want the Rolls Royce version even in their #5/6 slots, and we don't have one of those to offer, but really the Hawks have a top-4 that should cover 50 minutes a night, so it isn't something you should look too hard for. If the guys like Cullimore and Boynton can't handle it, visit the waiver wire or recall Connelly or something.

I don't especially want Brouwer. Maybe the OP did. I don't see any fit here. If we have any surplus D, they are either too expensive (Hamrlik/Spacek/Gill), or not established/good enough yet (Picard/O'Byrne/Carle). Gorges is simply too good, like Markov and Subban he is "untouchable" at present.

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10-19-2010, 10:49 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
I realize what Gorges brings to the Habs, and I'm tempted to overpay for him. Brouwer and a 2nd should be enough IMO.
Not interested... Gorges is too important to the Habs. A 2nd doesn't mean anything. Make it a 1st and I still wouldn't listen. Like for the Hawks, picks and prospects aren't really of importance at this time, they don't add real weight to a trade offer right now. The Habs want to make the playoffs. Gorges is a key component to that. By "overpay", we'd want the overpayment in present-tense impact on the team, not in futures.

Which is why Gorges is "untouchable". Why should a team "overpay" and give up a clearly better player? There is no motivation for anybody to do that.

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10-19-2010, 10:49 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
Of course I'm not appreciating the greatness that is MaxPac. Look at the Hawks team and tell me where he'd play. Hawks have a BUNCH of similiar prospects who are all looking for NHL icetime - so MaxPac has minimal value to the Hawks right now. And while he might have been rushed - MP has scored a total of 14 goals over the last 140 games he's played (combination of the AHL/NHL games). I'm not knowledgeable enough about the Habs prospects to say if he's had injury or other issues that kept him from being more productive, but that's not good for a guy who is about to turn 23.

In 68 games last year Beach put up 52g/34a to lead the WHL in goalscoring. He's definetely got a lot of maturing to do (and it wouldn't surprise me to see him bust) - but I don't honestly see how an unbiased fan could evaluate MP & KB and consider them to have similiar potential. Maybe I'm just being a rampant homer - but I consider Beach to be a potential impact player, and with the depth of the Hawks organization, moving him for a lesser prospect & pick would be counterproductive.

And just to reiterate - I said I didn't think the Habs would trade Gorges for Beach. I completely agree that he's WAY to valuable in his current role to trade for a high risk/reward prospect like Beach.
As an unbiased fan (as you state), you'll also recognize that comparing numbers in junior hockey with those at the pro level is far from fair. Guy Carbonneau won the scoring title in the CHL one year and he became a defensive specialist. Stephan Lebeau won the scoring title in the AHL one year and he had a relatively low key career in the NHL. You see where I'm going I guess...

Again, I'm not comparing MaxPac with Beach, far from there. Someone said that they wouldn't take MaxPac because the Hawks have too many similar prospects. I was simply suggesting that by taking one and removing one keeps the numbers the same. I've also mentioned a center in Ben Maxwell.

Speaking of unbiased, not that they hold the entire truth, but Hockey's Future (you know, the site we're using here ) ranks Beach as a 7.5C. MaxPac is a 7.5B while Maxwell is a 6.5B... We're talking apples with apples here.

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10-19-2010, 10:54 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
...Again, I'm not comparing MaxPac with Beach, far from there. Someone said that they wouldn't take MaxPac because the Hawks have too many similar prospects. I was simply suggesting that by taking one and removing one keeps the numbers the same. I've also mentioned a center in Ben Maxwell. ...
Seems like an unnecessary sidetrack to me... Beach > Pacioretty > Maxwell. That's not really a problem for me. It basically follows their draft position. Beach's value is coloured by concerns about his antics. Pacioretty's is coloured by his perhaps-too-hasty-exposure to the NHL. Maxwell's coloured by his perimeter tendencies/inability to stick yet. Let all that wash out, and you still have Beach > Pacioretty > Maxwell on raw draft position, I'd say.

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10-19-2010, 12:58 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
As an unbiased fan (as you state), you'll also recognize that comparing numbers in junior hockey with those at the pro level is far from fair. Guy Carbonneau won the scoring title in the CHL one year and he became a defensive specialist. Stephan Lebeau won the scoring title in the AHL one year and he had a relatively low key career in the NHL. You see where I'm going I guess...

Again, I'm not comparing MaxPac with Beach, far from there. Someone said that they wouldn't take MaxPac because the Hawks have too many similar prospects. I was simply suggesting that by taking one and removing one keeps the numbers the same. I've also mentioned a center in Ben Maxwell.

Speaking of unbiased, not that they hold the entire truth, but Hockey's Future (you know, the site we're using here ) ranks Beach as a 7.5C. MaxPac is a 7.5B while Maxwell is a 6.5B... We're talking apples with apples here.
Agree with everything your saying here.

Again - I'm not directly comparing MaxPac & Beach based on Beach's WHL stats. It's just my opinion that Beach has a higher upside compared to MaxPac based on what each player has accomplished since being drafted in whichever league they've played.

And again, just IMO, but using the HF rankings to compare guys who were drafted 3+ years ago is a pretty poor way to go about doing player evaluations. I'm never really sold on inter-team comparison's, and it also seems like guys rankings at 18 YO aren't updated on a regular basis as they develop (or fail to) along the way.

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10-19-2010, 03:46 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
Agree with everything your saying here.

Again - I'm not directly comparing MaxPac & Beach based on Beach's WHL stats. It's just my opinion that Beach has a higher upside compared to MaxPac based on what each player has accomplished since being drafted in whichever league they've played.

And again, just IMO, but using the HF rankings to compare guys who were drafted 3+ years ago is a pretty poor way to go about doing player evaluations. I'm never really sold on inter-team comparison's, and it also seems like guys rankings at 18 YO aren't updated on a regular basis as they develop (or fail to) along the way.
One thing I do agree with however with Beach is the C at the end, due to his off-ice history. I think that the prospects mentioned do have a similar potential, depending on the teams' needs.

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10-19-2010, 06:20 PM
  #40
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How about you guys take Picard from us? Cheap and can play 5/6th defenceman role. Picard+1st for Brouwer+3th?

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Old
10-20-2010, 02:34 AM
  #41
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In today's cap world I think the Hawks would agree on Brouwer for a 1st and a second tier prospect without hesitation, Habs would probably pull something like this at the deadline or at least after January you don't wanna commit suicide by trading a top 10 pick for him, so you wait it out a bit.

He's worth a 20+ pick and a guy like Max Pac or Weber

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10-20-2010, 04:57 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Zeroknowledge View Post
In today's cap world I think the Hawks would agree on Brouwer for a 1st and a second tier prospect without hesitation, Habs would probably pull something like this at the deadline or at least after January you don't wanna commit suicide by trading a top 10 pick for him, so you wait it out a bit.

He's worth a 20+ pick and a guy like Max Pac or Weber
Well... Troy Brouwer is good but not worth 1st pick + Weber/Pacioretty.

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Old
10-20-2010, 05:09 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
Of course I'm not appreciating the greatness that is MaxPac. Look at the Hawks team and tell me where he'd play. Hawks have a BUNCH of similiar prospects who are all looking for NHL icetime - so MaxPac has minimal value to the Hawks right now. And while he might have been rushed - MP has scored a total of 14 goals over the last 140 games he's played (combination of the AHL/NHL games). I'm not knowledgeable enough about the Habs prospects to say if he's had injury or other issues that kept him from being more productive, but that's not good for a guy who is about to turn 23.

In 68 games last year Beach put up 52g/34a to lead the WHL in goalscoring. He's definetely got a lot of maturing to do (and it wouldn't surprise me to see him bust) - but I don't honestly see how an unbiased fan could evaluate MP & KB and consider them to have similiar potential. Maybe I'm just being a rampant homer - but I consider Beach to be a potential impact player, and with the depth of the Hawks organization, moving him for a lesser prospect & pick would be counterproductive.

And just to reiterate - I said I didn't think the Habs would trade Gorges for Beach. I completely agree that he's WAY to valuable in his current role to trade for a high risk/reward prospect like Beach.
Patches has had some pretty bad injuries, and last year in the NHL and AHL after season he came out and admitted to be battling through a broken collarbone for 10 months

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Well... Troy Brouwer is good but not worth 1st pick + Weber/Pacioretty.
Agreed, Id give up a 1st and a third tier prospect, like desharnais or trotter, But palushaj, weber, Patches, Maxwell, White IMO right now in the AHL are as close to untouchable as they come relative to a trade for brouwer

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