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Fighting has lost its way

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Old
10-09-2010, 10:52 PM
  #1
angry pirate
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Fighting has lost its way

Is fighting at a crossroads in hockey? Ivanans injury 2 nights ago has had some media pundits up in arms over fighting in our game. I personally love hockey fights and agree that they can be the most exciting part of a game. But really what is going on? I hate how players have to defend themselves from clean hits these days. A nice open ice hit or a big hit in the corner is almost surely going to draw a fight. Does a player really need to be held accountable for a clean hit? Is that the direction we really want fighting to go? Is there even a point to having guys like Ivanans on a team anymore? He doesn't produce points, is a liability on defence, not a great skater. So he goes out and throws a cheap shot on a young potential star player and has to fight. Edmonton was right to respond and hold Ivanans accountable. But as Bob McKenzie asks; what was the point of Ivanans actions in the first place?

Personally I think the age of the goon has got to end (and I think it is ending). The sport needs to regain that emphasis on being a hockey player first, occasional fighter second. Guys like Steve Ott, Dan Carcillo, and David Clarkson are epic. They play good old fashioned tough hockey. They score goals, Fight when needed, and generally piss people off.

Don't take this as a call against fighting in hockey. Hopefully fighting will always have a place in hockey. It's engrained in us. It's the way the sport is meant to be played. But we've got to get back to watching two hockey players fight instead of two boxers on skates.

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10-09-2010, 10:54 PM
  #2
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After watching Kovalchuk vs Green tonight, the future of fighting is mantis style kung fu and/or arm flailing.

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10-10-2010, 01:28 AM
  #3
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Well, there's always youtube and Tony Twist videos.

Personally, I see the NHL loaded with heavy weights. Only problem is that Bettman and the NHL have let non-NHL fans influence them too much. Also, post-lockout hockey means that you actually need guys who can play, especially in the playoffs rather than a goon. Sarah Landgraff (Katherine) is hard to get around. I can't even tell what her hair colour is, red, blonde? I dunno, it’s unique like her. She got away, I wish I’d said something meaningful to her when I had a chance, I wish I had been a friend. And I hope that she makes something out of herself rather than wasting too much time on wasteful uni activities like drinkin or over-doing sororities. A goon is taking up a roster spot in a game which would benefit the development of a 22-24 year old prospect about ready to step in.


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Old
10-10-2010, 02:45 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angry pirate View Post
Is fighting at a crossroads in hockey? Ivanans injury 2 nights ago has had some media pundits up in arms over fighting in our game. I personally love hockey fights and agree that they can be the most exciting part of a game. But really what is going on? I hate how players have to defend themselves from clean hits these days. A nice open ice hit or a big hit in the corner is almost surely going to draw a fight. Does a player really need to be held accountable for a clean hit? Is that the direction we really want fighting to go? Is there even a point to having guys like Ivanans on a team anymore? He doesn't produce points, is a liability on defence, not a great skater. So he goes out and throws a cheap shot on a young potential star player and has to fight. Edmonton was right to respond and hold Ivanans accountable. But as Bob McKenzie asks; what was the point of Ivanans actions in the first place?

Personally I think the age of the goon has got to end (and I think it is ending). The sport needs to regain that emphasis on being a hockey player first, occasional fighter second. Guys like Steve Ott, Dan Carcillo, and David Clarkson are epic. They play good old fashioned tough hockey. They score goals, Fight when needed, and generally piss people off.

Don't take this as a call against fighting in hockey. Hopefully fighting will always have a place in hockey. It's engrained in us. It's the way the sport is meant to be played. But we've got to get back to watching two hockey players fight instead of two boxers on skates.
A player delivering a clean hockey hit should not be challenged to fight.

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Old
10-18-2010, 02:32 AM
  #5
nighthawk57
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Fighting in hockey should be reserved for answering a disrespectfull behavior from an opponent,such as cheap shot,hit from behind,slashing,thrash talking not for clean big hits.

I'm sure lots of guys would deliver more big hits if it was that way.

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10-18-2010, 08:05 AM
  #6
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I think that the fights in the NHL is close to comes to an end. There's a lot of new people in hockey who don't like that part of the game. In this days only pests have a secure room like Lapierre, Avery, Kaleta, Cooke among others, with the instigator rule the goons are coming to an end. I love the fights, the day that NHL wants to eliminate the fights I will not follow this sport anymore.
Of course I want my team win the games, I celebrate when we score a goal, but so far away, the most exciting part of the game is when two players drop the gloves and start dance!

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10-18-2010, 10:00 AM
  #7
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Originally Posted by Tampa22 View Post
I think that the fights in the NHL is close to comes to an end. There's a lot of new people in hockey who don't like that part of the game. In this days only pests have a secure room like Lapierre, Avery, Kaleta, Cooke among others, with the instigator rule the goons are coming to an end. I love the fights, the day that NHL wants to eliminate the fights I will not follow this sport anymore.
Of course I want my team win the games, I celebrate when we score a goal, but so far away, the most exciting part of the game is when two players drop the gloves and start dance!
I think this may be somewhat true, at least for pure goons who only fight and can't actually play hockey. With the instigator rule big heavyweights pretty much only fight other heavyweights in arranged battles, if one team has no heavyweight the other team's heavyweight basically does nothing. Look at Boogaard, tries to fight every game, but nobody wants to fight him so they don't have to, $1.6 mil for a guy who couldn't even put up 10 points in a season in the WHL (and he played 4 seasons in the dub), and who will only be able to throw down in the very occasional arranged goon vs. goon showdown.

However, I disagree with fights being the most important part of the game, I enjoy watching a good fight, but for me it's a side show, IMO what goes on in the actual game is infinitely more important and entertaining. And I'm not some new NHL fan, I've been watching the Leafs for as long as I can remember, and played organized hockey at a number of levels from the age of 8 till the end of high school (and still play beer league). I think there's tonnes of diehard NHL fans who simply couldn't care *TOO* much about fighting one way or the other.

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10-18-2010, 11:04 AM
  #8
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I am 100% fine with seeing Datsyuk, Nash, Malkin, Green, and Kovalchuk fighting in the first week of the season. It would be a better league if those guys were sticking up for themselves regularly, and the Konopkas were sent back to the AHL where they belong.

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Old
10-18-2010, 11:06 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14ari13 View Post
A player delivering a clean hockey hit should not be challenged to fight.
There's a difference between clean hits with little to no impact and clean but devastating hits where you're basically saying this is my ice stay the **** off it. When a teammate gets completely blasted it shouldn't matter how clean the hit was, you stick up for your teammate and go after the guy that ran him and let him know you're not going to just let him get away with it. That's why hockey's great. That pack mentality.

One thing I am starting to agree with is Larry Brooks' article from the other day, and it ties into the instigator rule. Enforcers can't enforce or be a real deterrent because they'll find themselves in the coaches dog house. Even a Carcillo, Clarkson, Clowe or Barch type of player who's more than just a puncher will get chewed out for doing the right thing if the coaches are angry at having to kill a penalty and lose their guy for 17 minutes. It's a no win situation in some instances. Derek Boogaard didn't stop Colby Armstrong from going after Gaborik, Parros couldn't stop Doan from going after his teammate. So why have them? I love a good fight as much as anyone, and I don't care if it's an appointment fight between two heavyweights, because those guys have their own rivalries just like team's do, but they should also be able to do their other job, which is keep opposing team's in line. They can't do that though, they're completely handcuffed.

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10-18-2010, 11:09 AM
  #10
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Plus the fact that when you see a teammate down on the ice its not time to reflect about if the hit was clean or not. You respond.

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10-18-2010, 12:50 PM
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I don't see any reason to have goons on a team, for example, the Islanders have Gillies on the 4th line and all he does is challenges the goon on the other team to a fight...they fight...get a little pop out of the crowd but its soon forgotten.

Instead of Gillies, the Islanders could call up a player like Matt Martin from Bridgeport. For those of you unfamiliar with Matt Martin, he is one of the Isles prospects who is built like a freight train but also has the potential to be a 3rd/4th line producer and may even fit on a 1st or 2nd line in the future...but instead, spots are being given all over the NHL to these goons who know nothing but fighting.

My personal opinion? Learn how to play quality hockey or get off the roster, but unfortunately thats not how it goes with all teams.

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Old
10-18-2010, 01:52 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nighthawk57 View Post
Fighting in hockey should be reserved for answering a disrespectfull behavior from an opponent,such as cheap shot,hit from behind,slashing,thrash talking not for clean big hits.

I'm sure lots of guys would deliver more big hits if it was that way.
When your star player gets hit, you react as a team. When your smallest player gets hit by a bigger player, you react as a team. If teams react when every hit against them is made, well it's their right to do so as well. But they better be prepared for the battle, because for every action there is a reaction in hockey.

I think most of us would like to see more clean big hits go unchallenged, but we aren't in the room. We shouldn't kill teams for showing unity. Yeah, sometimes it looks silly but if it's deemed necessary within the room, then we're just outsiders stating an opinion.

I always use this example when this topic comes up. Two seasons ago, Pens were playing in Florida late in the season. Evgeni Malkin flying down the wing got checked by Keith Ballard...a beautiful hip check that sent Malkin head over heels. It was spectacular. It was great. I had nothing to say about that hit, because Ballard did it to perfection that night. Still, Sidney Crosby came over and dropped the gloves with Ballard. The captain made a statement. This has been around since the game has been around.

IMO, everybody did the right thing in that situation. Yeah, it was clean but it was Malkin. If the Pens want to send messages that Malkin hits or Crosby hits won't go unnoticed, somebody must do something there. That's hockey.

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10-18-2010, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by angry pirate View Post
Guys like Steve Ott, Dan Carcillo, and David Clarkson are epic.
False.

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10-19-2010, 12:26 PM
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The general attitude towards fighting on this site just ****ing kills me. It has a perpose in the game it adds excitement to the game for most fans and yet some of you start two or three threads like this a week *****ing and moaning about it almost like you wish the league would flat out ban it altogether. it is a ****ing joke.

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10-19-2010, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c-carp View Post
The general attitude towards fighting on this site just ****ing kills me. It has a perpose in the game it adds excitement to the game for most fans and yet some of you start two or three threads like this a week *****ing and moaning about it almost like you wish the league would flat out ban it altogether. it is a ****ing joke.
You have said this in so many threads, but I don't see all these anti-fighting comments.

Can you link to 2 or 3 anti-fighting threads from this week?

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10-19-2010, 12:50 PM
  #16
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Originally Posted by angry pirate View Post
Is fighting at a crossroads in hockey? Ivanans injury 2 nights ago has had some media pundits up in arms over fighting in our game. I personally love hockey fights and agree that they can be the most exciting part of a game. But really what is going on? I hate how players have to defend themselves from clean hits these days. A nice open ice hit or a big hit in the corner is almost surely going to draw a fight. Does a player really need to be held accountable for a clean hit? Is that the direction we really want fighting to go? Is there even a point to having guys like Ivanans on a team anymore? He doesn't produce points, is a liability on defence, not a great skater. So he goes out and throws a cheap shot on a young potential star player and has to fight. Edmonton was right to respond and hold Ivanans accountable. But as Bob McKenzie asks; what was the point of Ivanans actions in the first place?

Personally I think the age of the goon has got to end (and I think it is ending). The sport needs to regain that emphasis on being a hockey player first, occasional fighter second. Guys like Steve Ott, Dan Carcillo, and David Clarkson are epic. They play good old fashioned tough hockey. They score goals, Fight when needed, and generally piss people off.

Don't take this as a call against fighting in hockey. Hopefully fighting will always have a place in hockey. It's engrained in us. It's the way the sport is meant to be played. But we've got to get back to watching two hockey players fight instead of two boxers on skates.
Clean hit no, but i believe if you make a clean hit and hurt one of your top players than the player who hit that player should have to stand up for themselvs... Like if kessel gets hit by someone say marc staal (making this whole thing up) then someone like orr or brown or komisarek or schenn should go in and fight them, u want a reputation that your star players dont get hit/crushed by people or the person that hits him will get his bell rung, thats the way i look at it. Clean hit doesn't deserve a fight but a clean big hit on a starplayer you need to protect.

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10-21-2010, 06:25 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PuckHogs29 View Post
There's a difference between clean hits with little to no impact and clean but devastating hits where you're basically saying this is my ice stay the **** off it. When a teammate gets completely blasted it shouldn't matter how clean the hit was, you stick up for your teammate and go after the guy that ran him and let him know you're not going to just let him get away with it. That's why hockey's great. That pack mentality.

One thing I am starting to agree with is Larry Brooks' article from the other day, and it ties into the instigator rule. Enforcers can't enforce or be a real deterrent because they'll find themselves in the coaches dog house. Even a Carcillo, Clarkson, Clowe or Barch type of player who's more than just a puncher will get chewed out for doing the right thing if the coaches are angry at having to kill a penalty and lose their guy for 17 minutes. It's a no win situation in some instances. Derek Boogaard didn't stop Colby Armstrong from going after Gaborik, Parros couldn't stop Doan from going after his teammate. So why have them? I love a good fight as much as anyone, and I don't care if it's an appointment fight between two heavyweights, because those guys have their own rivalries just like team's do, but they should also be able to do their other job, which is keep opposing team's in line. They can't do that though, they're completely handcuffed.
There was a situation last year in a SJ/FLA game in which a Panther player boarded Pavelski and Malholtra stepped up and fought the dude and they lost him for the entire third period pretty much. Strangely enough McClellan was right behind Manny with his decision saying something to the effect of "we want our guys standing up for each other." And from a Sharks perspective, Clowe's willingness to stand up for the team and teammates with his fists are why he is an alternate captain this year. I do think the age of a pure enforcer is ending though. Thats why you see Boogaard training with Datsyuk over the summer and Jody Shelley working on net presence and board work. Kudos to them for trying to be better players but is it too late?

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Old
10-21-2010, 07:22 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c-carp View Post
The general attitude towards fighting on this site just ****ing kills me. It has a perpose in the game it adds excitement to the game for most fans and yet some of you start two or three threads like this a week *****ing and moaning about it almost like you wish the league would flat out ban it altogether. it is a ****ing joke.
Your reading comprehension is absolutely atrocious. It's a discussion about the evolving role of fighting and fighters in hockey. It's a very valid topic of discussion.

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