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Old
10-23-2010, 02:57 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Really? If Spezza is so great why isn't he leading a pretty talented team deep into the playoffs?

The guy is a fine stat padding center, playing with world class players in his career like Heatley and Alfredsson.

He isn't a guy that can or will carry a team to a Cup.

So why exactly is an ENTIRE TEAM of solid young, skilled, hard working players worth dismantling and adding a TON of salary in ONE player, worth it??

Its not.

Therefore, its not ridiculous. And there are guys off limits.

If there wasn't a salary cap, then yea, fine, but there is, and building a team is how things have to be done, not buying one.

There is no possible way to add Spezza and his salary and still ice a full team.
Uh, what?

Jon was saying those players are not all untouchable. Not that we should give up ALL of them. We'd have to give up 1 or 2 of those players, plus draft pick(s), plus a prospect. And depending on those players, Spezza is worth it. I'd easily give up Anisimov, Dubinsky, Rozsival, and a 1st for Spezza. Do you have any idea how much of an improvement Spezza is to Anisimov? He's been to the finals. He is a #1 center. Anisimov MAY be a #1 center one day. He may be a great #2. Or he may end up being a great #3. He's showing signs of being a very good player, but the production is what counts the most. And I doubt Anisimov's production will ever be at Spezza's level. If it is, then both teams will be happy if they make a deal.

You gotta give to get. The sens aren't going to do us any favors and give us Spezza for Rozsival and draft picks.

And I totally disagree with your comments about him padding-stats playing with Heatley and Alfredsson. Heatley's the kind of player who fits perfectly with a guy who can find him like Spezza. They both benefitted from eachother. That doesn't mean Spezza wouldn't be great on our first line with Gaborik and whoever would play LW. He's a big, hard to contain down-low center with great vision and great puck skills. He'd fill a big hole and also allow other guys to slide into more comfortable spots and really succeed in their roles. Adding Spezza has a huge positive trickle-down effect. Even if we're giving up one of Dubinsky/Anisimov, one of Grachev / 1st round pick. I don't want to give up Stepan, Kreider, Callahan, Staal, or DZ. I would give up one or two of Dubi, Anisimov if Rozy was going the other way, but I wouldn't give up both Rozy and Girardi in the same deal without getting a minutes d-man with experience back. And for those who say losing Rozy without a replacement would kill our defense. I'm ready to take that path.

Let's say the deal is Dubi, Anisimov, Rozsival, 1st for Spezza.

Staal-Girardi
DZ - Sauer
Eminger - Valentenko
Gilroy

is fine by me if our offense is

Prospal Spezza Gaborik
Avery Stepan Fedotenko
Frolov Drury Callahan
Prust Boyle Boogard
Christensen, White

I think thats a big improvement from

Frolov Prospal Gaborik
Dubinsky Anisimov Callahan
Avery Stepan Fedotenko
Prust Drury Boyle
Boogard, Christensen
White in HFD

It's a lot easier to find guys to fill out a great 3rd line and a good 2nd line than it is to find a legit, no doubt about it 1st line center, not just a guy who CAN play #1 C and not look out of place, or just benefit from Gaborik's elite talent. If Gaborik didn't have to CARRY the offense singlehandedly, we'd be in a lot better shape. I know we're starting to see secondary scoring, but it makes a difference in so many other ways as I've already mentioned (trickle-down effect, garnering so much attention from the other team's top defenders, and having Spezza play 20 mins a night is better than having Christensen play 20 mins a night as your #1 center.

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Old
10-23-2010, 03:15 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Really? If Spezza is so great why isn't he leading a pretty talented team deep into the playoffs?

The guy is a fine stat padding center, playing with world class players in his career like Heatley and Alfredsson.

He isn't a guy that can or will carry a team to a Cup.
Could not agree more. A ton of skill, but Spezza and Heatley folded to an inferior Ducks team that Ottawa should have beaten. Spezza's got phenomenal talent, but doesn't seem to have much heart.

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Old
10-23-2010, 03:54 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by stempniaksen View Post
Not coming in here to be too much of a homer, but the sens have incredibly weak center depth as far as a guy that can come in and contribute to the top-six anytime soon.

That being said a legit #1 center (not happening obviously) or a potential future #1 center would have to be coming back for this to make any sense. In that regard I think Stepan has to be involved from a Sens standpoint.

I don't like Spezza to Rangers trade from both sides because what it would do to Ottawa's top end and what it would do to the youth movement/depth that the Rags have built.


If we had a legit/potential #1C we wouldn't need to trade for one in the first place.

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10-23-2010, 05:00 AM
  #29
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Sorry but Murray wants to move him for a reason. The guy hasn't worked hard in years. Bad example in a young locker room. Just say no!

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10-23-2010, 05:37 AM
  #30
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no way Ottawa trades him for what has been offered on this thread anyway

with Alfredsson and Kovalev they ain't getting any younger either

highly highly doubt Spezza is going anywhere

The Stars owner on the other hand has already lost his baseball team, his soccer team and now quite likely his hockey team as well.

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10-23-2010, 05:42 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by donpaulo View Post
no way Ottawa trades him for what has been offered on this thread anyway

with Alfredsson and Kovalev they ain't getting any younger either

highly highly doubt Spezza is going anywhere

The Stars owner on the other hand has already lost his baseball team, his soccer team and now quite likely his hockey team as well.
What?The lenders/creditors have already taken over the Stars. Hicks is no longer involved. He is still there but the other guys are running the team. The NHL is working with the banks to find a buyer. There are interested buyers but the NHL wants more than Stars are worth. The NHL has advanced the Stars revenue sharing money. The team might be sold in January.

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10-23-2010, 05:44 AM
  #32
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Spezza has a ridiculous contract. Hasn't performed to that contract. So lets bring him to New York. Priceless. Spezza is another dog with fleas.

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10-23-2010, 05:45 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Really? If Spezza is so great why isn't he leading a pretty talented team deep into the playoffs?

The guy is a fine stat padding center, playing with world class players in his career like Heatley and Alfredsson.

He isn't a guy that can or will carry a team to a Cup.

So why exactly is an ENTIRE TEAM of solid young, skilled, hard working players worth dismantling and adding a TON of salary in ONE player, worth it??

Its not.

Therefore, its not ridiculous. And there are guys off limits.

If there wasn't a salary cap, then yea, fine, but there is, and building a team is how things have to be done, not buying one.

There is no possible way to add Spezza and his salary and still ice a full team.
Jon is really a Devil fan.

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10-23-2010, 06:01 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by DelZottoFutureNorris View Post
Uh, what?

Jon was saying those players are not all untouchable. Not that we should give up ALL of them. We'd have to give up 1 or 2 of those players, plus draft pick(s), plus a prospect. And depending on those players, Spezza is worth it. I'd easily give up Anisimov, Dubinsky, Rozsival, and a 1st for Spezza. Do you have any idea how much of an improvement Spezza is to Anisimov? He's been to the finals. He is a #1 center. Anisimov MAY be a #1 center one day. He may be a great #2. Or he may end up being a great #3. He's showing signs of being a very good player, but the production is what counts the most. And I doubt Anisimov's production will ever be at Spezza's level. If it is, then both teams will be happy if they make a deal.

You gotta give to get. The sens aren't going to do us any favors and give us Spezza for Rozsival and draft picks.

And I totally disagree with your comments about him padding-stats playing with Heatley and Alfredsson. Heatley's the kind of player who fits perfectly with a guy who can find him like Spezza. They both benefitted from eachother. That doesn't mean Spezza wouldn't be great on our first line with Gaborik and whoever would play LW. He's a big, hard to contain down-low center with great vision and great puck skills. He'd fill a big hole and also allow other guys to slide into more comfortable spots and really succeed in their roles. Adding Spezza has a huge positive trickle-down effect. Even if we're giving up one of Dubinsky/Anisimov, one of Grachev / 1st round pick. I don't want to give up Stepan, Kreider, Callahan, Staal, or DZ. I would give up one or two of Dubi, Anisimov if Rozy was going the other way, but I wouldn't give up both Rozy and Girardi in the same deal without getting a minutes d-man with experience back. And for those who say losing Rozy without a replacement would kill our defense. I'm ready to take that path.

Let's say the deal is Dubi, Anisimov, Rozsival, 1st for Spezza.

Staal-Girardi
DZ - Sauer
Eminger - Valentenko
Gilroy

is fine by me if our offense is

Prospal Spezza Gaborik
Avery Stepan Fedotenko
Frolov Drury Callahan
Prust Boyle Boogard
Christensen, White

I think thats a big improvement from

Frolov Prospal Gaborik
Dubinsky Anisimov Callahan
Avery Stepan Fedotenko
Prust Drury Boyle
Boogard, Christensen
White in HFD

It's a lot easier to find guys to fill out a great 3rd line and a good 2nd line than it is to find a legit, no doubt about it 1st line center, not just a guy who CAN play #1 C and not look out of place, or just benefit from Gaborik's elite talent. If Gaborik didn't have to CARRY the offense singlehandedly, we'd be in a lot better shape. I know we're starting to see secondary scoring, but it makes a difference in so many other ways as I've already mentioned (trickle-down effect, garnering so much attention from the other team's top defenders, and having Spezza play 20 mins a night is better than having Christensen play 20 mins a night as your #1 center.
So your givivng up TWO of our top young NHL roster players, a top prospect, and a first round pick(s)...

For a HIGH PRICED center.

Then, you are putting 35 year old Prospal(coming off knee surgery, no less) on the top line with Gaborik(separated shoulder), Drury(34 years old), 31 year old Fedotenko, Frolov is gone after this season...

Who is playing next year?

You people live in a fantasy world if you really think this would be a great move for the Rangers.

SALARY CAP.

If this were a free market, there were no world-wide economic depression, and two wars not being faught, an expiring CBA on the horizon, this would make sense.

Fact is, all that effects the fact that there is a salary cap, it may or may not fluctuate either way(up or down), and if the CBA expires and there is a work stoppage, teams that can't field a full roster due to TOO MANY awful contracts won't get any sympathy.

You want: Drury, Spezza, Gaborik, Lundqvist, all making 6+ mil.

Dubinsky, Anisimov, top prospect gone and NO first round pick???

That's simply awful awful managment.

This isn't a video game.

Christensen is a place holder. He hasn't been playing on the "top line" at all this season. Stepan and Anisimov are our top two centers moving forward. They're consistently two of the better players on the ice (for both teams), and are cheap, and are both 22 and under.

Dubinsky scored 20 goals last year and is still improving.

There is just no way to get reality across to people. They see a big name in flashy neon lights and think they can have them with out major consequences.

This isn't a video game, and this isn't Yahoo! fantasy hockey.

This is reality. In reality there are many many factors in play. And because of those factors, trading for Spezza, Richards, Lecavalier or any other high priced, veteran player, a move like that cripples an organization long term. And in some cases short term as well(especially when your only remaining parts are both old and injured).

No thanks.

Ill take the TEAM that's being BUILT, and then fill in later with CHEAP options. So I can keep the YOUNG players when they're RFA, and have LONG TERM organizational health.

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Old
10-23-2010, 06:11 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by NYRangers09 View Post
Anyone but Dubinsky, Anisimov, Callahan, and Stepan and it is an amazing deal in my opinion. Give em Grachev, Roszival, and a 1st and a second if you have to and we are completely set for the future.
The Rangers would say yes to the deal of Grachev, a 1st and Rozy in a second... but I doubt the Sens would accept...

Spezza is still young enough around 27 years old to be big part of this team now and into the future. He is a legit first line center. Imagine him on a line with Gaborik!

I would include any of Dubinsky, AA, Callahan, and possibly Kreider and Stepan also as it would depend on the deal.

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10-23-2010, 06:22 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Jon is really a Devil fan.
I respect Jon's opinions as much as anyones, but...

People must not be looking at the whole picture.

They see/hear a name and all reason goes out the window.

There is no realistic scenario where giving up so many valuable young assets for an aging overpriced player, makes any sense. Especially when the other players on the roster you would then be forced to rely on are both old and injured.

How does that help us???

You can't look at player x, and say "he's super talented, he's elite, we can trade a, b, and c for him and be o our way." This isn't a free market!!!! There's a salary cap.

In all of these situations where a team is trading a guy like Spezza, there is a reason they're trading them!!!!! Its because they can't afford it long term, and they need to bring in young, cheap assets to build for the future.

I feel like no matter how often I try to put that out there, it falls on deaf ears.

There is no more trading based on skill. There's a salary cap and a CBA. Those are the largest factors when considering all roster management.

For 5+ years we have been in this post-lockout, salary cap era.

Time and time again, we have seen that you can not buy a team. You MUST build one and then do your hardest work to keep it together, and continue to add to it year after year THOUGH THE DRAFT. That is how successful hockey teams are managed.

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10-23-2010, 07:05 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
I respect Jon's opinions as much as anyones, but...

People must not be looking at the whole picture.

They see/hear a name and all reason goes out the window.

There is no realistic scenario where giving up so many valuable young assets for an aging overpriced player, makes any sense. Especially when the other players on the roster you would then be forced to rely on are both old and injured.

How does that help us???

You can't look at player x, and say "he's super talented, he's elite, we can trade a, b, and c for him and be o our way." This isn't a free market!!!! There's a salary cap.

In all of these situations where a team is trading a guy like Spezza, there is a reason they're trading them!!!!! Its because they can't afford it long term, and they need to bring in young, cheap assets to build for the future.

I feel like no matter how often I try to put that out there, it falls on deaf ears.

There is no more trading based on skill. There's a salary cap and a CBA. Those are the largest factors when considering all roster management.

For 5+ years we have been in this post-lockout, salary cap era.

Time and time again, we have seen that you can not buy a team. You MUST build one and then do your hardest work to keep it together, and continue to add to it year after year THOUGH THE DRAFT. That is how successful hockey teams are managed.
I don't quite agree with a few things you said.

First I don't think you can call Spezza "an aging player" at 27 years old. He is younger than Gaborik and Lundqvist, so if we intend to win the cup with these key players, he would fit right in age-wise.

And then there are still big trades every now and then where it is not entirely about the salary cap or trading upcoming UFA's. Deals like the Thornton or the Heatley trade were made because those players were no longer a good fit on their respective teams, but not because the team couldn't afford them. There are always reasons why teams trade players, but those players still fit well on other teams.

I think Spezza would be a very good acquisition, and could bring us a good step towards being a contender. I'd also be willing to give up a few assets to acquire him, but I think fitting him under the cap might be a big problem. It would be only a mid-term problem though, and I don't think his contract would handcuff us in the long run. Once Drury's and Rozsival's deal are off the books, we could have a legitimate shot at contending with core players like Lundqvist, Gaborik, Spezza, Staal, DZ and solid homegrown talent in some of (those who aren't traded) Dubi, Cally, Anisimov, Stepan and Girardi. Add to that some of our Prospects like Kreider, Grachev, McD and McIllrath and I think we have the foundations of a contender. Without Spezza though, we would have to hope that one of our center prospects will turn into a legit 1st line C, because I sincerely doubt the chances of winning with a weak center lineup.

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10-23-2010, 07:09 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
So your givivng up TWO of our top young NHL roster players, a top prospect, and a first round pick(s)...

You people live in a fantasy world (Pun intended, I'm sure )if you really think this would be a great move for the Rangers.

Dubinsky, Anisimov, top prospect gone and first round pick???

That's simply awful awful managment.

This isn't a video game, and this isn't Yahoo! fantasy hockey.

Ill take the TEAM that's being BUILT, and then fill in later with CHEAP options. So I can keep the YOUNG players when they're RFA, and have LONG TERM organizational health.
This!

Why would we give up a talented young (cheap) center, a versatile young and reasonably priced forward/center that's still developing, a minute eating defenseman (with a decent actual dollar salary) AND a 1st ROUNDER? This is silly.

I would offer either Dubi OR Ani, Rosie, a 2nd (maybe a 1st) and one (maybe two) prospects (Grachev?)not named Kreider (Stepan is no longer a prospect, he's on the Rangers).

So deal is Dubi, Rosie, 2nd (1st?), & Grachev. If they choose not to re-up Rosie they'd still have Dubi, Grachev and whoever they chose with their 2nd.

Spezza is a fantastic talent and a sure fire 1st line center. But there are CAP issues to consider as well. The SENS are long in the tooth and need to continue their own rebuild. Spezza may, or may not be a part of that rebuild. If they can get decent prospects they will be further ahead of the process, IMO.


Last edited by HoosierDaddy: 10-23-2010 at 07:15 AM.
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10-23-2010, 07:10 AM
  #39
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I always liked Spezza...And he fits the bill for what Tortorella wants down the middle. Extra creative, big center, certainly top line material. Fits the bill for all but one thing...he's a right handed shot and the team wanted a left handed shot down the middle. But, the reality of it is if a Jason Spezza would become available Glen Sather has to be licking his chops right now with an opportunity to get him. Club clearly is looking for a first line center. Now a very good one becomes available and if there was a GM out there I would want in this position its Sather. If he gets him, I highly doubt he'll overpay. Grachev, yep...Rosy, sure...Hey maybe even the captain might head the other way? Throw in a first rounder...Sure!

Personally I think Dubi, Stepan, MDZ, Kreider should be off limits.

Only problem is, there may be some high bidders here.

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10-23-2010, 07:16 AM
  #40
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Tomorrow I will make another thread called 'Spezza!' (notice the different punctuation) and we can have this conversation again.

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10-23-2010, 07:25 AM
  #41
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I doubt it happens but if the deal would be anything more than Dubinsky, Rozi, Gilroy, (Maybe Byers) and a 2nd (WSH), I'd say no deal. Sather would not give up any top prospects. He probably wouldn't even give up Anisimov (as some of you would like him to do), and he won't give up Dubinsky. That last point (he won't trade Dubs) is what makes a trade for a #1 center impossible. I wonder how many offers other teams have made to acquire Dubinsky?

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10-23-2010, 07:37 AM
  #42
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Just ridiculous. Pretty much no one is off limits for Spezza.
Spezza is a good player but there are players that should be off limits for him. He was a scratch last night in buffalo. I havent read why but he was hurt last year and the season before his numbers dropped drastically from the norm. Yeah that could be one bad season, however, this is someone making around $7 million, we cant afford to take a chance while giving up our best players.

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10-23-2010, 07:48 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Off limits: Stepan, Kreider, Dubinsky, Staal, Del Zotto, Anisimov, Callahan, Girardi.

Anyone after that fine.

Giving up the core of a team and the team's future that has been building nicely, for another single high priced player is typical old Rangers BS philosophy that they have been migrating away from.

Not a trade I'd like to see, at all. Step in the wrong direction. And not financially feasible at this point in time with 7mil Drury, 6+mil Lundqvist, 5+mil Rozsival, 7+mil Gaborik on the roster.

Besides that, trade for Spezza and kiss Anisimov, Del Zotto, Dubinsky, and other RFAs goodbye.

TEAM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>high priced individuals acquired externally.

No no no. Stick to the plan. Continue BUILDING the team. This WILL be a VERY good team very soon. All it takes is PATIENCE and not deviating from the plan.
Agree completely. Let the kids keep improving and add through free agency where necessary. These type of trades won't work out for us because we don't have a single position of strength from which to trade. Anything we do will end up being a lateral move.

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10-23-2010, 08:02 AM
  #44
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Dubinsky
Grachev
Roszival
Sauer or 2011 first.

DONE!

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10-23-2010, 08:03 AM
  #45
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I hate to say it but if we trade Rosi our playoff chances are over. Eminger will play every night.

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10-23-2010, 08:11 AM
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They have 3 guys out on LTIR. If a trade happened now, they'd have over a month to move some salary around.
The Rangers don't have any players on LTIR.

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10-23-2010, 08:16 AM
  #47
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no way Ottawa trades him for what has been offered on this thread anyway

with Alfredsson and Kovalev they ain't getting any younger either

highly highly doubt Spezza is going anywhere

The Stars owner on the other hand has already lost his baseball team, his soccer team and now quite likely his hockey team as well.
Yeah, no way Heatley gets traded for Michalek and Cheechoo.

The Stars are going to make the playoffs, Richards will finish the season with the Stars in the Playoffs. When you see the rumored price for Richards at the deadline, you won't want to be a part of the bidding (assuming they faulter and he's available.)

Ottawa as a fanbase has been blaming Spezza for 2 seasons. The coach is frustrated and the is a negative air surrounding him. He will not cost a package of Dubi, Anisimov, Stepan, 1st +. He is going to net a return for a couple of roster guys to help the team now, Ottawa likes balance in the lines and thinks depth trumps 1 elite line.

I'm all for getting Spezza despite the negativity. Obviously for a reasonable price, but this is our 1st line center. This scenerio sounds just like Thornton leaving Boston. His value was down because of poor playoff performances, the fanbase was killing him, his stats were ok but not living up to his cap hit (back when the ceiling was at $39m). Boston moved him for balance by taking 3 decent players from the Sharks.

Where I would start is Dubinsky, Roszival and Grachev. I'd avoid the first rounder but I wouldn't break the deal over it, maybe they balance the deal with something else. Waive White and finally utilize the LTIR, we'll need to add a defenseman but that doesn't concern me with guys like Bieksa available.

When Drury comes back you put him on the left sides and I guess EC is out of the picture.

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10-23-2010, 08:23 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post

Where I would start is Dubinsky, Roszival and Grachev. I'd avoid the first rounder but I wouldn't break the deal over it, maybe they balance the deal with something else. Waive White and finally utilize the LTIR, we'll need to add a defenseman but that doesn't concern me with guys like Bieksa available. .

This would be a steal of a trade if Sather could pull this off.. Grachev's value is taking a hit, losing Dubinsky and Rozy would definately hurt but getting a talented first line 27 year old center in Spezza would be worth it. He probably needs a change of scenary.

I just dont see how Ottawa would accept this value in a trade, however you may be right as Boston did trade JT for similar or worse value... All I can say is WOW if Sather can pull this off.

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10-23-2010, 08:25 AM
  #49
GWOW
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Off limits: Stepan, Kreider, Dubinsky, Staal, Del Zotto, Anisimov, Callahan, Girardi.

Anyone after that fine.

Giving up the core of a team and the team's future that has been building nicely, for another single high priced player is typical old Rangers BS philosophy that they have been migrating away from.

Not a trade I'd like to see, at all. Step in the wrong direction. And not financially feasible at this point in time with 7mil Drury, 6+mil Lundqvist, 5+mil Rozsival, 7+mil Gaborik on the roster.

Besides that, trade for Spezza and kiss Anisimov, Del Zotto, Dubinsky, and other RFAs goodbye.

TEAM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>high priced individuals acquired externally.

No no no. Stick to the plan. Continue BUILDING the team. This WILL be a VERY good team very soon. All it takes is PATIENCE and not deviating from the plan.


While I totally agree with sticking with youth and keeping most of the assets, I can't see why any of those guys you mentioned are off limits. Not a single one of them has shown anything remotely close to what Spezza brings.

Spezza is 27 and clearly one of the top-5 playmaking centers in the league. He hit 90points at the age of 22.

IMO there Rangers don't have a single player or prospect outside of Gaborik and Henrik who is near what Spezza brings.

And Ottawa knows this, which is why if they even entertain the idea of trading Spezza, they will want Stepan, Kreider and one of Dubinsky or Callahan.


But there is no need to even think about Spezza IMO. Brad Richards is certainly on his level and a UFA at years end.

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10-23-2010, 08:25 AM
  #50
DutchShamrock
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
Agree completely. Let the kids keep improving and add through free agency where necessary. These type of trades won't work out for us because we don't have a single position of strength from which to trade. Anything we do will end up being a lateral move.
Teams that win do it through the draft and trades. Free agency is not the way to build a team historically. You can add a guy or two, but your core has to be picks and trades. I'm just going by the past. And its just my opinion, but I'm pretty sure we'll upgrade our center with this move.

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