HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Sauer returns, New lines...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-22-2010, 02:15 PM
  #251
haohmaru
#bdwyblueshirts
 
haohmaru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fleming Island, Fl
Country: United States
Posts: 5,360
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Like Chicago and Pittsburgh, we too were awful. They were willing to show patience and make sacrifice for the good of their franchise, with the goal of long-term success in mind. This team refused to do such a thing. Why hold it against them, when you should be holding it against this team?
Really? Refresh my memory when the last time was that this franchise had the overall #1 or #2 draft pick much less having FOUR of them in FOUR years. The Rangers have been 1st overall how many times in their history? 2nd overall? I simply DO NOT advocate tanking or trading players to deliberately try to do even worse, which is what you're suggesting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
IMO, the best-run franchises in the NHL (as of this moment), in no particular order: Detroit, Chicago, Washington, San Jose, Vancouver, Pittsburgh, Nashville, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Tampa Bay, St. Louis, New Jersey, and Boston. All of those teams are positioned to be contenders or, at the worst, playoff teams, for the foreseeable future (the Devils are an exception because of the questions regarding their future in net, but they have two of the best offensive players in the league, and neither is past their prime). Practically all of them are built around a foundation of top picks. Only Detroit, and New Jersey, relics of a past era, are not.
Detroit - yes
Chicago - yes with an "*" because of draft positioning.
Washington - again, 1st, 4th, 5th overall in 4 years. Until they prove something beyond round 2 of the playoffs they aren't any more successful than we are. **** the regular season.
San Jose - see above
Tampa Bay. Tampa Bay? They've been a mess for years, haven't made the playoffs the last 3 years, and have won one round since the Cup.
Boston - again, haven't proven much of anything
Devils - haven't done much more than the Rangers
Philadelphia - nice playoff run last year. decent team on paper. Still don't value the G position enough.
Nashville - run well on a low budget, no doubt.
Vancouver - hard to believe the Sedins were drafted in '99. :O
St. Louis - really?
Los Angeles?

I don't know - a lot of the teams above haven't been more or much more successful than we have since the lockout. Hard to gauge what your measuring stick is - especially where the playoffs are concerned.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
So you wouldn't prefer if the Rangers were like the Caps, who dress 11 1st round picks in their lineup and have the most exciting offense in the league. Do you really think they're going to exit the playoffs early every year? It's only a matter of time (I'd guess as soon as this year) until they get their act together. I'd be very surprised if they don't get to the Conference finals this season.

You wouldn't trade the Rangers roster (all emotional attachments aside) for the Kings roster? The Blackhawks? The Bruins? The Lightning?
Like the Caps? Like, finish first every year in the worst division in the sport and lose to inferior teams when it counts every year? Would I like Ovechkin? Of course. Doesn't change the fact that they've accomplished NOTHING so far. I don't care for the Bruins roster. I like Stamkos, but I don't prefer the Lightning over our core either. LA is a nice young team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Their beliefs? Your memory is very short if you've forgotten the things they've believed in the past. Things like "Wade Redden is the answer to our puckmoving problems on the blueline" or "Scott Gomez is a top NHL center." Obviously this list can go on for a while. Their beliefs have consistently proven to be out of touch with the successful people in this league, who correctly understand that acquiring highly skilled players, especially at the center ice position, is the key to building a winning and contending team. Yet another example of how everything this team does is backwards. The last thing they leave to fill is the thing their competitors begin with.
Every team - including those "well run" franchises that you mention have their crosses to bear.
Caps - Nylander
Devils - Rolston, Kovalchuk, etc...
Bruins - Ryder
Hawks - Huet
TB - Lecavalier

Etc.. you act like only the Rangers have toxic contracts. EVERY TEAM IN THE LEAGUE DOES.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
No, what I wanted was a roster built around young players that are elite talents, not a roster whose core is a bunch of role players filling roles they aren't suited for. Let me ask you a question: how many players of that 50% do you envision being here when this team is going to contend (this is assuming they will contend at some point with this group, which I feel is HIGHLY unlikely barring a major acquisition of a superstar center, and that alone is still probably not enough for this team)?
I think our definition of "contend" is clearly different. You label perennial underachievers like San Jose and Washington as contenders despite the fact that neither of them have gotten much or any further than we have since the lockout. I like our core and I think it's getting stronger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Callahan, Stepan, Staal, maybe guys like Sauer, Prust, Valentenko, McDonagh. I want to say Lundqvist, but at this point, it doesn't seem very likely that the necessary measures will be taken while he is still in his prime, unless they can acquire Richards or Spezza (though I still can't fathom why Ottawa would trade him, considering they would never get fair value in exchange). It's a bunch of role players. Stepan is the only one (MAYBE Staal, depending on your point of view) that could potentially attain the status of being a franchise player, at least of the guys playing so far.
Kreider? Thomas? Werek? It's hard to say. Amonte was drafted 68th overall and he turned out to be the 10th or 11th leading scorer in the history of U.S. players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
This roster of young players is built to be a playoff bubble team. It's an arms race, and we're lagging behind the competition. Most of these teams have TWO guys better than any young player we have, and all of those guys on the other teams were drafted. The only player in our entire organization that is a sure bet for the elite category is...surprise surprise...another free agent acquisition, who also happens to have an injury history that isn't very inspiring.
I disagree.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Well, there really isn't anyone of consequence on the team, except for Lundqvist or Gaborik, over the hill or otherwise. That's the problem. That's why getting Jagr was a mistake. By now, we should have had one. ****, we should have had a couple. WE could have Patrick Kane. We could have had Backstrom or Kessel or Toews or Erik Johnson. Stamkos, Doughty, etc. That could have been us. Yes, we would have been bad for 2-3 years. But then we would have been very good for 5-8, maybe longer. Instead, we were mediocre, and we're going to keep being mediocre, because half the teams in the league get it, and the other half don't. We're very much in that second group.
I disagree with this philosophy entirely. Winning organizations don't become winners by deliberately losing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
What Sather and friends have done is an illusion, and not a particularly clever one. They've created this pseudo-rebuild to appease portions of the fanbase, fans whose standards have sunk so low that these second and third liners are enough to make them happy. I don't know how you can love this team and be happy with that. I don't know how watching a team that season after season plays minor league hockey in the offensive zone is entertaining enough for some people. It's an embarrassment. This team is a joke. It's unacceptable. We're being cheated, and we're paying more and more money for it every year. There's absolutely no reason why fans in half the cities in the league, if not more, get to watch high level professional hockey, and we're stuck with house league tactics. You cannot compare the way the Rangers play most nights with the way teams like Detroit, Chicago, Vancouver, San Jose, Washington play. It's like watching two different leagues.
Wow. You've lost me here. A team that's made the playoffs every year except one since the lockout is a "minor league" team. If your standard of comparison is Detroit, then sure, just about every team is going to look like ass. The Devils, however, won 3 Cups by playing defense first and not having "star mentality". Clearly, that worked for them. Doesn't work for you. I get it. The Caps are exciting. I get that, too. The past few years aside, I think this team, this year, is working extremely hard.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Actually, I think it had more to do with Lundqvist even, than Jagr. You can keep bringing up Jagr's statistics, but it doesn't change the widely-accepted fact that scoring in the NHL was up, league-wide in 2005-06, and to a lesser degree, 2006-07. You're emphasizing the over the hill part as if I'm bashing Jagr. I'm not bashing Jagr at all. He's probably the greatest European player in NHL history. He's a remarkable talent. Unfortunately, the Rangers acquired him at the age or 34, a week before they conducted a FIRESALE. You see how those two ideas contradict one another? A year after those 219 points, Jagr was out of the league. Alex Ovechkin is the best player in the world, and he's several years away from his prime. Not only did he score 219 points in less games, but he did it without the help of newly-implemented scoring-inflating rule changes. It's not exactly a reasonable comparison.
Yeah, and AO has much better teammates than Jagr did. Point is, Jagr was still an elite player and, I hate to say it, a better playoff performer than AO has been so far. Can you imagine if Jagr had Backstrom, Green, and Semin playing with him?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Competitive? They lost, 4-2. They lost, and they should have lost. They were the worse team. Lundqvist, as usual, kept them in games they should have lost by more than one goal, because they were playing a deeper, more talented team.
3 one goal games and I'd argue that Miller played better than Lundqvist did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
That four seed (which was really the third seed), BTW had 11 more points than the Rangers did in the regular season, and a line that *gasp* was even better than Jagr, Straka and Nylander. That team also defeated the Pittsburgh Penguins in the first round, not the Atlanta Thrashers, who may not have made the playoffs at all had they not been in the league's worst division at the time.
Yeah, Ottawa had great talent. No goalie, though. But, you'll never convince me that that Rangers team wasn't good enough to go further. They were.

haohmaru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-22-2010, 02:22 PM
  #252
Fitzy
All Is Well
 
Fitzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,917
vCash: 50
Too much emphasis is being put on regular season results.

For example, the Caps are too soft, and dont have enough high octane shot blocking types on offense and defense to do anything in the playoffs.

This is not a knock on Europeans, but come playoff time the Ryan Callahans and Sean Averys of the world make their living while the skill guys score less because every team is playing tighter defense, and doesnt give up the pretty goals.

Fitzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-22-2010, 02:37 PM
  #253
RGY
(Jagr68NYR94Leetch)
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Long Island, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 8,071
vCash: 500
The shot blocking last night was astounding. They were excellent. It is when they play like that, that I think this team could find a playoff spot. They have some talent, but most of all they have a ton of heart and effort. It showed last night. The way they had been playing it was hard to imagine they could win a game 2-1.

RGY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-22-2010, 03:41 PM
  #254
nyrqc
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2
vCash: 500
Oh man, that lineup just sucks.. But I don't know why some people just put the panic button on.

We have 3 players missing, who are all playing on the 3 1st lines. Don't know what some expected about the lineup.

And prust didnt do so bad before, so he's got a chance playing on the 2nd. You all know that if it's not working Torts will change it as soon as he can lol.

Instead of talking about the problems, we should talk about the 2 points that we got against the leafs, on the road. No matter what is the lineup for the moment, all we need is to get the 2 pts, not matter whos playing.

I don't really love Torts but in the moment, what he wants is to get the 2 pts. For one time in his life maybe, he is trying to get the same lines on the ice for a longer time. And with the lineup we got, it's not a bad idea.

And if Prust is doing bad, Boyle will replace him in the next period.

Martin biron did the job last game, I'm glad Henrik will get more days off. It's pretty good.

PS : Sorry if I make some mistakes, my english's not perfect.

nyrqc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-22-2010, 03:45 PM
  #255
BlueshirtBlitz
Rich Nash
 
BlueshirtBlitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 18,700
vCash: 500
The line up looked very solid. The fact we have an amazing two way player like Callahan, a good two-way player in Anisimov, and a budding power forward who has great puck control skills in Dubinsky on our current 1st line looks like it will help us against legit 1st lines. We really did great in limiting Kessel last game. Defense is the best offense in this situation and we definitely showed that last night.

BlueshirtBlitz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2010, 07:21 AM
  #256
NYR Sting
Heart and Soul
 
NYR Sting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 9,506
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Really? Refresh my memory when the last time was that this franchise had the overall #1 or #2 draft pick much less having FOUR of them in FOUR years. The Rangers have been 1st overall how many times in their history? 2nd overall? I simply DO NOT advocate tanking or trading players to deliberately try to do even worse, which is what you're suggesting.
I'm not advocating it anymore. At this point, it's too late. The development cycle is past that point now. It's what should have been done, but you can't do it anymore anyway. Not with Gaborik, or the amount of quality complimentary players on the team.

Quote:
Chicago - yes with an "*" because of draft positioning.
What? How else do you expect to get great players, the players that win championships? You bottom out, let nature run it's course, and get restocked again. It's cyclical. If you don't join the cycle, success becomes a lot more difficult. Few achieved it in the past, and even fewer will going forward.

Quote:
Washington - again, 1st, 4th, 5th overall in 4 years. Until they prove something beyond round 2 of the playoffs they aren't any more successful than we are. **** the regular season.
The best regular season teams win it all more than anyone else. Come on, that's obvious. The Caps will be fine. Not only is their current roster FAR superior to the Rangers, they're prospect pool is just as deep as the Rangers is, and contains more high-end talent.

Quote:
San Jose - see above
The Caps will soon do what the Sharks did last season: take the next step. They made the conference finals. What more do you want from them? They should have lost to the Hawks. Chicago had a better team, and their goaltender was hotter.

Quote:
Tampa Bay. Tampa Bay? They've been a mess for years, haven't made the playoffs the last 3 years, and have won one round since the Cup.
In 2-3 years, the Lightning will be one of the 4-5 top teams in the East.

Quote:
Boston - again, haven't proven much of anything
Their best forward missed half the season, they still made the playoffs, got into the second round last season, and lost to a better Flyers team.

Quote:
Devils - haven't done much more than the Rangers
No, but I'm not ready to bury them. I don't care what anyone says, a cheap Kovalchuk, Parise, Zajac, Clarkson, Volchenkov, and a few nice prospects like Tedenby, Josefson, Urbom, Corrente, and Merrill is a nice place to quickly start things from scratch, which is what Lou is probably going to do in a couple of seasons once all of the old stuff is moved into the attic. Elias, Brodeur, Rolston, Arnott, and all their other crap is off the books in 2-3 years, and most of them will not be retained. Elias and Brodeur will sign discount deals, retire, or maybe Elias tacks on for a final year or two with some other team. They have too many outs to fold.

Quote:
St. Louis - really?
Los Angeles?
Yes. Los Angeles and St. Louis are also going to be taking their next respective steps this season. LA is going to be a strong team this season, and St. Louis is going to be a playoff team this season.

LA has young players like Kopitar, Doughty, Johnson, Quick, Bernier, Simmonds, Brown, Stoll, and prospects like Schenn, Loktionov, Teubert, Hickey, Voynov, Forbort. This is a treasure trove of talent. The best defenseman in the league, arguably, and one of the top 10 centers in the league. Great role players. A scary good group of defensemen.

Quote:
Like the Caps? Like, finish first every year in the worst division in the sport and lose to inferior teams when it counts every year? Would I like Ovechkin? Of course. Doesn't change the fact that they've accomplished NOTHING so far.
It's just incredibly unlikely that they won't begin to accomplish more. They're not getting any worse. If they keep Semin, next season they'll be better than they are this year.

Quote:
I don't care for the Bruins roster.
I'll say, of all of these teams, they are the one with the most flaws. They actually have a lot in common with the Rangers. A lot of great young complimentary/role players, and more on the way. Good young goalie. Gaborik/Horton, Chara/Staal, Bergeron/Anisimov, etc. But they have Seguin. We don't. If he was healthy, they'd have Savard, too.

Quote:
I like Stamkos, but I don't prefer the Lightning over our core either.
Stamkos, Hedman, Lecavalier, Downie, Malone, St. Louis, Kubina, Connolly...see, they've got the most important pieces already. Now they're working on surrounding them with the role players, because that's a lot easier to do. We did it the other way. That's where the problem lies. Now we have to find those great players. Not easy, though, is it?

Quote:
LA is a nice young team.
LA is a monster. Don't kid yourself. They are going to be stacked.

Quote:
Every team - including those "well run" franchises that you mention have their crosses to bear.
Caps - Nylander
Devils - Rolston, Kovalchuk, etc...
Bruins - Ryder
Hawks - Huet
TB - Lecavalier

Etc.. you act like only the Rangers have toxic contracts. EVERY TEAM IN THE LEAGUE DOES.
You forgot Campbell.

None of those players offer as poor a value as Drury or Redden or Gomez. Rozsival is tolerable. The comparable ones have been shipped out like Redden. Sure, Lecavalier's contract sucks, but he's still a very good player. Kovalchuk doesn't even belong on the list. Top 5 offensive player in the league just entering his primefor under 7 million.

Quote:
Kreider? Thomas? Werek? It's hard to say. Amonte was drafted 68th overall and he turned out to be the 10th or 11th leading scorer in the history of U.S. players.
Great plan. Why go after the guys that usually turn out to be sure things when you can cross your fingers and hope for the best?

All 3 are prospects I'm a big fan of. HUGE fan of Werek. But we need a Stamkos/Kane/Duchene/Kopitar.

Quote:
I disagree with this philosophy entirely. Winning organizations don't become winners by deliberately losing.
Thanks to the salary cap and other changes in the way NHL teams operate, they do. That's the only way to make a league where there is at least the potential for financial success in every NHL city, and thus a possible reason to keep a team there.

Quote:
Wow. You've lost me here. A team that's made the playoffs every year except one since the lockout is a "minor league" team. If your standard of comparison is Detroit, then sure, just about every team is going to look like ass. The Devils, however, won 3 Cups by playing defense first and not having "star mentality". Clearly, that worked for them. Doesn't work for you. I get it.
No, you don't. Martin Broduer, Scott Stevens, Scott Niedermayer, John Madden, Patrik Elias, Bobby Holik, Brian Rafalski, Petr Sykora, Alexander Mogilny, Jason Arnott...these were stars in the NHL of the late 90s-early 2000s. You had serious offensive players, one of the 2-3 best goalies of his generation, and the best defensive players in a league where defense dominated.

Quote:
The Caps are exciting. I get that, too. The past few years aside, I think this team, this year, is working extremely hard.
Again, I don't think you do. Despite the fact that it hasn't worked yet for the Capitals, it works for other teams that follow a similar formula. And it will work for the Caps, too, eventually. A lot of teams work hard. More teams than make the playoffs. The Islanders work hard.

Quote:
Yeah, and AO has much better teammates than Jagr did. Point is, Jagr was still an elite player and, I hate to say it, a better playoff performer than AO has been so far. Can you imagine if Jagr had Backstrom, Green, and Semin playing with him?
The Caps aren't the first great team to taste disappointment in the playoffs. They won't be the first to overcome that hump.

Quote:
3 one goal games and I'd argue that Miller played better than Lundqvist did.

Yeah, Ottawa had great talent. No goalie, though. But, you'll never convince me that that Rangers team wasn't good enough to go further. They were.
And yet they didn't, so they weren't. After Jagr, Straka, and Nylander, the only significant offensive player on the team was old man Shanahan.The team's top defense pairing was Michal Rozsival and Marek Malik. This is not the roster of a serious contender.

NYR Sting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2010, 09:15 AM
  #257
haohmaru
#bdwyblueshirts
 
haohmaru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fleming Island, Fl
Country: United States
Posts: 5,360
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post

What? How else do you expect to get great players, the players that win championships? You bottom out, let nature run it's course, and get restocked again. It's cyclical. If you don't join the cycle, success becomes a lot more difficult. Few achieved it in the past, and even fewer will going forward.
I'll agree with you that it worked for recent teams - particularly since the lockout. However, that doesn't change the fact that it's an unfair comparison to teams that couldn't have been in that position without adopting a policy of losing. I get that Chicago and Pittsburgh won a Cup with high draft picks and you'd like to see high end talent here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post


The best regular season teams win it all more than anyone else. Come on, that's obvious. The Caps will be fine. Not only is their current roster FAR superior to the Rangers, they're prospect pool is just as deep as the Rangers is, and contains more high-end talent.
Actually, only 7 of the past 25 overall regular season winners have gone on to win the Cup and the only two teams to finish with more points than the Capitals (121) had last year also didn't win the Cup. Sure, good teams are good.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
The Caps will soon do what the Sharks did last season: take the next step. They made the conference finals. What more do you want from them? They should have lost to the Hawks. Chicago had a better team, and their goaltender was hotter.
I'm not convinced the Caps will do much of anything with their current goaltending and lack of clutch defense. They are talented, but so were the Mets 3 years ago.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
In 2-3 years, the Lightning will be one of the 4-5 top teams in the East.
Okay - but since we were talking about how organizations have been run since the lockout, I really don't think you can throw TB in the mix since they haven't accomplished anything yet. They're off to a good start - but even if they make the playoffs and go into the second round, they still haven't been the better organization over the past 6 years.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Their best forward missed half the season, they still made the playoffs, got into the second round last season, and lost to a better Flyers team.
And collapsed. Historically collapsed. If the Rangers had done that, this place would be tearing down MSG and firing the coach. Did the Bruins fire their coach?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
No, but I'm not ready to bury them. I don't care what anyone says, a cheap Kovalchuk, Parise, Zajac, Clarkson, Volchenkov, and a few nice prospects like Tedenby, Josefson, Urbom, Corrente, and Merrill is a nice place to quickly start things from scratch, which is what Lou is probably going to do in a couple of seasons once all of the old stuff is moved into the attic. Elias, Brodeur, Rolston, Arnott, and all their other crap is off the books in 2-3 years, and most of them will not be retained. Elias and Brodeur will sign discount deals, retire, or maybe Elias tacks on for a final year or two with some other team. They have too many outs to fold.
You're enamored with scoring and sometimes overlook the bigger picture.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Yes. Los Angeles and St. Louis are also going to be taking their next respective steps this season. LA is going to be a strong team this season, and St. Louis is going to be a playoff team this season.
Again, we were talking since the lockout. Neither of these teams have been better run than the Rangers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
LA has young players like Kopitar, Doughty, Johnson, Quick, Bernier, Simmonds, Brown, Stoll, and prospects like Schenn, Loktionov, Teubert, Hickey, Voynov, Forbort. This is a treasure trove of talent. The best defenseman in the league, arguably, and one of the top 10 centers in the league. Great role players. A scary good group of defensemen.
I'm not going to analyze each and every player above. They're a good young team. I've already said so, but there are much better teams than they are in the West.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I'll say, of all of these teams, they are the one with the most flaws. They actually have a lot in common with the Rangers. A lot of great young complimentary/role players, and more on the way. Good young goalie. Gaborik/Horton, Chara/Staal, Bergeron/Anisimov, etc. But they have Seguin. We don't. If he was healthy, they'd have Savard, too.
I think Boston and the Rangers are relatively close, particularly if Stepan emerges, when healthy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Stamkos, Hedman, Lecavalier, Downie, Malone, St. Louis, Kubina, Connolly...see, they've got the most important pieces already. Now they're working on surrounding them with the role players, because that's a lot easier to do. We did it the other way. That's where the problem lies. Now we have to find those great players. Not easy, though, is it?
Downie is a "great player"? Ryan Malone? Hedman? Even Vinny hasn't been Vinny in quite some time. Stamkos is a monster. St. Louis has had an unbelievable career and tons of heart. I think TB will be much improved, but if Ryan Malone and his 20 something goals is a "great player", then I guess we have great players in Dubinsky and Callahan.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
You forgot Campbell.

None of those players offer as poor a value as Drury or Redden or Gomez. Rozsival is tolerable. The comparable ones have been shipped out like Redden. Sure, Lecavalier's contract sucks, but he's still a very good player. Kovalchuk doesn't even belong on the list. Top 5 offensive player in the league just entering his primefor under 7 million.
Totally disagree. Unless the CBA changes, the Kovalchuk contract is HUGE albatross that will haunt that franchise for YEARS - not even getting into how many picks it cost them, players it cost them, and $ it cost them. It makes Drury's 2 years seem like a walk in the park. Gomez? He's long gone, and we got back tons of value and a great player. Not your strongest argument. Redden is gone, too.

Nylander had more value than Drury? Huet? Really? C'mon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Great plan. Why go after the guys that usually turn out to be sure things when you can cross your fingers and hope for the best?
That wasn't the point I was making and you know it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
No, you don't. Martin Broduer, Scott Stevens, Scott Niedermayer, John Madden, Patrik Elias, Bobby Holik, Brian Rafalski, Petr Sykora, Alexander Mogilny, Jason Arnott...these were stars in the NHL of the late 90s-early 2000s. You had serious offensive players, one of the 2-3 best goalies of his generation, and the best defensive players in a league where defense dominated.
Serious offensive players? I'll give you Elias. Sykora? Mogilny? Madden? Mogilny was there for one out of three cups. Sykora scored 30 goals twice in a career that spanned 15 seasons, Madden has scored 20 goals twice in his career. Arnott had better years in Edmonton and Nashville than he ever had in NJ. Their defensive core and goalie were elite - and the reason they stopped winning wasn't forwards, it was no more Norris trophy candidates like Nieds, Stevens, Rafalski, etc... We're not talking your type of 1st line player here - Crosby, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Getzlaf, etc... the Devils had no one like that to win their Cups.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
The Caps aren't the first great team to taste disappointment in the playoffs. They won't be the first to overcome that hump.
My crystal ball is broken, so I'll guess we have to just wait and see.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
And yet they didn't, so they weren't. After Jagr, Straka, and Nylander, the only significant offensive player on the team was old man Shanahan.The team's top defense pairing was Michal Rozsival and Marek Malik. This is not the roster of a serious contender.
A serious contender is always more than the sum of its parts. This years NYY should prove that to you. Last years Caps should prove that to you.

I guess we'll agree to disagree on the 2006-7 group.

haohmaru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2010, 11:36 AM
  #258
JimmyStart*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,569
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
How many different clubs have won a Cup in the past 20 years?

Hawks, Pens, Wings, Ducks, 'Canes, Lightning, Devils, Avalanche, Stars, Rangers, Canadians.

10 out 30 teams. The other 20 are more mediocre than we are.

If you want to say that the Devils, Wings, Avalanche, and Penguins have been better franchises than the Rangers over that course of time, I have no problem with that.

Again, define successful. What's the difference finishing 6-8th and getting bounced in the first or second round and finishing 1-4 and getting bounced in the first round? A: a better (higher) draft pick.
This sums it up perfectly. Everything else from everyone else is just whining.

Sting is an absolutely HORRIFC poster. U should just ignore him and not even waste your breathe. As much as I'm enjoying you debate circles around him I feel bad you are spending so much time on him as I did. What you put up there says it all. Parity only goes to getting in the playoffs. When it comes to winning the cup it's anyon'es game nowadays from 1-8. The 1-4's routinely get trounced and the 1's continually fail. I would like to see a routine top contender like Wash, SJ, etc, here in NY b/c it's better than the 8 seed team but the point they are making is that this is a bad-mediocre team but they can't answer the questions compared to who? How many are really better than us.

Then he throws LA and ST. Louis in there hahahahahahaahahahaha.

Guys seem to imply routinely that the holes in our prospects and system are so obvious while routinely ignoring the holes in other teams prospects and farm systems. The way he cites the LA players you'd think they were all playing at an all star level. Same for the way he cited TB players. Are they the core of their team's futures? Yes much like Staal, Artie, Dubs, Cally, MDZ, Hank, etc are ours. But how could they all be champions if only one can win every year? Answer. Some teams will fail. Might be us. Might be them. Maybe every team get s ataste year in and year out. It's a new NHL we r only 5 years into but people wanna act like they know it all. It makes them feel safer thinking they know what's coming and how to fix it over the professional GM's and scouts. It's really sad.

Ask sting to clearly define then what is a serious contender using real examples.


Last edited by JimmyStart*: 10-24-2010 at 11:49 AM.
JimmyStart* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2010, 12:24 PM
  #259
SupersonicMonkey*
DROP THE PUCK
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 15,193
vCash: 500
The Rangers have been fairly successful post-lockout.

Got to the playoffs 4 of the last 5 years.

Only missed the playoffs by one point the year we did miss.

During those years, we have drafted very well.

The best years -post lockout- are yet to come, when some of the young players and prospects develop further.

Just take a look at our top performers this season. Anisimov, Dubinsky, Callahan, Staal, Girardi, Del Zotto, Stepan, Sauer.

Its not a coincidence. And there are more to arrive: Kreider, Werek and McDonagh specifically.

And despite what some think, Gaborik and Lundqvist are young enough to allow some of these young guys to develop a year or two.

This is going to be a very very good Rangers team soon.

SupersonicMonkey* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2010, 05:03 PM
  #260
NYR Sting
Heart and Soul
 
NYR Sting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 9,506
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Actually, only 7 of the past 25 overall regular season winners have gone on to win the Cup and the only two teams to finish with more points than the Capitals (121) had last year also didn't win the Cup. Sure, good teams are good.
It's been at least 35 years since a low seed won the Stanley Cup. The best regular season team may not always win, but one of the best regular season teams usually does.

Quote:
I'm not convinced the Caps will do much of anything with their current goaltending and lack of clutch defense. They are talented, but so were the Mets 3 years ago.
Sorry, but that is a comparison that makes little sense to me. As for clutch defense, I think John Carlson takes care of that issue nicely.

Quote:
Okay - but since we were talking about how organizations have been run since the lockout, I really don't think you can throw TB in the mix since they haven't accomplished anything yet. They're off to a good start - but even if they make the playoffs and go into the second round, they still haven't been the better organization over the past 6 years.
They've also gone through the ringer with ridiculous ownership issues. Things just got settled there, and they have one of the best young GMs in the league, and he gets to start with a franchise player at forward and a franchise player on the blueline.

Quote:
And collapsed. Historically collapsed. If the Rangers had done that, this place would be tearing down MSG and firing the coach. Did the Bruins fire their coach?
So? What's your point? I wouldn't have been one of those people. It's one thing to blow it to a worse team. IMO, the Flyers were a better hockey team at every position except goalie.

Quote:
You're enamored with scoring and sometimes overlook the bigger picture.
I could say the same regarding you and our deep, but lacking in high-end talent prospect pool.

Quote:
I'm not going to analyze each and every player above. They're a good young team. I've already said so, but there are much better teams than they are in the West.
I think you're going to find that this isn't the case going forward. They're going to be up there with DET, CHI, VAN, and SJ.

Quote:
Quote:
Downie is a "great player"? Ryan Malone? Hedman? Even Vinny hasn't been Vinny in quite some time. Stamkos is a monster. St. Louis has had an unbelievable career and tons of heart. I think TB will be much improved, but if Ryan Malone and his 20 something goals is a "great player", then I guess we have great players in Dubinsky and Callahan.
Come on, I clearly didn't mean Downie or Malone as great players. But they are solid role players that are nice pieces surrounding Stamkos, Hedman (and yes, he will be a great player), Vinny (overpaid but a 70 point center with his abilities is nice to have when you also have Stamkos), and St. Louis will continue to be good for at least 2 more years. When he's gone, they'll have Connolly to replace him (if he stays healthy), who would have been a top 3-4 pick in the draft if it wasn't for his injury history.

Quote:
Totally disagree. Unless the CBA changes, the Kovalchuk contract is HUGE albatross that will haunt that franchise for YEARS - not even getting into how many picks it cost them, players it cost them, and $ it cost them. It makes Drury's 2 years seem like a walk in the park. Gomez? He's long gone, and we got back tons of value and a great player. Not your strongest argument. Redden is gone, too.
6.6 million for a 27 year old perennial 40 goal scorer. It'll be an albatross when he's 36, maybe. Till then, it isn't going to be a big problem for them. They'll miss those picks, but in the end, it's not likely they'd have drafted anyone nearly as good with those picks anyway. The only reason they have cap problems right now is Rolston.

Quote:
Nylander had more value than Drury? Huet? Really? C'mon.
No. Like I said, the really bad ones were shipped out like Redden.

Quote:
Serious offensive players? I'll give you Elias. Sykora? Mogilny? Madden? Mogilny was there for one out of three cups. Sykora scored 30 goals twice in a career that spanned 15 seasons, Madden has scored 20 goals twice in his career. Arnott had better years in Edmonton and Nashville than he ever had in NJ. Their defensive core and goalie were elite - and the reason they stopped winning wasn't forwards, it was no more Norris trophy candidates like Nieds, Stevens, Rafalski, etc... We're not talking your type of 1st line player here - Crosby, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Getzlaf, etc... the Devils had no one like that to win their Cups.
When they won the cup, Sykora and Elias were phenomenal. Both PPG players. Mogilny was past his prime, but still a very effective goalscorer. Madden is one of the better defensive forwards of the last 25-30 years (as was Holik), I would say, and Arnott was a true power forward, a position that dominated in this league at that time. They were built perfectly to take advantage of the way the league was situated then. They had enough very good offensive players to score, and they had phenomenal defensive presences both on the blueline and upfront. Wasn't just that the lost defensemen. The league has also changed, and they're adapting to it.

NYR Sting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2010, 09:32 AM
  #261
haohmaru
#bdwyblueshirts
 
haohmaru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fleming Island, Fl
Country: United States
Posts: 5,360
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Sorry, but that is a comparison that makes little sense to me. As for clutch defense, I think John Carlson takes care of that issue nicely.
What? That a highly talented team of superstars doesn't mean you'll be any good? It makes perfect sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
They've also gone through the ringer with ridiculous ownership issues. Things just got settled there, and they have one of the best young GMs in the league, and he gets to start with a franchise player at forward and a franchise player on the blueline.
That doesn't change the fact that they haven't made the playoffs in years, have an unproven GM (despite your prognosis), and haven't performed as well as the NYR since the lockout. It's not even debatable. Why persist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
So? What's your point? I wouldn't have been one of those people. It's one thing to blow it to a worse team. IMO, the Flyers were a better hockey team at every position except goalie.
The point was would I rather have the Bruins or the Rangers - I'd rather have the Rangers. The Mets collapsed, too, and never recovered.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Come on, I clearly didn't mean Downie or Malone as great players. But they are solid role players that are nice pieces surrounding Stamkos, Hedman (and yes, he will be a great player), Vinny (overpaid but a 70 point center with his abilities is nice to have when you also have Stamkos), and St. Louis will continue to be good for at least 2 more years. When he's gone, they'll have Connolly to replace him (if he stays healthy), who would have been a top 3-4 pick in the draft if it wasn't for his injury history.
We have nice pieces surrounding Gaborik and Lundqvist, too. Callahan. Dubinsky. Stepan. Avery. Staal. MDZ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post

6.6 million for a 27 year old perennial 40 goal scorer. It'll be an albatross when he's 36, maybe. Till then, it isn't going to be a big problem for them. They'll miss those picks, but in the end, it's not likely they'd have drafted anyone nearly as good with those picks anyway. The only reason they have cap problems right now is Rolston.
A perennial 40 goal selfish player that just got his 100 million dollar ass benched and has never won a thing in the NHL of any importance. NO THANK YOU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
When they won the cup, Sykora and Elias were phenomenal. Both PPG players. Mogilny was past his prime, but still a very effective goalscorer. Madden is one of the better defensive forwards of the last 25-30 years (as was Holik), I would say, and Arnott was a true power forward, a position that dominated in this league at that time. They were built perfectly to take advantage of the way the league was situated then. They had enough very good offensive players to score, and they had phenomenal defensive presences both on the blueline and upfront. Wasn't just that the lost defensemen. The league has also changed, and they're adapting to it.
Actually, no. Sykora averaged .86 points/game in 99-00. Prospal averaged .77 points/game last year, for comparison. New Jersey's forwards weren't that special and certainly weren't following your "elite 1st round top-ten super scoring forward formula". Hell, Elias was drafted 51st overall and he's probably the best forward NJ has ever had.

haohmaru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2010, 12:36 PM
  #262
haohmaru
#bdwyblueshirts
 
haohmaru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fleming Island, Fl
Country: United States
Posts: 5,360
vCash: 500
Let me just add that since Kovalchuk was acquired (including last year, last year's playoffs, and this year) the Devils are an unremarkable 16-18-7 with him scoring 15 goals in 41 games.

haohmaru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2010, 07:39 PM
  #263
NYR Sting
Heart and Soul
 
NYR Sting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 9,506
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
What? That a highly talented team of superstars doesn't mean you'll be any good? It makes perfect sense.
The Mets weren't a highly talented bunch of superstars. They had tons of holes on that team, and they obviously didn't reach that level of success again. They're also a horribly run baseball franchise, while the Caps are one of the best-run hockey teams. The Mets have an awful farm system. The Capitals have a phenomenal one.

Again, obviously we won't change one another's minds, but don't be surprised when the Capitals are in the conference finals this season or next. I imagine they'll be making a few appearances there over the next few years. The Rangers...well, let's just say I don't expect to see them there anytime soon.

Quote:
That doesn't change the fact that they haven't made the playoffs in years, have an unproven GM (despite your prognosis), and haven't performed as well as the NYR since the lockout. It's not even debatable. Why persist?
Who's debating the past? I'm talking about now. They have a completely different owner, front office, and coaching staff. Their unproven GM will be an executive of the year soon.

Quote:
The point was would I rather have the Bruins or the Rangers - I'd rather have the Rangers. The Mets collapsed, too, and never recovered.
They collapsed in the second round to a better hockey team. As if collapse is any different than losing any playoff series. They made it to the second round of the playoffs despite their best offensive player missing half of the season and playing at under 100% in the playoffs. Oh yeah, they also traded their best goalscorer during the off-season. As a fan, that's a season you can be happy with, especially when you know that a month later your team gets to draft an 18 year old franchise center that already puts you ahead of the curve when it comes to teams around the league that still haven't figured out that unless you have an elite puck distributor, you're not going to win ****.

Quote:
We have nice pieces surrounding Gaborik and Lundqvist, too. Callahan. Dubinsky. Stepan. Avery. Staal. MDZ.
Sure, nice pieces. Not as nice as the competition, but nice.

Quote:
A perennial 40 goal selfish player that just got his 100 million dollar ass benched and has never won a thing in the NHL of any importance. NO THANK YOU.
LOL. Selfish? How do you know what he's like? How do you know why he was benched? Like anyone is ever going to win anything spending their entire career with the Atlanta Thrashers. Hard to win something when you're never on a team that's in a position to win anything. Oh, yes, wait...their ONE playoff series against the Rangers. Right, that's clearly enough to close the book on this guy.

Quote:
Actually, no. Sykora averaged .86 points/game in 99-00. Prospal averaged .77 points/game last year, for comparison. New Jersey's forwards weren't that special and certainly weren't following your "elite 1st round top-ten super scoring forward formula". Hell, Elias was drafted 51st overall and he's probably the best forward NJ has ever had.
How are you going to compare the 1999-2000 season to last year, when the rules of the league and the style of play that is prevalent in the league has changed so drastically? Last season there were 4 100 point scorers. In 99-00, there were none. 17 players reached the 80 point plateau last season, only 9 did in 99-00. My "formula" obviously is designed for success in today's NHL. Elias played 72 games that year, BTW. If he plays 82, he's one of the top 4-5 scorers in the league that season. They didn't have the best forwards, but in 99-00, that wasn't nearly as important as today. You needed the best goalie to win then. You don't anymore. You needed a suffocating defense to win then. Not today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Let me just add that since Kovalchuk was acquired (including last year, last year's playoffs, and this year) the Devils are an unremarkable 16-18-7 with him scoring 15 goals in 41 games.
So, let's throw out clearly meaningless factors like a team adjusting to the new player, player adjusting to the new team, brand new head coach, a number of aging over the hill players, etc. Because if they hadn't made the Kovalchuk trade, they'd be doing a whole lot better right now? Contrary to popular belief, the Kovalchuk trade isn't about trying to win one more with Marty. It's about what happens after Marty. All of the top teams around the league have 2-3 serious offensive threats. Going forward, the Devils do, too.

NYR Sting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2010, 09:45 AM
  #264
haohmaru
#bdwyblueshirts
 
haohmaru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fleming Island, Fl
Country: United States
Posts: 5,360
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
The Mets weren't a highly talented bunch of superstars. They had tons of holes on that team, and they obviously didn't reach that level of success again. They're also a horribly run baseball franchise, while the Caps are one of the best-run hockey teams. The Mets have an awful farm system. The Capitals have a phenomenal one.
The point was that talent alone doesn't win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Who's debating the past? I'm talking about now. They have a completely different owner, front office, and coaching staff. Their unproven GM will be an executive of the year soon.
That's exactly what we were talking about. Best-run teams since the lockout. Tampa isn't one of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post

They collapsed in the second round to a better hockey team. As if collapse is any different than losing any playoff series. They made it to the second round of the playoffs despite their best offensive player missing half of the season and playing at under 100% in the playoffs. Oh yeah, they also traded their best goalscorer during the off-season. As a fan, that's a season you can be happy with, especially when you know that a month later your team gets to draft an 18 year old franchise center that already puts you ahead of the curve when it comes to teams around the league that still haven't figured out that unless you have an elite puck distributor, you're not going to win ****.
You think the Bruins fans are happy about not having Kessel around because they have Seguin? LOL. It's not like Kessel is an old man (23) and it's not like Seguin is a 40+ goal scoring threat. If Sather did something like that this fan base would burn effigies of him on 33rd Street. All this time you're going on and on about regular season teams and how they finish being important, yet when discussing this particular team, who finished ahead of the team they were playing, their opponent was the "better team". The Flyers were a shootout goal away from not even being there and were down 3-0 to the B's.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
LOL. Selfish? How do you know what he's like? How do you know why he was benched? Like anyone is ever going to win anything spending their entire career with the Atlanta Thrashers. Hard to win something when you're never on a team that's in a position to win anything. Oh, yes, wait...their ONE playoff series against the Rangers. Right, that's clearly enough to close the book on this guy.
LOL? I've seen him play. Have you?

In any event, how many games is enough? How many seasons is enough? This is his TENTH year in the NHL and he's played a grand total of NINE playoff games in those year. And, for the record, I'm not arguing that he's a bad player, I'm arguing that he's not worth $100 million over the next 15 years and that that contract move and all of the losses ($, picks, players) incurred by the Devils will hurt them for a very long time. People now are starting to call them the NJ Thrashers. And you know what? I'm not a typical Rangers fan that hates the Devils and I think it's kind of sad to see MB basically playing by himself and watching this team (so far) be a shell of what it was.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
How are you going to compare the 1999-2000 season to last year, when the rules of the league and the style of play that is prevalent in the league has changed so drastically? Last season there were 4 100 point scorers. In 99-00, there were none. 17 players reached the 80 point plateau last season, only 9 did in 99-00. My "formula" obviously is designed for success in today's NHL. Elias played 72 games that year, BTW. If he plays 82, he's one of the top 4-5 scorers in the league that season. They didn't have the best forwards, but in 99-00, that wasn't nearly as important as today. You needed the best goalie to win then. You don't anymore. You needed a suffocating defense to win then. Not today.
I wasn't comparing anything to anything. You said Sykora was a point-per-game player. I corrected you. He wasn't.

For the record, Jagr had 96 points in 63 games that year to lead the NHL. Bure had 94 points in 74 games. Sakic had 81 in 60 games. If any of them had played the entire season there would have been a 100 point scorer, or three, and there were only four in the NHL last season.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
So, let's throw out clearly meaningless factors like a team adjusting to the new player, player adjusting to the new team, brand new head coach, a number of aging over the hill players, etc. Because if they hadn't made the Kovalchuk trade, they'd be doing a whole lot better right now? Contrary to popular belief, the Kovalchuk trade isn't about trying to win one more with Marty. It's about what happens after Marty. All of the top teams around the league have 2-3 serious offensive threats. Going forward, the Devils do, too.
41 games and counting...

This is where I don't really get your position at all. You hem and haw about elite draft picks and how important they are and here's what the Devils gave up for Kovalchuk:

Bergfors (1st round, 23rd overall. 8 G 12 A since the trade)
Oduya (top four D on any team in the league. 1 G 11 A since the trade)
Cormier (54th overall)
2010 1st, 2nd, 3rd round picks
Another 1st round pick
$3 Million dollars

So, if you compare just Oduya and Bergfors (9 G, 23 A) to Kovalchuk (13 G 20 A) you come with a one point differential so far since the trade. Not to mention 4 substantial draft picks AND a top 9 forward prospect AND one of the worst contracts in the NHL.

Kovalchuk is an elite scorer, sure, but transactions like the above set back a franchise for 5 years. He's not even a Center for god's sake.

Totally, completely disagree with you on this move for NJ.

(Edit) added a Bobby Holik interview which pretty much echoed my thoughts about the Devils and Kovalchuk as a teammate: http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Sports/Hoc.../ID=1624880450


Last edited by haohmaru: 10-26-2010 at 10:32 AM.
haohmaru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2010, 02:11 PM
  #265
NYR Sting
Heart and Soul
 
NYR Sting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 9,506
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
The point was that talent alone doesn't win.
But it certainly gives you a better chance to win than not having much talent at all.

Quote:
That's exactly what we were talking about. Best-run teams since the lockout. Tampa isn't one of them.
I'm talking about the best-run teams NOW. Today. I think the Lightning had a great summer since Yzerman took over.

Quote:
You think the Bruins fans are happy about not having Kessel around because they have Seguin? LOL. It's not like Kessel is an old man (23) and it's not like Seguin is a 40+ goal scoring threat. If Sather did something like that this fan base would burn effigies of him on 33rd Street. All this time you're going on and on about regular season teams and how they finish being important, yet when discussing this particular team, who finished ahead of the team they were playing, their opponent was the "better team". The Flyers were a shootout goal away from not even being there and were down 3-0 to the B's.
They should be. I'd rather have Seguin than Kessel. Who cares what this fanbase would do? This fanbase...don't get me started on this fanbase.

The Flyers have a stacked team and only injuries to their goaltending prevented them from locking up a higher seed. They're a better team than they finished in the regular season, and they were a better team than the Bruins, who again, made the second round of the playoffs as the 6th seed. That's a solid season, especially when you're in a position the next season to do even better.

Quote:
LOL? I've seen him play. Have you?
Sure have. What makes him a selfish player? The man's job is to score goals, because he does it better than most of his peers. I don't think he's a selfish player at all, especially when you take into account the fact that he's been playing on horrible teams for the immense majority of his career. Was Bure a selfish player?

Quote:
In any event, how many games is enough? How many seasons is enough? This is his TENTH year in the NHL and he's played a grand total of NINE playoff games in those year.
Awful team, awful franchise with terrible management, financial issues, poor drafting history, and some very unlucky breaks (Dan Snyder incident) that threw things off kilter for them.

Quote:
And, for the record, I'm not arguing that he's a bad player, I'm arguing that he's not worth $100 million over the next 15 years and that that contract move and all of the losses ($, picks, players) incurred by the Devils will hurt them for a very long time. People now are starting to call them the NJ Thrashers. And you know what? I'm not a typical Rangers fan that hates the Devils and I think it's kind of sad to see MB basically playing by himself and watching this team (so far) be a shell of what it was.
The only part about acquiring Kovalchuk that will really hurt the Devils is the ******** penalties imposed on them by the league. That WILL hurt them, but that isn't their fault, and it isn't Kovalchuk's. It's the NHL's fault for not being happy with the rules they agreed upon, and for being hypocrites.

The trade they initially gave up for him is a great deal for them, he's a much better player than any of them are or will be. And his contract may hurt them in the last few years of his career, but for at least the first half of the deal, they have one of the premier goalscorers in the league on a discount.

MB was going to be basically playing by himself this year either way. That's the point. NJ was going to go through some growing pains this year and next year anyway you slice it. They're entering a period of transition. They'll exit it with a 40-50 goal threat in his prime with a 6.6 mill cap hit.

Quote:
I wasn't comparing anything to anything. You said Sykora was a point-per-game player. I corrected you. He wasn't.
I was referring to the following season, when he had 81 in 73, more than a PPG. My mistake.

Quote:
For the record, Jagr had 96 points in 63 games that year to lead the NHL. Bure had 94 points in 74 games. Sakic had 81 in 60 games. If any of them had played the entire season there would have been a 100 point scorer, or three, and there were only four in the NHL last season.
Wouldn't change the other number, which is a better indicator of what I'm talking about.

Quote:
This is where I don't really get your position at all. You hem and haw about elite draft picks and how important they are and here's what the Devils gave up for Kovalchuk:

Bergfors (1st round, 23rd overall. 8 G 12 A since the trade)
Oduya (top four D on any team in the league. 1 G 11 A since the trade)
Cormier (54th overall)
2010 1st, 2nd, 3rd round picks
Another 1st round pick
$3 Million dollars

So, if you compare just Oduya and Bergfors (9 G, 23 A) to Kovalchuk (13 G 20 A) you come with a one point differential so far since the trade. Not to mention 4 substantial draft picks AND a top 9 forward prospect AND one of the worst contracts in the NHL.

Kovalchuk is an elite scorer, sure, but transactions like the above set back a franchise for 5 years. He's not even a Center for god's sake.
The importance of draft picks is so you can get a guy like Kovalchuk in the first place. Again, the original price they paid was nothing. Bergfors is already in the doghouse in Atlanta, Oduya is a very average defenseman, and Cormier...who wants to deal with his issues? As a team, those are the kind of distractions you don't need. The extra draft pick will hurt, but that's on the NHL, not on the Devils. And there's no reason to believe that his contract is bad. It's a discount. Hypothetically speaking, if we could sign him as a free agent to that contract, I'd do it in a heartbeat. The years when he won't be worth it are years where he'll probably leave and go to Russia, where the KHL will just pay for all or most of his deal anyway.

Quote:
(Edit) added a Bobby Holik interview which pretty much echoed my thoughts about the Devils and Kovalchuk as a teammate: http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Sports/Hoc.../ID=1624880450
I don't think Ilya Kovalchuk is the guy you build a team around, either. That's what Zach Parise is for. Let Parise be the face, and let Kovalchuk be the guy scoring 40-50 goals a season. What's the problem? I don't think Kovalchuk was ever looking to be the face of a franchise.

NYR Sting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2010, 02:40 PM
  #266
ecemleafs
Registered User
 
ecemleafs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 10,065
vCash: 500
do you think torts is "secretly" trying to keep sauer from playing every game because of how injury prone he's been in the past?

ecemleafs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2010, 03:37 PM
  #267
RangerFan10
Registered User
 
RangerFan10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Long Island/Plattsbu
Country: United States
Posts: 5,327
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to RangerFan10
I've admittedly only skimmed through some of these posts because they're pretty long.

The difference up to this point between teams with "toxic" contracts and the rangers is you need to find great value in other players. We have that in Del Zotto, Anisimov, MAYBE Stepan, and Dubinsky is looking like he'll be worth much more than his 1.8 cap hit. Everyone else on this team is making at least what they should probably make, and in a lot of cases more (Roszival, White, Eminger, Gilroy, Boogard, Drury) and obviously, prior to this season, many other names fall into that category.

Teams like the Hawks, Wings, etc. realize when it's time to spend and when it's not. You don't overpay for 3rd or 4th line guys, you don't overspend for 2nd or 3rd pair defenseman. They're a dime a dozen in this league, no matter how attached to certain ones you may get. When was the last time a team that did anything in the playoffs had the amount of bad contracts we've had at once without having a great player making far less than they should be do anything? The Hawks can deal with Campbell and Huet's contracts (and to a lesser extent Kim Johnsson no problem when Toews and Kane were making less than Campbell does a year combined and Keith and Seabrook were making less than Huet combined. Not to mention a guy like Hjamarlsson is making less than 700K, Niemi making 825K, etc.

Given, a lot of that is good drafting and getting into the lottery, but the Rangers have no excuse. If they do something with the picks they wasted on Brendl, Lundmark, Malhotra, Jessiman and Montoya who's to say they're not in a much better position today?

IMO It's fine to overspend on top 6 talent and top 3 defenseman in free agency. Anything else, you should really be able to find at fair value or produce in your system. There's no reason at all Boogard should make what he makes, there's no reason we should've signed Rissmiller or Voros, there's no reason for White or Eminger to be here, there was no reason to give Gilroy as much money as he got. All that stuff adds up. You can afford to have one or two mistakes, you can't afford to have ones as big as Drury's contract and then have smaller ones like the ones I've listed.

RangerFan10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2010, 03:39 PM
  #268
RangerFan10
Registered User
 
RangerFan10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Long Island/Plattsbu
Country: United States
Posts: 5,327
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to RangerFan10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecemleafs View Post
do you think torts is "secretly" trying to keep sauer from playing every game because of how injury prone he's been in the past?
I don't think it really matters that much to be honest...Sauer has been good, but if he gets hurt I don't think we see much drop off with Valentenko or McDonagh up with the big club. We have fairly solid organizational depth at defense.

RangerFan10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2010, 03:43 PM
  #269
RangerFan10
Registered User
 
RangerFan10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Long Island/Plattsbu
Country: United States
Posts: 5,327
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to RangerFan10
That being said, I really like the position we're in, especially with Drury and Roszival coming off the books soon. I just hope we use our cap space wisely. We have a good young core when you look at it...Anisimov, Dubinsky, Callahan, Stepan, Del Zotto, Staal, Girardi, Sauer with Valentenko and McDonagh both looking like players that will either produce in the NHL with us or yield something useful in a trade. Plenty of other promising prospects that it's too early to tell with, Werek, MZA and Kreider the most promising at this point IMO

RangerFan10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2010, 04:22 PM
  #270
n8
WAAAAAAA!!!
 
n8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: san francisco
Country: United States
Posts: 7,399
vCash: 500
I still look forward to the day we can see Staal and Sauer play together. Just seems like a solid shut down pair.

n8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:48 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.