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Phillies 2010 Postseason: Red October IV, R2C2: Return of the Jedi

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Old
10-24-2010, 08:05 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You have to remember you're talking about VERY small samples. He hit well, just not in the right spots... and that was helped along by situational lefties in the key spots (Howard has his weaknesses). Howard had some big hits (including last night) that just didn't result in runs.

On the other side... his teammates failed to knock him in on more than one occasion after he'd gotten on base.

The better team did not win this series. However, that's the way it goes in short series. The Phils have just as good starting pitching, and demonstrably better hitting... just didn't get the key hits in a 6 game series. Of course, I also think we may have won Game 4 if they don't run Ruiz into a *ing idiotic out at the plate. But that's just me.
Yes, it did. Just as I said, that doesn't mean they're more talented overall (because they're not)... but it's ignorant not to give the Giants the credit they deserve for playing better than us. They made key pitches and got key hits when they needed them, and we didn't. The Giants were the better team in THIS series. Period.

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10-24-2010, 08:16 PM
  #102
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New Question

Mike Sweeney...would he come back and would the Phillies have him back? Back up role obviously, but the guy seems like he wants to win really bad, and I don't think a winning team will give him an opportunity as a starter since he gets hurt a lot. He can give Howard some more days off, too.

People talk about needing a better bench, so...

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10-24-2010, 08:48 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
Yes, it did. Just as I said, that doesn't mean they're more talented overall (because they're not)... but it's ignorant not to give the Giants the credit they deserve for playing better than us. They made key pitches and got key hits when they needed them, and we didn't. The Giants were the better team in THIS series. Period.
Just because they played better in this small sample of games doesn't mean they're a better team.

The Phillies are better than the Giants.

And Sweeney seems like he would love to come back and would probably do so cheaply. Wouldn't mind having him around.

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10-24-2010, 09:23 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
New Question

Mike Sweeney...would he come back and would the Phillies have him back? Back up role obviously, but the guy seems like he wants to win really bad, and I don't think a winning team will give him an opportunity as a starter since he gets hurt a lot. He can give Howard some more days off, too.

People talk about needing a better bench, so...
I wouldn't. He can only play first and we all know Charlie rides Howard into the ground during the season, so he'd be pretty much PH-only. Kind of a wasted roster spot.

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10-24-2010, 09:26 PM
  #105
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Question from the outside, and sorry if it's been answered already.

Assuming that Brown takes over for Werth, that gives the Phillies six lefties in their lineup, the only righties being Ruiz and Polanco. Is Amaro concerned with this, and might he try to get rid of Ibanez to either get "righter" or keep Werth?

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10-24-2010, 10:03 PM
  #106
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Question from the outside, and sorry if it's been answered already.

Assuming that Brown takes over for Werth, that gives the Phillies six lefties in their lineup, the only righties being Ruiz and Polanco. Is Amaro concerned with this, and might he try to get rid of Ibanez to either get "righter" or keep Werth?
This is what I'm wondering. Werth is gone, but Ibanez is on his last year of his contract so he may moved. But the Phillies will probably have to pay part of his salary. Amaro has to find another right handed bat since Werth is gone, but I dont knwo who really.

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10-24-2010, 10:12 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
Yes, it did. Just as I said, that doesn't mean they're more talented overall (because they're not)... but it's ignorant not to give the Giants the credit they deserve for playing better than us. They made key pitches and got key hits when they needed them, and we didn't. The Giants were the better team in THIS series. Period.
Which does not make them "the better team." Means they won 4 out of 7 games.

And who is not giving them credit? I've been telling the cocky folks in these threads talking about how we were going to cut through 'em like butter that it was idiotic to think that way. The Giants have a very good team -- any team with that level of pitching is a very good team -- but they're not better than the Phils, and if you ran out and played that series 10x the Phils would win more series than they'd lose.

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10-24-2010, 10:13 PM
  #108
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I wouldn't. He can only play first and we all know Charlie rides Howard into the ground during the season, so he'd be pretty much PH-only. Kind of a wasted roster spot.
Gload can play 1B, too... with a lot more value as someone that can play OF as well.

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10-24-2010, 10:51 PM
  #109
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Just because they played better in this small sample of games doesn't mean they're a better team.

The Phillies are better than the Giants.

And Sweeney seems like he would love to come back and would probably do so cheaply. Wouldn't mind having him around.
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Which does not make them "the better team." Means they won 4 out of 7 games.

And who is not giving them credit? I've been telling the cocky folks in these threads talking about how we were going to cut through 'em like butter that it was idiotic to think that way. The Giants have a very good team -- any team with that level of pitching is a very good team -- but they're not better than the Phils, and if you ran out and played that series 10x the Phils would win more series than they'd lose.
Come on, you're both better readers than this. I'm not saying the Giants are better than the Phillies, please understand that. All I said is that the Giants were better than the Phillies in THIS series. I don't really think that's disputable. It wasn't like losing this series to the Giants was a fluke. The Giants played better and deserved to win. That's all I'm saying.

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10-24-2010, 11:19 PM
  #110
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An early look at the off-season decisions facing the Phillies...

http://www.csnphilly.com/10/24/10/bS...056&feedID=704

Anyone who thinks Werth will take a hometown discount of any kind (on years or money) is going to be very unhappy. He's gone, and everyone knows it, even the players. As Ross Gload said to Werth last night as he left the clubhouse: "Don't let those Yankees boss you around." In the end, Philly will merely have served as the place where Jayson put it all together and laid the foundation to cash in on a juicy long-term contract. With Boras as his agent and calling him a "franchise player" (give me a break), there's no way he accepts anything less than the contract Matt Holliday received -- and I'm sure some unfortunate team is going to give it to him. It'll probably be one of the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, or Angels -- although one of those teams will be out of the running once it signs Carl Crawford.

For us, we need to do some serious house cleaning. For the love of all things holy, if Cliff Lee is receptive to the idea of coming back to Philly, offer him a big time contract. I know the Phillies are adamantly against giving pitchers anything more than 3-year deals, but I think this specific situation supersedes that philosophy. We won't be able to offer Cliff as much as the Yankees or Red Sox, but we can offer him a contract that's appealing enough to the point that, if he really wants to come back to Philly, it can happen. Of course, Amaro can't even begin to think about offering Cliff that type of contract without first finding a way to unload Blanton, Ibanez, and the other dead weight that's eating up way too much money. It just angers me to no end that Ruben jumped at the opportunity to give Howard 5 years and $125M but fed us that line of crap about trading Cliff Lee because he feared he couldn't sign him long-term. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! You can't offer Cliff Lee $20+M over a long-term deal -- when starting pitching is the most important commodity in this game -- but you can offer that kind of term and obscene money to a soon-to-be-31-year-old slugger who could very well be trending downward on his career slope?! How does that make any sense, especially when you consider that signing Howard to an extension -- if the team decided that was the way to go -- could have gotten done during the 2011 season? Howard always dedicates himself in the off-season to improving one facet of his game. Well, this off-season he needs to focus on finding a way to get his power back, otherwise he's useless to us -- and cripplingly expensive at that.

Next year there has to be a concentrated effort to start infusing some youth into this roster. We know Dom Brown will be starting/platooning in RF, and it'll be exciting to see how he does in his first full season in the majors. It's also time to see if Mathieson can be a part of our bullpen going forward. Same goes for Bastardo (please develop another pitch). I'd also like to see the Kyle Kendrick experiment end, in favor of giving Vance Worley the #5 spot in the starting rotation.

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10-24-2010, 11:20 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Of course, I also think we may have won Game 4 if they don't run Ruiz into a *ing idiotic out at the plate. But that's just me.
Not just you. That may have been the pivot point of the series.

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10-24-2010, 11:31 PM
  #112
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Gload can play 1B, too... with a lot more value as someone that can play OF as well.
I mean anyone can really play first. Sweeney was a nice pickup when Howard went down, but if you can't do more than play first and pinch hit you're not really a player I want to commit a bench spot to.

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10-24-2010, 11:37 PM
  #113
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Not just you. That may have been the pivot point of the series.
As much as that pissed me off, Charlie taking Contreras out after 1 batter and brining in durbin was a killer.

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10-24-2010, 11:38 PM
  #114
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Again, sending Ruiz was the right thing to do. It took a perfect throw from Rowand to get him. If Oswalt can score from 2nd on a close throw, why can't Ruiz?

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10-24-2010, 11:54 PM
  #115
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Werth is gone and that will make the Phillies popless from the right. It was also make life more difficult for Ryan Howard...

...who is destined to be booed if he doesn't learn to make contact with two strikes. He's the worst two strike hitter I think I have ever seen, and CANNOT earn his money striking out as he does. That said...

...he DID have a big double in Game Six but Jimmy Rollins couldn't get around the bases. In any previous year, this Phils take the lead there.

Not sure the notion that the Phillies have the better team holds a whole lot of water. I guess I like the Phils OF better, but maybe not with Ross playing like he did. The Phils have the better IF, it appears, but not with Rollins hobbled and Utley sore and Howard with SEVENTEEN strikeouts in nine games. Phils have a nice edge at starter but the Giants have the better pen.

If you don't like small "sample sizes", then you can look at the regular season and see that the Phillies won 5 more games than the Giants, and you could attribute all of that, and more, to the fact that the Phils were 16 games above .500 in their division while the Giants were 4 games over in theirs.

BA
PHL .260
SFO .257

ERA
SFO 3.36
PHL 3.67

No, the Phillies are NOT the [demonstrably] better team.

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10-25-2010, 12:13 AM
  #116
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Using team batting average and ERA to justify your argument, lol.

Not even Giants homers think they have a better team than the Phillies. They played better in a short playoff series, that's it.

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10-25-2010, 12:39 AM
  #117
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Oh my goodness - it's the "but who was the better team?" discussion. Cut your losses and flee from this semantics rathole.

Isn't most of the charm of competitive sporting events their imperfect nature in determining a champion?


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I'm sorry, but it is ridiculous to blame Howard.
He's getting blamed because of the 0 RBIs statistic that was pounded into the viewers head over the course of the NLCS.

Of course, that's a statistical aberration and bad luck as much as anything - not necessarily indicative of a lack of performance. It's just, that's the stat that people will walk away remembering.


Last edited by Readyrock: 10-25-2010 at 12:45 AM.
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10-25-2010, 08:17 AM
  #118
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Howard won't get many RBI's when no one is on base. Although the one time there finally was the season ended.

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10-25-2010, 08:31 AM
  #119
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It was also make life more difficult for Ryan Howard...

...who is destined to be booed if he doesn't learn to make contact with two strikes. He's the worst two strike hitter I think I have ever seen, and CANNOT earn his money striking out as he does. That said...
He needs to live the entire off-season at Barry Bonds's house. He came out of the gates looking remarkably better this year in that regard after he hung out with Bonds over the winter and then reverted back to normal after he had time to forget everything he learned.

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10-25-2010, 10:05 AM
  #120
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Again, sending Ruiz was the right thing to do. It took a perfect throw from Rowand to get him. If Oswalt can score from 2nd on a close throw, why can't Ruiz?
GKJ... sending Ruiz was *ing idiotic. Did you not see the Giants make the same mistake on the same exact play and get their guy (much faster than Ruiz... believe it was Torres) gunned at the plate by Victorino?

It was not even remotely close to being the right thing to do with the top of the order at the plate. It immediately cost the Phils a run, and may have cost them a bigger inning.

And Oswalt did not score on a groundball single up the middle that allowed the CF to charge into with all his momentum directed at home plate. Not comparable plays.

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10-25-2010, 10:09 AM
  #121
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For us, we need to do some serious house cleaning. For the love of all things holy, if Cliff Lee is receptive to the idea of coming back to Philly, offer him a big time contract. I know the Phillies are adamantly against giving pitchers anything more than 3-year deals, but I think this specific situation supersedes that philosophy.
Erm... at what point do we stop talking about Cliff Lee?

With Halladay, Hamels, and Oswalt... we need to devote our resources elsewhere. Hell, Oswalt can be here for the next couple years no problem given that he has an option year that can get tagged on after next year if they want.

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10-25-2010, 11:23 AM
  #122
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Erm... at what point do we stop talking about Cliff Lee?

With Halladay, Hamels, and Oswalt... we need to devote our resources elsewhere. Hell, Oswalt can be here for the next couple years no problem given that he has an option year that can get tagged on after next year if they want.
When he signs the richest contract in history for a starting pitcher and the fantasy of getting him back is no longer even a remotely possible reality.

Amaro has a considerable challenge on his hands.

Also, I loathed Ryan Howard's attitude after the game. His aversion to taking responsibility was McNabbian, and equally as disheartening. Just man up and admit you didn't come through when the team need you most. He then tried to point to his 31 HR and 108 RBI as evidence that he didn't have a down year. Give me a break, dude. You are USELESS to this team if those are your numbers, I don't care if you missed 15 games or whatever due to injury.

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10-25-2010, 11:26 AM
  #123
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Erm... at what point do we stop talking about Cliff Lee?

With Halladay, Hamels, and Oswalt... we need to devote our resources elsewhere. Hell, Oswalt can be here for the next couple years no problem given that he has an option year that can get tagged on after next year if they want.
Lee will be forgotten around the same time that Upshall is forgotten

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10-25-2010, 11:28 AM
  #124
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Howard had 17 RBI's last postseason and he even set a record for games in a row with RBI's. The blame should not go on Howard, it should be on guys like Utley, Ibanez, Victorino, Rollins, and Manuel.

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10-25-2010, 11:31 AM
  #125
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Erm... at what point do we stop talking about Cliff Lee?

With Halladay, Hamels, and Oswalt... we need to devote our resources elsewhere. Hell, Oswalt can be here for the next couple years no problem given that he has an option year that can get tagged on after next year if they want.
Never, he was a fan favorite in this town and if he leads Texas to a World Series(which I think he will) it will only magnify it.

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