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#8: Flyers @ Blue Jackets - Monday, Oct. 25, 2010 - 7:00 PM (ET)

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Old
10-26-2010, 07:57 AM
  #526
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Only to those who didn't want to see reality last year.



"I really want to see this team after a training camp with Laviolette."

Oh wait...
So many people seem to forget how close this team came to being blown up.
It is really unreal the approach this team seems to have. After coming so close you would think they would have done everything to come out like gangbusters. Guess they didnt learn any lessons from last season, which is scary.

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10-26-2010, 10:08 AM
  #527
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Yeah, since when are Pens fans a fount of hockey knowledge?

Kunitz had 18 in 20 his first year in Pittsburgh, 32 in 50 playing hurt last year, he's a solid 50 point guy and he showed that in Anaheim.

Dupuis was a consistent 25 point guy before he got to Pitt, sure his totals went up a bit last year, but he's a decent 3rd liner.

I'd take Asham back in a millisecond for this team, not sure why he's being bashed, he's a solid 3rd liner.

Cooke is another one who's a very, very good 3rd liner.

And Kennedy is fine, probably a 40 point player in this league.
So...what you're saying is that no Pens fans know what they're talking about just because they're our rivals? And you know better then them despite not watching nearly enough of their games? Riiight, that's not arrogant at all.

Fact of the matter is that they have no legit top six wingers except for arguably Kunitz and their best winger thus far has been a rookie.

It's a well-established fact that Pittsburgh is a team that lives off of three centers and their goalie. If Fleury continues to be a sieve in goal or any of their top three centers go down then I can't see them being Cup contenders. Everywhere outside of their center depth their lineup is either bad or average so it makes sense that if any of those centers go down then they're in trouble.

I'm curious to see how that Staal converting to a top six wing thing is going to work out for them.

Oh, watching paint dry was almost as fun as watching the Flyers last night.

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10-26-2010, 11:10 AM
  #528
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I am kind of shocked at anyone who thinks Richards and Carter are having issues because Gagne is gone. I think that's nonsense.

As for Carter, I didn't know he was still getting maintenance days. They did say he took a shot off his foot in pre-season and he was getting days off then, but is he still getting them now?

I thought the Richards line was really forcing the play last night at times but with linemates like Carcillo, Powe, an invisible JvR and Zherdev, it's no wonder they aren't doing much. I think the top guys are pressing too much to make up for the lack of talent they're stuck with. Last year, Richards spent a ton of time trying to set Gagne up to get him going after he returned from his injury and he doesn't play well when that happens.
He got one a the other day, which is at least his 2nd already this season.

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10-26-2010, 11:19 AM
  #529
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Only to those who didn't want to see reality last year.



"I really want to see this team after a training camp with Laviolette."

Oh wait...
JXC I knew you were somewhere out there waiting for the right moment. Jones and Stevens still suck. Relax there bud.

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10-26-2010, 11:31 AM
  #530
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
So many people seem to forget how close this team came to being blown up.
It is really unreal the approach this team seems to have. After coming so close you would think they would have done everything to come out like gangbusters. Guess they didnt learn any lessons from last season, which is scary.
This team seriously seems to have a learning disability.

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10-26-2010, 11:34 AM
  #531
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funny how some people show up on this board when the Flyers are struggling.

wonder what Holmgren thinks if his blossoming forward in Shelley.
Yeah who cares if we cant score goals, so long as we are physical, beat people up.

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10-26-2010, 11:39 AM
  #532
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funny how some people show up on this board when the Flyers are struggling.

wonder what Holmgren thinks if his blossoming forward in Shelley.
Yeah who cares if we cant score goals, so long as we are physical, beat people up.
The Broad Street Bullies won that way, SO CAN WE!

Amirite?

...Seriously, though. People in this organization fail to realize that big, physical players are only helpful when they can also play.

Also, what's with the whole retired jersey celebrations? Is there an anniversary or something, or are we just randomly celebrating our past greats? I didn't know we were the Habs. It seems so random and arbitrary, and I feel like it's symptomatic of the whole Flyers mentality. Let's keep worshiping our past and hopping that, one day, the same mentality that worked over 35 years ago will pay off again...

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10-26-2010, 12:08 PM
  #533
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
The Broad Street Bullies won that way, SO CAN WE!

Amirite?

...Seriously, though. People in this organization fail to realize that big, physical players are only helpful when they can also play.

Also, what's with the whole retired jersey celebrations? Is there an anniversary or something, or are we just randomly celebrating our past greats? I didn't know we were the Habs. It seems so random and arbitrary, and I feel like it's symptomatic of the whole Flyers mentality. Let's keep worshiping our past and hopping that, one day, the same mentality that worked over 35 years ago will pay off again...
A few things. First, the Flyers are giving away the banners that used to hang in the Spectrum. The ones in the WF Center are replicas. The family of Barry Ashbee is getting the one that is no longer needed in the soon-to-be-demolished Spectrum. I imagine the other banners (Clarke, Parent, and Barber) will be given to the former players themselves.

Second, the mentality that Keith Allen, GM of the Stanley Cup-winning teams, was NOT to build a team of goons - it was to build the team from the goalie out. The mentality of toughness was Snider's after the Blues manhandled the Flyers in the playoffs in 1968 & 1969. People too often forget that the Flyers' toughest players were capable of scoring as well. It was Shero who said (paraphrased), "If you can't beat 'em in the alley, you can't beat 'em on the ice." However, what Clarke and Holmgren need to remember is that it was Parent that anchored that team's chances to win. Heck, even Stephenson was a great goalie (beat the Soviets) and Favell was no slouch.

Third, if the fans and front office could remember HOW they won (outworking other teams with muscle and effort; stellar goalie), things would be more peaceful amongst the Flyers' fanbase.

Or not.

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10-26-2010, 12:56 PM
  #534
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We also only have one line (Briere's) that hasn't been juggled around consistently. And even when Briere has a bad game, that line still manages to produce. I think we'd all agree that, in aggregate, that line is pretty much fine and should do good things moving forward.

That line is also the only one that makes sense in terms of having each player in their natural position.

The other lines are chock full o' Centers and since the team only has 8 top 9 players, one of them is going to be saddled with dead weight.

Putting a 4th line player on a top line that is comprised of two other Centers isn't ideal, even if it still isn't an excuse for much of the lazy play.

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10-26-2010, 01:23 PM
  #535
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For the people ragging on Shelley and Zherdev for playing so bad ( I agree they are) , the fact that they have the same amount of points as Carter in the last 5 games is a WAY bigger issue with this team, yet Carter gets a pass.

It is well known around here I am not Carter's biggest fan, but I said this year I was going to be subjective and really watch his play, but 8 games in, I can't do it anymore. He has no drive when crossing the blueline, can't make a pass for the life of him, and is brutal along the boards on the PP. He needs to score to justify making 5 mill a year, and he is barely even creating any offense.

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10-26-2010, 01:28 PM
  #536
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Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
For the people ragging on Shelley and Zherdev for playing so bad ( I agree they are) , the fact that they have the same amount of points as Carter in the last 5 games is a WAY bigger issue with this team, yet Carter gets a pass.
Have you been here lately?

Quote:
It is well known around here I am not Carter's biggest fan, but I said this year I was going to be subjective and really watch his play, but 8 games in, I can't do it anymore. He has no drive when crossing the blueline, can't make a pass for the life of him, and is brutal along the boards on the PP. He needs to score to justify making 5 mill a year, and he is barely even creating any offense.
That would be Cartsiephan.

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10-26-2010, 01:39 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
For the people ragging on Shelley and Zherdev for playing so bad ( I agree they are) , the fact that they have the same amount of points as Carter in the last 5 games is a WAY bigger issue with this team, yet Carter gets a pass.
I hate Shelley but he has played exactly the same as he's played every other game of his career. Only an idiot (Holmgren) would have expected anything different. The team bought **** and it got ****. Hard to blame the player for that...

It's not like Zherdev who is expected to score 25 goals (which I do think that he'll end up doing.)

We have a team that is built to be great defensively at ES and thrive offensively on the PP. Obviously that isn't happening though there is no way that the PP stays this bad over the course of 82 games. But, at the very least, the team has to get back to the old strategy of not letting the other team score at ES and then capitalizing on PP chances.

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10-26-2010, 01:46 PM
  #538
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Originally Posted by Flyskippy View Post
A few things. First, the Flyers are giving away the banners that used to hang in the Spectrum. The ones in the WF Center are replicas. The family of Barry Ashbee is getting the one that is no longer needed in the soon-to-be-demolished Spectrum. I imagine the other banners (Clarke, Parent, and Barber) will be given to the former players themselves.

Second, the mentality that Keith Allen, GM of the Stanley Cup-winning teams, was NOT to build a team of goons - it was to build the team from the goalie out. The mentality of toughness was Snider's after the Blues manhandled the Flyers in the playoffs in 1968 & 1969. People too often forget that the Flyers' toughest players were capable of scoring as well. It was Shero who said (paraphrased), "If you can't beat 'em in the alley, you can't beat 'em on the ice." However, what Clarke and Holmgren need to remember is that it was Parent that anchored that team's chances to win. Heck, even Stephenson was a great goalie (beat the Soviets) and Favell was no slouch.

Third, if the fans and front office could remember HOW they won (outworking other teams with muscle and effort; stellar goalie), things would be more peaceful amongst the Flyers' fanbase.

Or not.
Shortly after that post I read about the nature of the ceremonies, and that's col.

I'm not sure if the rest of your post is in disagreement with mine, or not. I said in my post that the thing about the Bullies was that their physicality and hard work was matched by talent, and the best goalie we've ever had anchored them...and the other guys who manned the nets were pretty solid, too.

I've always been very vocal about how the modern perception of the Bullies is totally off-base, and built on the misconception that you can intimidate your way to championships...which a) isn't truly what the championships team did, and b) isn't really even possible anymore.

And don't even get me started on building from the net out.

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10-26-2010, 01:49 PM
  #539
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[QUOTE=sobrien;28542494]Just got back from Columbus (to Huntington, WV), got seats at the top of the arena for 10 bucks as a walk-up at 5pm. If i waited til 6, I could have gotten them in the lower bowl for $25 with my student I.D. It was a pretty nice arena, well set up, but as you could probably see on TV, empty. Plus i didn't hear an unkind word all game from an opposing fan...probably because 30-40% of the crowd was Flyers fans.
/QUOTE]

That is because not every arena feels the need to try and intimidate the opposing fans. We are there to have a good time, and I assume you were there to do the same. In Columbus we (the fans) don't try to ruin anybody's good night, we let the team do that for us (not a shot at Philly, CBJ ruins many game nights for me).

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10-26-2010, 01:55 PM
  #540
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
Shortly after that post I read about the nature of the ceremonies, and that's col.

I'm not sure if the rest of your post is in disagreement with mine, or not. I said in my post that the thing about the Bullies was that their physicality and hard work was matched by talent, and the best goalie we've ever had anchored them...and the other guys who manned the nets were pretty solid, too.

I've always been very vocal about how the modern perception of the Bullies is totally off-base, and built on the misconception that you can intimidate your way to championships...which a) isn't truly what the championships team did, and b) isn't really even possible anymore.

And don't even get me started on building from the net out.
Nah. I was replying to your post - not merely gainsaying yours; taking your points further with my own commentary. I guess we're in agreement, actually.

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10-26-2010, 02:06 PM
  #541
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
We have a team that is built to be great defensively at ES and thrive offensively on the PP. Obviously that isn't happening though there is no way that the PP stays this bad over the course of 82 games. But, at the very least, the team has to get back to the old strategy of not letting the other team score at ES and then capitalizing on PP chances.
If PP is not going Flyers are in trouble and this is how it's been for the most part in last 3-4 seasons.

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10-26-2010, 02:22 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
So many people seem to forget how close this team came to being blown up.
It is really unreal the approach this team seems to have. After coming so close you would think they would have done everything to come out like gangbusters. Guess they didnt learn any lessons from last season, which is scary.
This is the most bothersome trait of this team, not that they need a sense of urgency so early in the season, but getting out of the trend of losing 2,3,4. or 5 games in a row should have been high on the priority list for this team from the getgo.

People will say that they made it last season, etc....but bottom line was that the problem with this team during the regular season was the incosnistency and inability to play 60 minutes of hockey. It was blamed on Stevens at the time, he was fired, at this point it falls on the shoulders of the leaders and core group.

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10-26-2010, 02:48 PM
  #543
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
So many people seem to forget how close this team came to being blown up.

It is really unreal the approach this team seems to have. After coming so close you would think they would have done everything to come out like gangbusters. Guess they didnt learn any lessons from last season, which is scary.
The mix just isn't there, somehow.

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JXC I knew you were somewhere out there waiting for the right moment. Jones and Stevens still suck. Relax there bud.
I am totally chillaxed. I just had to step in because no one else is impugning the coach for lifeless, undisciplined, systemless performances.



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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
This team seriously seems to have a learning disability.
Same as last year, yep.

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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
People will say that they made it last season, etc....but bottom line was that the problem with this team during the regular season was the incosnistency and inability to play 60 minutes of hockey. It was blamed on Stevens at the time, he was fired, at this point it falls on the shoulders of the leaders and core group.
No way. It falls on Holmgren this time.

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10-26-2010, 03:45 PM
  #544
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Just got back from Columbus (to Huntington, WV), got seats at the top of the arena for 10 bucks as a walk-up at 5pm. If i waited til 6, I could have gotten them in the lower bowl for $25 with my student I.D. It was a pretty nice arena, well set up, but as you could probably see on TV, empty. Plus i didn't hear an unkind word all game from an opposing fan...probably because 30-40% of the crowd was Flyers fans.
Oh yeah, and I'm SURE Wachovia Center would be sold out every night if the Flyers only made the playoffs one year out of the past ten (and got swept then)... Get in whatever you can on us, though, if it makes you feel better.

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10-26-2010, 03:58 PM
  #545
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Oh yeah, and I'm SURE Wachovia Center would be sold out every night if the Flyers only made the playoffs one year out of the past ten (and got swept then)... Get in whatever you can on us, though, if it makes you feel better.
So, it's our fault that the team doesn't suck?

Also, check out the attendance figures or 06-07.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance/_/year/2007

The Flyers were total garbage. Did the fans go away? Nope.

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10-26-2010, 04:18 PM
  #546
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So, it's our fault that the team doesn't suck?

Also, check out the attendance figures or 06-07.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance/_/year/2007

The Flyers were total garbage. Did the fans go away? Nope.
One bad season to a long-established sports city and consistently successful 39 year-old franchise (at that time IIRC) is not nearly the same as a franchise that's only been around for a decade and has been a consistently crappy team for every year of that decade.

Kind of comparing apples and oranges there.

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10-26-2010, 04:33 PM
  #547
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
So...what you're saying is that no Pens fans know what they're talking about just because they're our rivals? And you know better then them despite not watching nearly enough of their games? Riiight, that's not arrogant at all.

Fact of the matter is that they have no legit top six wingers except for arguably Kunitz and their best winger thus far has been a rookie.

It's a well-established fact that Pittsburgh is a team that lives off of three centers and their goalie. If Fleury continues to be a sieve in goal or any of their top three centers go down then I can't see them being Cup contenders. Everywhere outside of their center depth their lineup is either bad or average so it makes sense that if any of those centers go down then they're in trouble.

I'm curious to see how that Staal converting to a top six wing thing is going to work out for them.

Oh, watching paint dry was almost as fun as watching the Flyers last night.
Your post credibility kinda went out the window on that one unless that's a typo.

Also, the Pens are COMPLETELY different than us as we have no one near a Crosby and no one really near a Malkin either.

Plus, I'm not talking necessarily about traditional top-6 guys we need.

I'm talking about quality 30-40 point guys who can play in your top-9 and not kill you.

We don't have a single guy like that, I mean, if you switched Upshall and Asham for Powe and Zherdev in our top-9, that's an exponential upgrade IMO.

But really, the argument of saying "well Pittsburgh doesn't have good wingers, so we don't need them" is just totally idiotic.

If any Flyers fan thinks Richards/Carter are anywhere near Crosby/Malkin, they need to have their heads examined.

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10-26-2010, 04:54 PM
  #548
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Your post credibility kinda went out the window on that one unless that's a typo.
What? Is it Staal that they're planning on centering the second line with Malkin going to wing? I can't remember whether Staal or Malkin will be centering the second line, but either way I'm curious to see how it will work out.

Quote:
Also, the Pens are COMPLETELY different than us as we have no one near a Crosby and no one really near a Malkin either.

Plus, I'm not talking necessarily about traditional top-6 guys we need.

I'm talking about quality 30-40 point guys who can play in your top-9 and not kill you.

We don't have a single guy like that, I mean, if you switched Upshall and Asham for Powe and Zherdev in our top-9, that's an exponential upgrade IMO.

But really, the argument of saying "well Pittsburgh doesn't have good wingers, so we don't need them" is just totally idiotic.

If any Flyers fan thinks Richards/Carter are anywhere near Crosby/Malkin, they need to have their heads examined.
I'm gonna have to apologize here because I didn't follow the original discussion well. I thought that you were arguing that Pittsburgh is clearly a contender and that they're clearly better then us. My bad.

You're right about the actual discussion though. Cooke, Kunitz, etc. are most definitely not 4th liners and although Pens fans do not like their play as top six wingers, most of them will agree with us that they're mostly more then capable bottom six guys.

I do have to disagree about Dupuis though. I'm on the fence as to whether or not he's even capable of 3rd line play.

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10-26-2010, 04:54 PM
  #549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug61 View Post
That is because not every arena feels the need to try and intimidate the opposing fans. We are there to have a good time, and I assume you were there to do the same. In Columbus we (the fans) don't try to ruin anybody's good night, we let the team do that for us (not a shot at Philly, CBJ ruins many game nights for me).
Outside of one experience, Columbus fans have been nothing but classy. Really respectful. Hell, one guy spoke with me objectively about both of the teams for an entire game.

Too bad they crush us every time we're in town.

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10-26-2010, 05:13 PM
  #550
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
What? Is it Staal that they're planning on centering the second line with Malkin going to wing? I can't remember whether Staal or Malkin will be centering the second line, but either way I'm curious to see how it will work out.
Staal will be centering the line, Malkin goes to wing, actually makes a lot of sense from a number of angles.

Quote:
I'm gonna have to apologize here because I didn't follow the original discussion well. I thought that you were arguing that Pittsburgh is clearly a contender and that they're clearly better then us. My bad.

You're right about the actual discussion though. Cooke, Kunitz, etc. are most definitely not 4th liners and although Pens fans do not like their play as top six wingers, most of them will agree with us that they're mostly more then capable bottom six guys.

I do have to disagree about Dupuis though. I'm on the fence as to whether or not he's even capable of 3rd line play.
I'm not necessarily saying Pitt is much better or worse than us (though I'm leaning towards better), my point is that recent teams that have won the Cup and gone deep in general have identified the value guys like Kunitz/Cooke/Kennedy who aren't top-6 guys in their own right, but can play with great players and not look out of place.

I like the analogy of the steak dinner here. Take the Giroux-Richie-Powe experiment.

Steak - Richards, it's a very solid steak, maybe even a filet mignon.

Sides - Giroux. Giroux may not be a steak in his own right yet, but he's a delicious helping of mashed potatoes and vegetables. Good in its own right and it complements the steak well.

Beverage - Powe. Powe is the water. To make a steak dinner very good, you need a nice glass of red wine or something along those lines. But Powe is water. Water isn't terrible in its own right, but when you put it with steak, it tends to kind of suck because each time you take a sip of it, you're like "damn, why can't this be wine?" It constantly holds the dinner back.

Upshall was the definition of a great red wine in this example, something that can make the steak dinner very special.

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