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Old
10-27-2010, 02:47 PM
  #26
Norm MacDonald
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Originally Posted by dbr2 View Post
Carter for Ryan?
I'd do it, but the Ducks have no reason to trade Ryan.

If the Flyers trade Carter mid-season, they won't be getting "fair" value back. They should just keep him.

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Old
10-27-2010, 02:48 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Mota View Post
Carter just doesnt really seem to have chemistry with our offense. Hes talented enough to still get his points, but seems out of place. Coincidence or not, but our offense was geling really well in the playoffs til he came back...then it became where do you put him?
Lets stop here.

After Carter came back they scored 3, 4, 5, 1, 3, 5, 4, and 3 goals. Or 3.50 goals a game. I'm going to go ahead and say our offense wasn't really a problem after he came back.

The man also scored 108 goals the last three seasons, and centered the team's best line in each of the last two years. He seems to fit in just fine if you ask me.

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10-27-2010, 02:48 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
Offensively Briere and Giroux are more well rounded.

Defensively Carter is better than both Giroux and Briere, but with that said, you're underrating Giroux's defensive ability. Giroux is a smart player who has good instincts, he wouldn't be on the PK if he wasn't a strong defensive player.

As a matter of fact, Giroux is taking Carters PK minutes. Bottom line, Claude Giroux is making Jeff Carter expendable.

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10-27-2010, 02:48 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Jeff Carter, square peg, meet round hole. Given the choice would you take Giroux or Carter? This is basically the situation.
Incorrect. Giroux is getting retained regardless.

The question is:

Leino + Zherdev + return for Carter

vs.

Carter

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10-27-2010, 02:49 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
When Carter (Pither) is scratched for Shelley (Klotz), you let me know.
Poor Cliff. If the coach had any balls Carter would have been scratched a game. Take the easy route and scratch your 4th line winger. That sends a message doesnt it Cliff? Maroon has more points than Carter maybe he can take his spot on the wing. Your a weasel. Klotz cant be possibly playing better than Pither can he? He cant be doing all the things the coaches have asked while pither has struggled, nah that cant possibly be a reason he was scratched.

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10-27-2010, 02:51 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
Trading Carter for this season doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because I doubt we're going to get a player who can equal his output and isn't signed long term. The only thing the Flyers really are in need of is a goaltender, and I would think it would be one who has an expiring deal or a deal that runs out next year. If they got a UFA goalie and a blue chip prospect I would be ok with it, but I don't think too many teams will make that deal. I really don't see an awful lot to gain with trading Carter at this point in the year.
I have used this before but just for sh8ts and giggles...would you trade Carter for Quick, Williams, and a 4th rd pick?

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10-27-2010, 02:52 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Incorrect. Giroux is getting retained regardless.

The question is:

Leino + Zherdev + return for Carter

vs.

Carter
This is exactly the scenario. Carter's demise will hinge on the performance of Leino and Zherdev over the course of the season. It will never be a Giroux or Carter discussion.

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Old
10-27-2010, 02:54 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I have used this before but just for sh8ts and giggles...would you trade Carter for Quick, Williams, and a 4th rd pick?
No, that isnt a good package imo at all.

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10-27-2010, 02:55 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I have used this before but just for sh8ts and giggles...would you trade Carter for Quick, Williams, and a 4th rd pick?
Would you trade Joe Thornton for Marco Sturm, Wayne Primeau and Brad Stuart?

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10-27-2010, 02:56 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
Offensively Briere and Giroux are more well rounded.

Defensively Carter is better than both Giroux and Briere, but with that said, you're underrating Giroux's defensive ability. Giroux is a smart player who has good instincts, he wouldn't be on the PK if he wasn't a strong defensive player.
The PK has nothing to do with even strength defensive play that a center is responsible for. The PK is about manning an area and reacting from there.

Giroux is weak defensively. Unlike Briere, Giroux competes defensively.

Calling Briere "well rounded" is a joke. The man barely tries defensively, and is good for at least one glorious F up every few games on the defensive side of the puck. He is an extremely gifted offensive player, and especially dangerous as a PP performer... but Carter is actually a better even strength player than Briere offensively.

The last two years Carter has posted 56, and 37 ES points.

Taking away the crazy years in Buffalo (sorry, those just aren't indicative of much for a variety of reasons), Briere's best ES years are 38, 33, 38, post-lockout insanity, 35, injured year we'll ignore, and 36.

The 36 should stand out in this list... because that's the year that Briere was supposedly "held back" by playing wing to Carter. The two years following the lockout were huge, but that was largely due to the specifics of that team... as well as how the league was officiated out of the gate. You add in his weakness defensively, and Briere isn't even close to Carter as an ES player.

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10-27-2010, 03:00 PM
  #36
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Giroux is fine on RW.

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10-27-2010, 03:03 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The PK has nothing to do with even strength defensive play that a center is responsible for. The PK is about manning an area and reacting from there.

Giroux is weak defensively. Unlike Briere, Giroux competes defensively.

Calling Briere "well rounded" is a joke. The man barely tries defensively, and is good for at least one glorious F up every few games on the defensive side of the puck. He is an extremely gifted offensive player, and especially dangerous as a PP performer... but Carter is actually a better even strength player than Briere offensively.

The last two years Carter has posted 56, and 37 ES points.

Taking away the crazy years in Buffalo (sorry, those just aren't indicative of much for a variety of reasons), Briere's best ES years are 38, 33, 38, post-lockout insanity, 35, injured year we'll ignore, and 36.

The 36 should stand out in this list... because that's the year that Briere was supposedly "held back" by playing wing to Carter. The two years following the lockout were huge, but that was largely due to the specifics of that team... as well as how the league was officiated out of the gate. You add in his weakness defensively, and Briere isn't even close to Carter as an ES player.
If Briere's best statistical season was a mirage, you could say the same thing about Carter's 46 goal season, no?

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10-27-2010, 03:04 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The PK has nothing to do with even strength defensive play that a center is responsible for. The PK is about manning an area and reacting from there.

Giroux is weak defensively. Unlike Briere, Giroux competes defensively.

Calling Briere "well rounded" is a joke. The man barely tries defensively, and is good for at least one glorious F up every few games on the defensive side of the puck. He is an extremely gifted offensive player, and especially dangerous as a PP performer... but Carter is actually a better even strength player than Briere offensively.

The last two years Carter has posted 56, and 37 ES points.

Taking away the crazy years in Buffalo (sorry, those just aren't indicative of much for a variety of reasons), Briere's best ES years are 38, 33, 38, post-lockout insanity, 35, injured year we'll ignore, and 36.

The 36 should stand out in this list... because that's the year that Briere was supposedly "held back" by playing wing to Carter. The two years following the lockout were huge, but that was largely due to the specifics of that team... as well as how the league was officiated out of the gate. You add in his weakness defensively, and Briere isn't even close to Carter as an ES player.
Now compare their playoff numbers.

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Old
10-27-2010, 03:05 PM
  #39
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I guess Lavy doesnt agree with Carter being our best center... considering he played RW again last night on the

Powe-Giroux-Carter

line

I think the whole "YOU NEED A BIG CENTER" thing is so overrated, and Carter's defensive skills are so overrated its funny. That being said, I would keep Carter, and try to resign him. If you cant, you let him go to FA where he will generate interest and we will be compensated.

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10-27-2010, 03:08 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Incorrect. Giroux is getting retained regardless.

The question is:

Leino + Zherdev + return for Carter

vs.

Carter
Giroux is going to get paid but what is the deal going to be? Do you give Carter the $6mill 7 year deal at the expense of Giroux who you retain only for 2 years and $3mill? Also Leino gets signed. Or do you sign Giroux for a 4-5 year deal at @$3.5mill at whcih time he is still a RFA and resign the 28 y/o Leino to a 3 year deal @$2.5mill? Plus, if you were to move Carter you would be getting something in return obviously, so it is not letting him go for nothing, you still are going to retain some type of value but that value may be a prospect and draft pick or it could be an expiring RW sho can score you 30 goals and a natural winger....either way it is a win-win by filling/addressing the needs.

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10-27-2010, 03:12 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Giroux is going to get paid but what is the deal going to be? Do you give Carter the $6mill 7 year deal at the expense of Giroux who you retain only for 2 years and $3mill? Also Leino gets signed. Or do you sign Giroux for a 4-5 year deal at @$3.5mill at whcih time he is still a RFA and resign the 28 y/o Leino to a 3 year deal @$2.5mill? Plus, if you were to move Carter you would be getting something in return obviously, so it is not letting him go for nothing, you still are going to retain some type of value but that value may be a prospect and draft pick or it could be an expiring RW sho can score you 30 goals and a natural winger....either way it is a win-win by filling/addressing the needs.
I'm expecting Carter and Giroux to combine for about $10m in cap space total. So something like $6.00m for Carter and $4.00m for Giroux.

I'm hoping Leino comes for $2.00m, but I'm not optimistic.

That's why I said it's:

Leino (3.00) + Zherdev (3.00) + return for Carter

vs.

Carter (6.00)


Remember also that trading Carle might be an option. That would free up another $3.44m. That could give us Leino.

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Old
10-27-2010, 03:12 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Jeff Carter, square peg, meet round hole. Given the choice would you take Giroux or Carter? This is basically the situation.
No, it's not.


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As far as Giroux, he played RW in Gatineau but if you followed him during his career there he actually also spent some time playing center, he is versatile, something Jeff Carter is not.
Which is completely irrelevant towards who is the better center... and the value of the player in the NHL.

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Giroux makes players around him better. Jeff Carter, well he makes Jeff Carter better.
Scott Hartnell, Lupul, and Briere (he had his best 'value' season as Flyer playing with Carter last year) disagree...

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Claude Giroux has taken twice as many facefoffs this season for a 49.5% rate, Jeff Carter has taken 51 faceoffs at a 54% rate.
Gotta tell you... I'm shocked that a guy that has played the majority of the games at center has taken more faceoffs than a guy that has played the majority of the games at wing.

SHOCKED.

Quote:
Claude Giroux has been given the offensive zone faceoffs over Carter by the coach, even though Jeff Carter is a superior centerman.
Not really so much concerned about the offensive zone draws... it's the defensive zone ones that are key. However, no idea if this claim is actually true as far as the choice being between the two.

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Can you not see where this is going? Just because a guy has talent and skills does not always make him the best choice to win a championship.
I can see some dodgy reasoning, that's for sure.

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Thus, given the choice if Homer can get value in return to get a natural winger to complement guys like Giroux who make players around them better then the TEAM is better off even if it means sacrificing a guy who statistically looks good.
Take Jeff Carter off the Flyers last year, and we miss the playoffs. Your boy, Giroux, was awful *ing silent prior to the playoffs... while Jeff Carter tore it up and carried the team in January.

Giroux had 8-13-21 and was -18 from January on last year.

Carter was 19-10-29 +3... while missing time with the foot.

Carter isn't just statistically good... he is good. His play in January last year was the only thing that kept the team afloat.

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Old
10-27-2010, 03:14 PM
  #43
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Trade the bum already

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Old
10-27-2010, 03:14 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Carter isn't just statistically good... he is good. His play in January last year was the only thing that kept the team afloat.
Agreed. Carter is worth the likely $6m that we'd pay for him, but is he worth more than Leino + Zherdev + the return we'd get for trading him? I'm not so sure.

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10-27-2010, 03:15 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I guess Lavy doesnt agree with Carter being our best center... considering he played RW again last night on the

Powe-Giroux-Carter

line

I think the whole "YOU NEED A BIG CENTER" thing is so overrated, and Carter's defensive skills are so overrated its funny. That being said, I would keep Carter, and try to resign him. If you cant, you let him go to FA where he will generate interest and we will be compensated.
I think Carter was still lined up at center and Giroux was playing wing. Carter also had his best game of the season, but I think some of the fluffing gets a bit extreme. Two assists were secondary passes, and the goal was what he should be doing, going to the crease area for rebounds, deflections, and screens.

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10-27-2010, 03:16 PM
  #46
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If Briere's best statistical season was a mirage, you could say the same thing about Carter's 46 goal season, no?
No, because if officiating went back to the way it was just after the lockout, Briere would go back to being a rock star again. The primary reason we're not seeing Buffalo Briere here is because the team hasn't been setup to play that way to an extent, but the larger issue is that the officiating has loosened up considerably and guys are getting away with a lot more interference than they were before... For Briere, at his size, that's a big deal. If he can exploit the crap out of you with his quickness, guys are going to get burned... but if they an bump/interfere with him, then he gets limited to an extent.

You can track this in the league-wide numbers, as well... it's just the way it is. It's not back to the pre-lockout crap, but it is somewhere in between.

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Old
10-27-2010, 03:17 PM
  #47
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I do not give giroux 4mm just yet. GM's need to start using their RFA status to their advantage. Go one year at a time until you have to lock him up long term. If it cost you a little more then so be it. No need to give these guys big ticket contracts just yet imo. Hopefully the next cba they go back ot the old free agency age and ruels or at least something close.

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10-27-2010, 03:18 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I think Carter was still lined up at center and Giroux was playing wing. Carter also had his best game of the season, but I think some of the fluffing gets a bit extreme. Two assists were secondary passes, and the goal was what he should be doing, going to the crease area for rebounds, deflections, and screens.
No he shouldn't. It nullifies his best asset. He should go there when the puck is in the area, but Carter is most effective just beyond the circles in space.

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10-27-2010, 03:19 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I think Carter was still lined up at center and Giroux was playing wing. Carter also had his best game of the season, but I think some of the fluffing gets a bit extreme. Two assists were secondary passes, and the goal was what he should be doing, going to the crease area for rebounds, deflections, and screens.
From what I saw it was the other way around. I remember a few times (before Giroux scored his faceoff goal) that Giroux was lineing up taking the faceoffs and working the middle while Carter was on the RW. I even posted it in the GDT. If Carter was our 2nd best center/faceoff guy, wouldnt he be taking the faceoff instead of Giroux?

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10-27-2010, 03:19 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Agreed. Carter is worth the likely $6m that we'd pay for him, but is he worth more than Leino + Zherdev + the return we'd get for trading him? I'm not so sure.
In your opinion he is worth 6mm.I dont pay him 6mm on a long term, no way. I dont have Zherdev back unless he really meshes with this team. Leino will get 2.5mm per

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