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Carter trade rumors heating up

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Old
10-28-2010, 11:28 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
from the looks of him, skeletor appears to be just another washed up goon who can barely skate, yet homer would overpay.
Homer is waiting for FA to grab him.

1.35 mil per year for 3 years.

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10-28-2010, 11:34 AM
  #152
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Who's Skeletor? That was always my nickname for referee Terry Gregson.



"He-Man lives and possesses that key. I must possess all, or I possess nothing."


wow thats scary haha

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10-28-2010, 12:01 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Also take into account that a lot of Carters point fluffing is not a point per game, it is like the other night where he score 50% of his point total in one game. Also, what games are these, blowouts or close games?
If Carter wasn't putting up a bunch of points in those games, they wouldn't be blowouts and a lot would even be losses.

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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
How insightful. I mean, for every instance where a team trades their best goal scorer and wins a cup, I think I can show you 30 instances where a team trades their best goalscorer and wins nothing.

The case of Ray Sheppard has nothing to do with the Philadelphia Flyers of 2010-2011.
Didn't you hear? The Cleveland Cavaliers are going to win six of the next eight NBA Championships!

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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Carter is a N-S player who cannot slow the play down, he gets his assists on the secondary assists such as the other night or by shooting the puck and actually hitting the net and getting a fwd who can follow up on the rebounds. Carters idea of an offense zone cycle.....rush up the wing with the puck, take a bad angle shot, watch the puck swing around the boards and an odd-man rush going the other way.

Giroux is a player who looks to set up the other players on the ice and slow the play down and creates space by his ability to pass the puck. He creates lanes because he finds the soft spots in the zone, looks to get the puck deep, and set up the offense.

He gets the puck to places where his teammates can score(see pass to Nodl), whereas Carter relies on his ability to shoot and get bounces to create scoring chances. Passing can be a detriment as well, because a passer can look too often to pass and not shoot. This would also be solved if Carter had a one-timer and could play the wing, thus complementing two-wtyle of play on one line.

It is pretty simple actually.
Yes, goals that result from such plays are actually worth less than the kind Giroux sets up.

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10-28-2010, 12:36 PM
  #154
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At this point, and unless Carter's agent holds out for the moon on a silver platter, I am against moving Carter short of the return filling multiple needs: top-6 goal-scoring winger (to offset losing Carter in the top 6), goaltender, very good-to-blue chip prospect, 1st/2nd round pick. Unfortunately, I have little confidence that our GM can pull off such a deal.

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10-28-2010, 12:42 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
At this point, and unless Carter's agent holds out for the moon on a silver platter, I am against moving Carter short of the return filling multiple needs: top-6 goal-scoring winger (to offset losing Carter in the top 6), goaltender, very good-to-blue chip prospect, 1st/2nd round pick. Unfortunately, I have little confidence that our GM can pull off such a deal.
Because he values Jeff as much as many Flyers fans do?

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10-28-2010, 12:48 PM
  #156
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That and he's dazzled by shiny objects and things that go 'boom'.

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10-28-2010, 12:50 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
Yes, goals that result from such plays are actually worth less than the kind Giroux sets up.
I like Giroux, and think he's going to have a great career in the NHL... but goal-scoring ability like what Carter has is a really hard to find commodity in the NHL, which people seem to overlook with amazing consistency.

On top of that, Giroux has yet to produce anywhere near the totals Carter has... so it's kind of remarkable that he's being held up as a definitively more productive offensive player.

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10-28-2010, 12:55 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
You leave out that Giroux 'creating space' and 'slowing the play down' is very much the old style of hockey that isn't as effective as it used to be. Slowing the play down in the new NHL also allows the defense to get back in position and allows the other teams forwards to get back and aid on D.

Carter does 2 things better then anyone else on the team. He isn't afraid to shoot because
- 100% of the shots you don't take, don't go in
- he has an awesome shot

Now, Carter is also the fastest skater on the team. While is sure doesn't look like it, he is always near the top in our team conditioning tests and routinely in the fastest skater competition. I believe his size makes him appear slower then he actually is, when you are at ice level, you realize just how much he flys.

I personally love having a Richards, Carter, and Giroux line because they all have their strengths and weaknesses, but they each do different things extremely well, with Carter's line being a line that utilizes the rush and rebounds, Giroux's line working on passing and one-timers, and Richards line focused on defense and good passing.

I want to keep these 3 players at all costs and have them all at Center. That might just be me though.
That is an honest, well thought out answer.

My belief of watching this team is besides the 46 goal season I have not seen anythign that shows me that Carter makes this team better. Statistically he may be able to score 30-30-60pts over the next couple seasons, but I do not think he fits with what the Flyers have currently as a roster.

I think this team could potentially be a better team without Jeff Carter. Now considering how well Danny Briere is playing at center is seems obvious he is the #1 choice to stay so now you have three guys to fill two spots. This is where having him almost becomes too much of a good thing. So of the three who do you keep at center and who plays out of position? (I know Giroux played significant minutes as a Junior at RW but in the NHL it looks like he is best suited for center).

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10-28-2010, 01:00 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
That is an honest, well thought out answer.

My belief of watching this team is besides the 46 goal season I have not seen anythign that shows me that Carter makes this team better. Statistically he may be able to score 30-30-60pts over the next couple seasons, but I do not think he fits with what the Flyers have currently as a roster.

I think this team could potentially be a better team without Jeff Carter. Now considering how well Danny Briere is playing at center is seems obvious he is the #1 choice to stay so now you have three guys to fill two spots. This is where having him almost becomes too much of a good thing. So of the three who do you keep at center and who plays out of position? (I know Giroux played significant minutes as a Junior at RW but in the NHL it looks like he is best suited for center).
Something you need to think about.

In 2 of his last 5 seasons, Briere has missed significant time with groin/hernia stuff. This is his 33 y/o NHL season... and the reality is that this is a young man's game. Briere will degrade in the coming years... that's just the reality of the situation. Carter has been a better player than Briere in each of the last two regular seasons... by a wide margin. Carter's defense kept Briere afloat last year, and made him a demonstrably more productive player despite a significant drop in Briere's PP production.

Trade Carter, and chances are you will regret it with a quickness... you also take one of the few guys on the team that can pop a goal at any given moment in the offensive zone.

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10-28-2010, 01:04 PM
  #160
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Briere being bad at wing is a myth. He and Carter played great together

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10-28-2010, 01:07 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Briere being bad at wing is a myth. He and Carter played great together
Just as the Giroux is bad at wing stuff is a myth. Players look better aesthetically at center simply because they're more involved in play moving forward... they get the puck more. This leads to a perception that they're somehow more productive... which is exactly what's going on with Briere last year. He was just as productive as he has been throughout his career playing on Carter's wing last year... his PP production was just way down from what he's put up at times in the past.

He had 37! PP points his first year with us. That was coming off 27, 28, and 30 PP point seasons in Buffalo. He had 17 last year.

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10-28-2010, 01:10 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Something you need to think about.

In 2 of his last 5 seasons, Briere has missed significant time with groin/hernia stuff. This is his 33 y/o NHL season... and the reality is that this is a young man's game. Briere will degrade in the coming years... that's just the reality of the situation. Carter has been a better player than Briere in each of the last two regular seasons... by a wide margin. Carter's defense kept Briere afloat last year, and made him a demonstrably more productive player despite a significant drop in Briere's PP production.

Trade Carter, and chances are you will regret it with a quickness... you also take one of the few guys on the team that can pop a goal at any given moment in the offensive zone.
I agree with this analysis but Homer has built this team to win today, not tomorrow. If you get a significant return for Carter, just say a scoring RW, you still have Richards and Giroux as your 1,2 centers, so now we are talking about filling a 3rd line center role, for $2.5mill that can be done pretty easily, not worried. Again, you are expecting to get a good return for Carter the "perrenial 40 goal scorer" who has the potential to be scoring 80pts a season for years to come, a franchise center. So this should get you a good scoring RW and a #1 draft pick, yes?

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10-28-2010, 01:10 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
That is an honest, well thought out answer.

My belief of watching this team is besides the 46 goal season I have not seen anythign that shows me that Carter makes this team better. Statistically he may be able to score 30-30-60pts over the next couple seasons, but I do not think he fits with what the Flyers have currently as a roster.

I think this team could potentially be a better team without Jeff Carter. Now considering how well Danny Briere is playing at center is seems obvious he is the #1 choice to stay so now you have three guys to fill two spots. This is where having him almost becomes too much of a good thing. So of the three who do you keep at center and who plays out of position? (I know Giroux played significant minutes as a Junior at RW but in the NHL it looks like he is best suited for center).
Well, in some ways I agree with you. Carter's random high and wide shots on the rush mean that Hartnell is best suited to play with him, and that anyone else who isn't worthless can play the other side. Carter carries his line mostly, probably more then Richards or Giroux would in the sense that Carter dominates possesion and doesnt need top talent to put up points.

While we could build a better TEAM perhaps by trading Carter, the salary cap has resigned me to the belief that having Carter locked up longterm at $6 is in a few ways an investment in his LINE as well as him. I am convinced Carter can produce with Carcillo and Powe on his wing, so having a player like Carter is nice in that he doesnt need top quality linemates to maximize his play quite as much as Richards or Giroux does.

Quality set-up men like Richie or Giroux require a certain type of player to play with them to maximize their point totals. Someone with a nose for the net and someone who can get off accurate one-timers, otherwise there passes are wasted.

This is why I have no problem rollings lines like this
JVR-Richards-Zherdev
Hartnell-Giroux-Briere
Leino-Carter-Powe

Giving Richards the crap linemates in many ways kills his ES production as his line essentially becomes a checking line. Carter's line is still an offensive threat as long it it's not Nodl and Powe with him.

Personally, I'd rather pull a Pittsburgh and find budget wingers (easy) then trade Carter and have more rift raft $2-3 mill players that will disappoint us.

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10-28-2010, 01:15 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I agree with this analysis but Homer has built this team to win today, not tomorrow. If you get a significant return for Carter, just say a scoring RW, you still have Richards and Giroux as your 1,2 centers, so now we are talking about filling a 3rd line center role, for $2.5mill that can be done pretty easily, not worried. Again, you are expecting to get a good return for Carter the "perrenial 40 goal scorer" who has the potential to be scoring 80pts a season for years to come, a franchise center. So this should get you a good scoring RW and a #1 draft pick, yes?
What makes you think Giroux can be the backbone of a no. 2 line on a SC contending team? And don't say the playoffs, there's a long history of guys that have produced epically in the playoffs. Right now his career high is 16-31-47, and he was a DISASTER in the second half of last season. He is not a good even strength defensive player at center... and gives away a ton of size and strength to a lot of the centers in the league.

BTW, no one has ever referred to Jeff Carter as a "perennial 40 goal scorer" so lets just nip yet another paper tiger argument put forward by you in the bud. Stop creating false arguments to make your irrational hate for Carter sound sensible. It's not.

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10-28-2010, 01:15 PM
  #165
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Briere being bad at wing is a myth. He and Carter played great together
And the earth is flat.

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10-28-2010, 01:16 PM
  #166
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And the earth is flat.
Make one rational and empirical argument that Carter and Briere were not an effective line together.

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10-28-2010, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
What makes you think Giroux can be the backbone of a no. 2 line on a SC contending team? And don't say the playoffs, there's a long history of guys that have produced epically in the playoffs. Right now his career high is 16-31-47, and he was a DISASTER in the second half of last season. He is not a good even strength defensive player at center... and gives away a ton of size and strength to a lot of the centers in the league.

BTW, no one has ever referred to Jeff Carter as a "perennial 40 goal scorer" so lets just nip yet another paper tiger argument put forward by you in the bud. Stop creating false arguments to make your irrational hate for Carter sound sensible. It's not.
Because of what I see from him on the ice on a night to night basis. The kid comes to play, can create from the center position unlike the wing where the wall takes away some of his space, and has taken over the PK/PP duties from Carter. Carter is a better faceoff guy and has his own tools which he excels at, but unless Carter is willing to move to wing it is redundant and not good team chemistry to keep him around. Just my .02 cents.

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10-28-2010, 01:27 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Because of what I see from him on the ice on a night to night basis. The kid comes to play, can create from the center position unlike the wing where the wall takes away some of his space, and has taken over the PK/PP duties from Carter. Carter is a better faceoff guy and has his own tools which he excels at, but unless Carter is willing to move to wing it is redundant and not good team chemistry to keep him around. Just my .02 cents.
Giroux has produced just fine from the wing position. Last year he would have been putting up really good numbers early on in the year if Gagne hadn't been chest sniping every chance Giroux created for him. From the RW position, moreover, he has the entire ice in front of his forehand...

However, he has yet to produce anything remotely resembling 2nd line center material over the course of a season yet... so if you trade away Carter, and Briere begins to breakdown, you're going to have a BIG problem with this team. Giroux, as of now, remains an unknown. Can he maintain a high point production pace over an 82 game schedule? Big question to gamble on if you're moving a guy that has been our best goal scorer the last couple of years (and, no, you're not going to get a player of Carter's caliber as far as goal scoring back).

Jeff Carter and Giroux have EQUAL PP time -- in fact, haven't they been running on the same unit? Giroux has taken over Gagne's PP time... and his PK time to an extent, as well as taking some minutes from Carter (a good thing, not a bad thing for Carter). Carter also plays more even strength minutes than Giroux.

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10-28-2010, 01:30 PM
  #169
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Giroux created fine at RW with Gagne and Richards, but Gagne was snake bitten as hell and could not finish.

Im also fine with Briere/Giroux being on Carter's wing but sometimes switching with him from time to time anyway. Im pretty sure Giroux and Carter both played some center last game

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10-28-2010, 01:35 PM
  #170
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Giroux created fine at RW with Gagne and Richards, but Gagne was snake bitten as hell and could not finish.

Im also fine with Briere/Giroux being on Carter's wing but sometimes switching with him from time to time anyway. Im pretty sure Giroux and Carter both played some center last game
I think people forget how much of a line killer Gagne was early in the year between injuries. It didn't help that Richards was forcing every damn pass to him... but when Giroux was on that line he was creating chances left and right and they weren't cashing 'em in.

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10-28-2010, 01:38 PM
  #171
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I think people forget how much of a line killer Gagne was early in the year between injuries. It didn't help that Richards was forcing every damn pass to him... but when Giroux was on that line he was creating chances left and right and they weren't cashing 'em in.
Absence makes the heart grow fonder.

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10-28-2010, 01:41 PM
  #172
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Absence makes the heart grow fonder.
Well, Gagne was an absolute stud later in the year when he got his legs under him. But he missed all of camp with that groin problem from the Olympic camp -- yay Olympics! -- and then got hurt and missed time and it just took him a while to get it all together last year.

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10-28-2010, 01:43 PM
  #173
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I think Giroux played his best hockey for the miniscule amount of games that JVR-Richards-Giroux were together. That line was awesome. I can't beleive it hasnt been tried again yet

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10-28-2010, 02:24 PM
  #174
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Well, Gagne was an absolute stud later in the year when he got his legs under him. But he missed all of camp with that groin problem from the Olympic camp -- yay Olympics! -- and then got hurt and missed time and it just took him a while to get it all together last year.
Oh, I know all that. It's just humorous, though, how players are scapegoats until they leave town and then they're missed.

As to the Olympics snipe, (I think) I am in agreement. Leave that to the college kids.

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10-28-2010, 02:28 PM
  #175
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I think Giroux played his best hockey for the miniscule amount of games that JVR-Richards-Giroux were together. That line was awesome. I can't beleive it hasnt been tried again yet
That line was nasty. What would the lineups look like if we roll with that as our 1 or 2 and assuming we keep Hartnell - Briere - Leino together? Best guess is probably...

Hartnell - Briere - Leino
JVR - Richie - Giroux
Powe/Carcillo/Nodl - Carter - Zherdev
Powe/Carcillo/Nodl - Betts - Shelley

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