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Old
10-28-2010, 02:53 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I think people forget how much of a line killer Gagne was early in the year between injuries. It didn't help that Richards was forcing every damn pass to him... but when Giroux was on that line he was creating chances left and right and they weren't cashing 'em in.
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Well, Gagne was an absolute stud later in the year when he got his legs under him. But he missed all of camp with that groin problem from the Olympic camp -- yay Olympics! -- and then got hurt and missed time and it just took him a while to get it all together last year.
We probably don't get past Boston without Gagne so I can forgive some early season problems.

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10-28-2010, 02:56 PM
  #177
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Giroux has produced just fine from the wing position. Last year he would have been putting up really good numbers early on in the year if Gagne hadn't been chest sniping every chance Giroux created for him. From the RW position, moreover, he has the entire ice in front of his forehand...

However, he has yet to produce anything remotely resembling 2nd line center material over the course of a season yet... so if you trade away Carter, and Briere begins to breakdown, you're going to have a BIG problem with this team. Giroux, as of now, remains an unknown. Can he maintain a high point production pace over an 82 game schedule? Big question to gamble on if you're moving a guy that has been our best goal scorer the last couple of years (and, no, you're not going to get a player of Carter's caliber as far as goal scoring back).

Jeff Carter and Giroux have EQUAL PP time -- in fact, haven't they been running on the same unit? Giroux has taken over Gagne's PP time... and his PK time to an extent, as well as taking some minutes from Carter (a good thing, not a bad thing for Carter). Carter also plays more even strength minutes than Giroux.
IN theory Carter should be a good wing, I am just really unsure why he cannot make the transition. He has size, can skate well N-S, and a good quick shot. You would think he could excel at a wing with a guy like Giroux who could find him gaining speed through center ice and hitting him with the feed to break down the defense, but it just does not seem so.

The greatest value in Giroux is that you are right, he can play wing and center, that is the greatest tool, being a utility guy with such skills. Watching him at center where he has more ice to break down the defense makes him more of a threat IMO. Bottom line is if Carter is on this team he needs to be a better all around player on this team and more consistent on a nightly bassis, his contribution is necessary for team success.

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10-28-2010, 03:00 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Giroux created fine at RW with Gagne and Richards, but Gagne was snake bitten as hell and could not finish.

Im also fine with Briere/Giroux being on Carter's wing but sometimes switching with him from time to time anyway. Im pretty sure Giroux and Carter both played some center last game
This is part of what really irks me about Carter.....Giroux and Briere can move to another position such as wing, both are smaller guys, and have the better tools to handle the puck in open ice over Carter. But yet those guys have to move because Carter "needs the puck on his stick" to be successful. This alone should be a good reason for fans to question Jeff Carter. Why can he be so unproductive at wing when guys 1/2 his size can still produce? Giroux and Carter did both play center, and as a matter of fact Giroux took faceoffs over Carter while both on the ice....

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10-28-2010, 03:25 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Giroux and Carter did both play center, and as a matter of fact Giroux took faceoffs over Carter while both on the ice....
It would only have been to give Giroux more experience at the dot then and grow that portion of his game. Over the last 3 seasons Carter has been the team's top % f/o man by 6-7% over anyone else and his number of draws have been on par with Richards and twice that of Giroux.

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10-28-2010, 03:25 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
This is part of what really irks me about Carter.....Giroux and Briere can move to another position such as wing, both are smaller guys, and have the better tools to handle the puck in open ice over Carter. But yet those guys have to move because Carter "needs the puck on his stick" to be successful. This alone should be a good reason for fans to question Jeff Carter. Why can he be so unproductive at wing when guys 1/2 his size can still produce? Giroux and Carter did both play center, and as a matter of fact Giroux took faceoffs over Carter while both on the ice....
Did Carter run over your dog or steal your girl or something? All I ever see you post is anti Carter this or that

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10-28-2010, 03:33 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by RoDu View Post
Did Carter run over your dog or steal your girl or something? All I ever see you post is anti Carter this or that
Did not know that Cartsie was above criticism, sorry, take back out your Winter Classic #17 jersey and wear it proud. IMO Carter is the dog on this team, and has been, period.

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10-28-2010, 03:35 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by lumm0x View Post
It would only have been to give Giroux more experience at the dot then and grow that portion of his game. Over the last 3 seasons Carter has been the team's top % f/o man by 6-7% over anyone else and his number of draws have been on par with Richards and twice that of Giroux.
Yes, but the coach is putting him in to take important offensive zone faceoffs so maybe the coach thinks he can get more out of Giroux than Carter?? Carter has only 51 faceoffs, Giroux with 101.

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10-28-2010, 03:35 PM
  #183
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So the highest scoring player over the past few years is the dog of our team?

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10-28-2010, 03:36 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
IN theory Carter should be a good wing, I am just really unsure why he cannot make the transition. He has size, can skate well N-S, and a good quick shot. You would think he could excel at a wing with a guy like Giroux who could find him gaining speed through center ice and hitting him with the feed to break down the defense, but it just does not seem so.
If they want Carter to have scoring success at wing, they need to put him at LW so that his forehand/wrister is facing the net/open ice and he can skate left-to-right as opposed to right-to-left. By putting him on the wall you're giving him nowhere to go with the ability to shoot the puck, thus nullifying his major skill. He's not a distributor, so having the passing lanes on his forehand (RW) isn't beneficial to him in anyway (whereas it is beneficial to Giroux), and given Carter's style you're essentially putting him in a box. Even as a center, Carter goes to the right boards too often.

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The greatest value in Giroux is that you are right, he can play wing and center, that is the greatest tool, being a utility guy with such skills. Watching him at center where he has more ice to break down the defense makes him more of a threat IMO. Bottom line is if Carter is on this team he needs to be a better all around player on this team and more consistent on a nightly bassis, his contribution is necessary for team success.
There is a GREAT deal of irony to you complaining about Carter as an "all around player" while praising Giroux and Briere... Carter is a better "all around" player than either of 'em. He has also outscored each of 'em by a WIDE margin the last couple of years.

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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
This is part of what really irks me about Carter.....Giroux and Briere can move to another position such as wing, both are smaller guys, and have the better tools to handle the puck in open ice over Carter. But yet those guys have to move because Carter "needs the puck on his stick" to be successful. This alone should be a good reason for fans to question Jeff Carter. Why can he be so unproductive at wing when guys 1/2 his size can still produce? Giroux and Carter did both play center, and as a matter of fact Giroux took faceoffs over Carter while both on the ice....
Well, Carter was taking defensive zone draws... ya know, the ones that area really key.

As to the wider point... talk about a complete red herring. Jeff Carter is a really effective center and you're complaining that he isn't as effective elsewhere? I mean, seriously?

As to the question your asking... you should look at my comments above about Carter and RW. His game is not suited to him being along the right wall.

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10-28-2010, 03:37 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Yes, but the coach is putting him in to take important offensive zone faceoffs so maybe the coach thinks he can get more out of Giroux than Carter?? Carter has only 51 faceoffs, Giroux with 101.
Carter was over 50% last year and this year with 1300+ draws last season. Giroux had 600 last season at around 47-48% and he is still at that this year. He's getting draws to get reps and grow in that capacity, not because he is better at it.

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10-28-2010, 03:38 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Yes, but the coach is putting him in to take important offensive zone faceoffs so maybe the coach thinks he can get more out of Giroux than Carter?? Carter has only 51 faceoffs, Giroux with 101.
Stop using that stat like it means something. A guy who has been playing center SHOULD have a lot more faceoffs than a guy that's been playing wing.

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10-28-2010, 03:39 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Did not know that Cartsie was above criticism, sorry, take back out your Winter Classic #17 jersey and wear it proud. IMO Carter is the dog on this team, and has been, period.
Did you know you're full of **** every time you say this?

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10-28-2010, 03:46 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by lumm0x View Post
It would only have been to give Giroux more experience at the dot then and grow that portion of his game. Over the last 3 seasons Carter has been the team's top % f/o man by 6-7% over anyone else and his number of draws have been on par with Richards and twice that of Giroux.
Huh?

2007-2008:
Dowd: 53.8%
Richards: 50.5%
Briere: 50.5%
Carter: 47.7%

2008-2009:
Metro: 50.2%
Richards: 49.0%
Powe: 48.7%
Carter: 48.3%
Giroux: 47.2%
Briere:46.4%

2009-2010

Carter: 52.4%
Betts: 50.9%
Richards: 50.7%
Giroux: 49.5%
Briere: 44.2%


Other then last season, Carter hasnt blown everyone out of the water.

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Old
10-28-2010, 04:03 PM
  #189
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I really hope we can pull a MASSIVE steal if we trade Carter, like a top line player 1st and a top prospect. would make me immensely happy.

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10-28-2010, 04:05 PM
  #190
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We should get Patrick Kane for him. That would be the best (most unreasonable) trade ever.

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10-28-2010, 04:35 PM
  #191
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We should get Patrick Kane for him. That would be the best (most unreasonable) trade ever.
What about JVR for Kane?

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Old
10-28-2010, 04:43 PM
  #192
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The reason everyone is giving on why we should keep Carter is because he is an elite Goal Scorer. But thats cause he shoots so damn much. His shot percentage is not great when compared to other centers in the league (Toews, Malkin, Crosby, Thorton)

When you combine this with the fact that he is not a play-maker, and does not make his line-mates better he is the easy choice when it comes trade time.

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10-28-2010, 04:49 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
If you can move Carter and get something of value to fill a need(natural scoring winger for example, or legit starting goalie) you make the move and get it done. As it is Giroux is higher in the pecking order to get resigned, and Leino is also getting strong consideration.

All things considered all of Giroux, Richards, and Briere are more well rounded and better at center than what Carter has shown, AND they each show up in the playoffs.

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10-28-2010, 04:55 PM
  #194
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The reason everyone is giving on why we should keep Carter is because he is an elite Goal Scorer. But thats cause he shoots so damn much. His shot percentage is not great when compared to other centers in the league (Toews, Malkin, Crosby, Thorton)

When you combine this with the fact that he is not a play-maker, and does not make his line-mates better he is the easy choice when it comes trade time.
OK, I think you should dwell on the fact that you're comparing him to Thornton, Crosby, and Malkin (and Malkin can barely be considered a center at this point). How many players in this league stack up to those guys?

Toews' career high is 34 goals, and his highest point total is 69...

And enough with the *ing linemates BS. Jeff Carter centered our two best lines the last two years, and Hartnell and Lupul were absolute studs with him centering them.

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10-28-2010, 04:58 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
The reason everyone is giving on why we should keep Carter is because he is an elite Goal Scorer. But thats cause he shoots so damn much. His shot percentage is not great when compared to other centers in the league (Toews, Malkin, Crosby, Thorton)

When you combine this with the fact that he is not a play-maker, and does not make his line-mates better he is the easy choice when it comes trade time.
my biggest concern with J Carter is that although he shoots a boat load, its typically always from similar areas on the ice with the same delivery. Crosby in particular was never an elite goal scorer, in fact up until last year you could make a legitimate argument that over the course of their respective careers, Carter would out pace Crosby in the goal scoring department. So what did Crosby do? he went out on the off season and developed hit shot, changed curves, and dedicated himself to scoring more, and he pots 51 goals the next season. Now I know Crosby is in another class when it comes to hockey players, but for gods sake would it kill Jeff Carter to adapt a slap shot or a one timer? I mean seriously he could put up Stamkos like numbers on this team if he moulded his game in a similar fashion.

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10-28-2010, 05:00 PM
  #196
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my biggest concern with J Carter is that although he shoots a boat load, its typically always from similar areas on the ice with the same delivery. Crosby in particular was never an elite goal scorer, in fact up until last year you could make a legitimate argument that over the course of their respective careers, Carter would out pace Crosby in the goal scoring department. So what did Crosby do? he went out on the off season and developed hit shot, changed curves, and dedicated himself to scoring more, and he pots 51 goals the next season. Now I know Crosby is in another class when it comes to hockey players, but for gods sake would it kill Jeff Carter to adapt a slap shot or a one timer? I mean seriously he could put up Stamkos like numbers on this team if he moulded his game in a similar fashion.
You can't be what you are not... the biggest thing holding Carter back is he isn't much of a dangler (it has nothing to do with developing a slapper). He doesn't have the one-on-one undress a guy game, which Crosby and some of these other guys have (similar to Gagne, in that respect).

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10-28-2010, 05:06 PM
  #197
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OK, I think you should dwell on the fact that you're comparing him to Thornton, Crosby, and Malkin (and Malkin can barely be considered a center at this point). How many players in this league stack up to those guys?

Toews' career high is 34 goals, and his highest point total is 69...

And enough with the *ing linemates BS. Jeff Carter centered our two best lines the last two years, and Hartnell and Lupul were absolute studs with him centering them.
True he did make Hartnell and Lupul look like studs, Ill give you that. But so far in the season, he has really struggled to make an impact in Zherdev's game or JVR's game.

Im not comparing him to the top centers, im comparing his shooting percentage. ANd toews was had a 17.9 percent shooting percentage the year he had 34 goals. That dwarfs Carter's career high

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10-28-2010, 05:10 PM
  #198
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You can't be what you are not... the biggest thing holding Carter back is he isn't much of a dangler (it has nothing to do with developing a slapper). He doesn't have the one-on-one undress a guy game, which Crosby and some of these other guys have (similar to Gagne, in that respect).
Having some 1 on 1 moves would help him a great deal i'd agree off the rush, he shocked the hell out of me his first game back i think it was against MTL last playoffs, on maybe his first shift - did one deke at the red line and was in on Halak, but i also really think having a slap shot as well would help not only him, but his line mates feeding him the puck making him more of a threat in my opinion from across the offensive zone. He has a very quick release when the puck has been on his stick and he's moving, but his release off of receiving a pass is frustrating to watch at times.
He has a good sense of moving through the offensive zone to find holes with the puck on his stick but i'd love to see what kind of torque he could get out of that big frame and stick he uses in a slap shot as well when sitting in holes of another teams defense *shrugs*.

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10-28-2010, 05:11 PM
  #199
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My biggest concern about Jeff Carter is that..well he's Jeff Carter. Great he scored 40 goals once, but he's just not a big game player and a guy who is reliable. He's not a one trick pony and he does more than score goals, but when we need a big push in a big way Jeff Carter seems the last guy to come through. He's like our Ryan Howard. Great when he's scoring the goals, but frustrating a good bit of the time and when you need that clutch moment you have to look 19 other directions. This may not be relevant to the current Carter discussion, but I digress.

If we could get a Jonathan Bernier or a top line goal scoring winger in return I would be thrilled. Just thinking of the potential return makes me grin. However, Rocky Dennis is still calling the shots and I DO NOT trust that fool with that kind of trade chip. Homer simply can't be trusted.

So I guess keep him for now.

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10-28-2010, 05:42 PM
  #200
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Having some 1 on 1 moves would help him a great deal i'd agree off the rush, he shocked the hell out of me his first game back i think it was against MTL last playoffs, on maybe his first shift - did one deke at the red line and was in on Halak, but i also really think having a slap shot as well would help not only him, but his line mates feeding him the puck making him more of a threat in my opinion from across the offensive zone. He has a very quick release when the puck has been on his stick and he's moving, but his release off of receiving a pass is frustrating to watch at times.
He has a good sense of moving through the offensive zone to find holes with the puck on his stick but i'd love to see what kind of torque he could get out of that big frame and stick he uses in a slap shot as well when sitting in holes of another teams defense *shrugs*.
Look around the league... how many forwards do you see unleashing slappers? A handful of guys have very good one-timers, but I STRESS a handful. Everyone has gone to the snap/wrist shot...

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