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Old
10-31-2010, 02:57 PM
  #951
Jester
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Again though, look at SJ, they've been a good team for the better part of the last decade and apparently still have problems breaking even.

Look at Anaheim, won the Cup in 06-07, made the WCF in 08-09, in contention for a PO spot for most of 09-10, 20th in the league in attendance last year and by all accounts, a complete afterthought in southern California (I knew a couple people from SC in college).

No doubt that the competitive record for most of these teams isn't great, but Anaheim and SJ have both had 5 year runs that about 24 NHL teams would kill for and neither one of them is a big draw yet or anywhere close to a marquee franchise.

So I mean, if you're telling me it's going to take 10 years of sustained success for these franchises to make an impact, I say, ship them to Canada or get rid of them.
A kid that has spent his entire life with the San Jose Sharks existing, is only, what, 18 today? That's not a season ticket holder. Unfortunately, you need to give these markets like 30 years to really judge 'em... which is why the overcharged expansion policy of the NHL beginning in the early 1990s was absolutely asinine.

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Old
10-31-2010, 03:18 PM
  #952
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
A kid that has spent his entire life with the San Jose Sharks existing, is only, what, 18 today? That's not a season ticket holder. Unfortunately, you need to give these markets like 30 years to really judge 'em... which is why the overcharged expansion policy of the NHL beginning in the early 1990s was absolutely asinine.
Yeah, when people complain about attendance problems it seems like someone complaining about a long-term plan by using short-term results. Just doesn't seem right.

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10-31-2010, 03:32 PM
  #953
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I'm not investing any money/emotional interest in a team that could be gone next year. And that was an issue last year as well.
How many times has Bettman said the Yotes arent moving. I will believe it when I see it. The last thing Bettman wants is to have one of his pet southern teams move.

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10-31-2010, 03:39 PM
  #954
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How many times has Bettman said the Yotes arent moving. I will believe it when I see it. The last thing Bettman wants is to have one of his pet southern teams move.
How many serious owners have stepped up and said they want to keep the team there? You also had an almost hostile takeover that would have led to the team moving.

Whole thing is a mess, and there will come a point where Bettman will not be able to muster the support amongst the owners to keep financing that problem.

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10-31-2010, 03:51 PM
  #955
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How many serious owners have stepped up and said they want to keep the team there? You also had an almost hostile takeover that would have led to the team moving.

Whole thing is a mess, and there will come a point where Bettman will not be able to muster the support amongst the owners to keep financing that problem.
Many of the so called experts thought that once Phoenix became a competitve team that the fans would show up. well not only are they competitve but they are arguably one of the top 3 or 4 teams in the west and they cant even draw 10k. I know its not just Phoenix.
What is the situation in Winnipeg? There those rumors. are they building a new arena up there?

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10-31-2010, 03:57 PM
  #956
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Many of the so called experts thought that once Phoenix became a competitve team that the fans would show up. well not only are they competitve but they are arguably one of the top 3 or 4 teams in the west and they cant even draw 10k. I know its not just Phoenix.
What is the situation in Winnipeg? There those rumors. are they building a new arena up there?
I think the arena in Winnipeg is already built... though it may need some cosmetic changes.

I just don't think attendance in PHX, given the situation, has any chance to be good (short of maybe come playoff time). Given the scenario, I cannot imagine too many folks are/were interested in season tickets, so you're basically just relying on single game tickets and that will be problematic from day to day.

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10-31-2010, 04:08 PM
  #957
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Yeah, being unsure of the team's future must really hurt the season ticket sales, Phoenix has a reputation for being a bad sports town in general (similar to Atlanta), the arena is in a bad location with a horrible lease, and then there's this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...oyotes_seasons

The first four years of their franchise they never got more then 90 points and lost in the first round each year. After that, in the nine NHL seasons that followed, they've only made the playoffs twice and lost in the first round each time. They've never won the division and last year was the first year that they had a 100 point season and also the first year in the last six or seven seasons that they made the playoffs.

Answer this honestly, do you really expect any new fan-base (meaning, with no hockey roots in place) to have a strong fan-base with all of that going against it? This is even forgetting their arena, relocation, and Wayne Gretzky issues.

People really don't seem to have any patience at all when it comes to Phoenix and other new markets. This is a long-term plan to instill hockey roots where there were previously none. That takes a long ****ing time. Like Jester said, anyone who was born when the Sharks started would be 18 now. It's going to take a while for that fan-base to build up.

It just boggles my mind that people don't see to get all of that.

As soon as attendance issues are spotted people scream "move them to Canada". Good thing we didn't end up doing that with Pittsburgh or Chicago though.

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10-31-2010, 04:34 PM
  #958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
A kid that has spent his entire life with the San Jose Sharks existing, is only, what, 18 today? That's not a season ticket holder. Unfortunately, you need to give these markets like 30 years to really judge 'em... which is why the overcharged expansion policy of the NHL beginning in the early 1990s was absolutely asinine.
Well, that's one of the big things we've all felt for quite a while.

But right now, it is what it is and rather than have the Coyotes lose 30 mill a year for the next 20 years until they can break even (potentially), I'd contract them or move them.

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10-31-2010, 04:51 PM
  #959
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Well, that's one of the big things we've all felt for quite a while.

But right now, it is what it is and rather than have the Coyotes lose 30 mill a year for the next 20 years until they can break even (potentially), I'd contract them or move them.
Well, they should move them because it's better for the league overall... and that entire situation down there is a complete mess. They're not going to find a solid offer for that team with any interest in keeping the team there (far more valuable elsewhere). They should also move 'em because they should only be propping up a couple "developing" franchises at any one time.

However, I'm not sure that the mess in PHX or any of these other new locations is indicative that it cannot work in place X. NHL is doing quite well in Dallas, for example... far from a traditional market. The reality is that it's difficult for expansion teams once a league is really established, and they have to compete with teams that have steady fanbases and good cash flows. That forces teams (like SJ, for example) to spend beyond what they can really afford and still turn a profit in order to be competitive... part of why the CBA is so important, is to help that whole situation out. It won't be overnight, though.

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10-31-2010, 05:08 PM
  #960
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lol. NHL.com currently has a video on the front page where Roenick skated out on halloween dressed up as Bobby Clarke. Never saw that before and it's hilarious.

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Old
10-31-2010, 05:35 PM
  #961
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, they should move them because it's better for the league overall... and that entire situation down there is a complete mess. They're not going to find a solid offer for that team with any interest in keeping the team there (far more valuable elsewhere). They should also move 'em because they should only be propping up a couple "developing" franchises at any one time.

However, I'm not sure that the mess in PHX or any of these other new locations is indicative that it cannot work in place X. NHL is doing quite well in Dallas, for example... far from a traditional market. The reality is that it's difficult for expansion teams once a league is really established, and they have to compete with teams that have steady fanbases and good cash flows. That forces teams (like SJ, for example) to spend beyond what they can really afford and still turn a profit in order to be competitive... part of why the CBA is so important, is to help that whole situation out. It won't be overnight, though.
I agree with everything you've said on the issue.

Good point about how only a few developing franchises should be out there at any one time though. That makes sense, and for that reason (meaning not for the retarded reasons that most people have), I'd be fine with moving them to another place.

What other place could you move it to though that wouldn't be a developing franchise? Nowhere in the United States really.

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10-31-2010, 06:29 PM
  #962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, they should move them because it's better for the league overall... and that entire situation down there is a complete mess. They're not going to find a solid offer for that team with any interest in keeping the team there (far more valuable elsewhere). They should also move 'em because they should only be propping up a couple "developing" franchises at any one time.

However, I'm not sure that the mess in PHX or any of these other new locations is indicative that it cannot work in place X. NHL is doing quite well in Dallas, for example... far from a traditional market. The reality is that it's difficult for expansion teams once a league is really established, and they have to compete with teams that have steady fanbases and good cash flows. That forces teams (like SJ, for example) to spend beyond what they can really afford and still turn a profit in order to be competitive... part of why the CBA is so important, is to help that whole situation out. It won't be overnight, though.
Eh, I simply don't buy that much of it. I mean, how many NHL teams were there in Northern California before the Sharks got there? And I doubt Northern California somehow had this massive cadre of previous NHL fans who refused to go to Sharks games because the Sharks weren't their favorite team.

I mean, even Le Batard admits this, beyond football, people in Florida are bandwagon and I think that extends to California. I mean, it's interesting to me that before the Heat's big 3, the Heat played to half-full houses even though they had one of the NBA's most exciting and dynamic players, were consistently a PO team, and won a championship in 2006. So why would that dynamic change for hockey which if anything, is an even more foreign sport down there.

Also, with Dallas, you are essentially operating on an "exception proves the rule" principle despite a couple of very good counterexamples.

Sure, maybe they got lucky in Dallas, doesn't change the fact that SJ and Anaheim have both been failures despite some solid, competitive success.

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Old
10-31-2010, 08:59 PM
  #963
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Eh, I simply don't buy that much of it. I mean, how many NHL teams were there in Northern California before the Sharks got there? And I doubt Northern California somehow had this massive cadre of previous NHL fans who refused to go to Sharks games because the Sharks weren't their favorite team.
Well, there are a TON of transplants working in the tech industry... so I'm sure there is some of that. However, you're ignoring the larger point... there isn't the homegrown fanbase there (well, there is, but it isn't an affluent demographic yet). You need to develop that over time... so you have people in their late 20s and 30s who are starting to make a bit of money (God I wish I was there...) and think to themselves, "I got some disposable coin, lets get season tickets."

Of course, picking on SJ is the wrong tree... they're doing fine. Sure, they're not rolling in the coin, but they're also spending to the cap and not going under. When you got teams like Nashville, PHX, etc. out there... SJ is a success story. So is Anaheim in the face of TB, FLA, etc.

Quote:
I mean, even Le Batard admits this, beyond football, people in Florida are bandwagon and I think that extends to California. I mean, it's interesting to me that before the Heat's big 3, the Heat played to half-full houses even though they had one of the NBA's most exciting and dynamic players, were consistently a PO team, and won a championship in 2006. So why would that dynamic change for hockey which if anything, is an even more foreign sport down there.
I mean, pretty much every sport is going to struggle in FLA outside of football. That's just reality... and even then, you're competing with NCAA football past the NFL.

Quote:
Also, with Dallas, you are essentially operating on an "exception proves the rule" principle despite a couple of very good counterexamples.

Sure, maybe they got lucky in Dallas, doesn't change the fact that SJ and Anaheim have both been failures despite some solid, competitive success.
But that's just it, and why I brought up the fact that there are a lot of Cali kids playing hockey these days. They're quite similar, IMO. Dallas has just had more consistent success which has given that organization more momentum (it helps that they were an established team as opposed to an expansion team).

Sharks played to 100.4%, 100.0%, 99.5%, and 99.6% the last 4 years... you really want to label that a "failure"?

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11-01-2010, 08:43 AM
  #964
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http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=339122

Quote:
The Buffalo Sabres received some bad news Friday as the Buffalo News is reporting that forward Jason Pominville failed his neuro-psych test as he attempted to make his return to the Sabres lineup from a concussion.

Pominville had been practicing with the team all week while feeling no ill effects from a concussion he suffered when he was slammed into the boards by Chicago Blackhawks' defenceman Niklas Hjalmarsson on October 11th. He had hoped to be back in the Sabres lineup in time for Friday's game against the Atlanta Thrashers however the Buffalo News is reporting that the team has sent him back to Buffalo to be re-examined by doctors.
That sucks. I've always like Pominville, as much as I hate the Sabres.

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11-01-2010, 10:02 AM
  #965
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
NHL is doing quite well in Dallas, for example... far from a traditional market. The reality is that it's difficult for expansion teams once a league is really established, and they have to compete with teams that have steady fanbases and good cash flows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post

Also, with Dallas, you are essentially operating on an "exception proves the rule" principle despite a couple of very good counterexamples.

Sure, maybe they got lucky in Dallas, doesn't change the fact that SJ and Anaheim have both been failures despite some solid, competitive success.
I've always had a soft spot for dallas dating back to my childhood, even though i grew up a Flyers fan first and foremost. I think having a player in Modano as the franchises center piece for well over a decade does so, so much for a franchise. I'm sure they had some initial support as well from the N. Stars fans perhaps being attached in some ways to the team, but I don't think you can really discredit how valuable Mike Modano was to keeping that team in relative importance in Dallas. It was kind of the perfect storm really when you look at it, one of the best American born hockey players ever to play the game in Dallas Texas. Growing up and still learning the game I would have been hard pressed to locate the difference between Dallas and Houston on a map, but I loved Modano and his skating style, was simply fun to watch.
It's always hard to pin point which fans in which area will accept a sport's franchise though. If simply giving a sport "time" was an indicator or success Soccer would be doing well in the USA by now as well... Some areas, if you want to believe it or not IMO, simply do not have the taste for Ice Hockey, and that's not exactly a problem either, its that the NHL brass insists on making them want to like Ice Hockey, seems silly to me.

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11-01-2010, 10:27 AM
  #966
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Should I start Lundy vs Chicago tonight?

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11-01-2010, 12:18 PM
  #967
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Should I start Lundy vs Chicago tonight?
tough call. Hawks can score, the Rangers havent been winning at home. I would start him. You have all week to recover if he faulters.

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11-01-2010, 02:22 PM
  #968
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Jon Sim was waived today.

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11-01-2010, 03:29 PM
  #969
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=339122



That sucks. I've always like Pominville, as much as I hate the Sabres.
Is it just me, or is Hjalmarsson developing a bit of a reputation for big hits? I'm asking seriously.

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11-01-2010, 03:29 PM
  #970
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Jordan Staal injured his hand in practice today and is now expected to be out for up to six more weeks; the plan was for him to make his season debut Wednesday.

Bad luck for Staal.

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11-01-2010, 03:43 PM
  #971
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yeah that sucks for Staal

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11-01-2010, 03:54 PM
  #972
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I am starting Bob this week ( 4 Flyer games) vs Miller ( 3 games )

Am i crazy ??? Sabres have been awful and no fantasy points for Miller. You guys think Bob can start 3 of 4 this week ?

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11-01-2010, 03:57 PM
  #973
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Jordan Staal injured his hand in practice today and is now expected to be out for up to six more weeks; the plan was for him to make his season debut Wednesday.

Bad luck for Staal.
Wow. Good thing I didn't take him in fantasy.

Sucks for Staal, but as far as the Flyers go this is really good news. The Pens are a far, far weaker team with any one of their big three out of the lineup.

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11-01-2010, 04:04 PM
  #974
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I hate week to week pools, can you only start one of them? do you have another goalie?

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11-01-2010, 04:09 PM
  #975
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I hate week to week pools, can you only start one of them? do you have another goalie?
For real, weekly leagues are lame.

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