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#12: Hurricanes @ Flyers - Monday, Nov. 1, 2010 - 7:00 PM (ET)

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Old
11-01-2010, 09:22 PM
  #576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The argument you just made is dumb, and let me show you why.

There's a big difference between a guy that can crank missiles from all over the ice (there is no defense for this play, and it's why Carter will always get his as well), and a guy that is toasting goalies one-on-one. A defense can deny odd-man rushes... it cannot effectively nullify a shot that can flat beat a goalie from range.
Out of Giroux's 7 goals, 3 are breakaways...

He has 3 SH, 3 PP, and 1 ES

You get rid of his 3 breakaways, he still has 4 goals.

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11-01-2010, 09:23 PM
  #577
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Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
Listen, I'm the biggest Giroux fanboy out there, but I'll be beyond shocked if he ever scores 46 goals. While he can certainly put the puck in the net, Claude's game is passing and creating. Besides, as Jester and FlyHigh have alluded to, he's shooting at a 30% clip right now, which is both ridiculous and unsustainable. I don't think it's impossible for Claude to break 40 goals, but I'd be lying if I said that wouldn't exceed my expectations when it comes to his goal scoring ability.

Realistically, I expect Claude to be a 30-35G/50-55A player.
Maybe so..but again he's producing in all situations. Is it sustainable I guess we shall see. What I think is more the barrier is injury....but then if that happens I want all the people who use the math to say that players like Carter would have scored so and so if he hadn't been injured to apply it to Giroux. If he got injured tonight....I would apply that logic and see how that would hold up....

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11-01-2010, 09:25 PM
  #578
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I am not saying he is an all star player.
I'm saying it.

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11-01-2010, 09:25 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
A defense can deny odd-man rushes... it cannot effectively nullify a shot that can flat beat a goalie from range.
Sure if it doesn't go high and wide and hit the breadbasket.....that's nullifying yourself in that instance

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11-01-2010, 09:27 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
He makes filthy *ing moves when he gets in on breakaways.

Breakaways are the product of other people messing up...
And just about any positive play for Team A is a product of Team B messing up... what's your point. Give the kid credit where credit is due chief, he's been playing awesome hockey since last April and people on this forum, and media have been expecting him to break out. What gives?

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11-01-2010, 09:28 PM
  #581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The argument you just made is dumb, and let me show you why.

There's a big difference between a guy that can crank missiles from all over the ice (there is no defense for this play, and it's why Carter will always get his as well), and a guy that is toasting goalies one-on-one. A defense can deny odd-man rushes... it cannot effectively nullify a shot that can flat beat a goalie from range.
Can you please quit pretending like all of Giroux's goals have come on breakaways? Because that hasn't really been the case, you know.

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11-01-2010, 09:35 PM
  #582
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Whoever compared Giroux to Ovechkin.

Seriously. Stop.

I mean I'm not JC's biggest fan, but the guy takes nothing but crap (currently leading our team in ES points btw) and Giroux is being compared to a top-2 player in the game?

Stop.

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Old
11-01-2010, 09:36 PM
  #583
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Giroux has three things that cannot be coached:

hands
vision
tenacity

I think he will do 30-50-80 this season. More assists if he plays with Carter consistently.

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Old
11-01-2010, 09:45 PM
  #584
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Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
Can you please quit pretending like all of Giroux's goals have come on breakaways? Because that hasn't really been the case, you know.
Around half of them have. When Ovechkin scores 50 goals or Hartnell scores 30 do you really expect half of them to be from breakaways?

I swear, it's like some of you guys are new to hockey. Anyone believing that Giroux can score 40+ goals is being an idiot, to be honest. About half his goals are from fricking breakaways (which, as Jester pointed out, always involve the other team ****ing up badly), and his shooting percentage is ridiculous high to the point where it's well over double his career high.

He won't sustain this kind of success. Over half his points are from goals and around half his goals are from breakaways (three of them SH) and his shooting percentage is in the 25 to 30 percent range.

If you expect him to maintain 30ish percent shooting percentage and to continue getting half of his goals from SH breakaways, then by my guest because you're only fooling yourself.

All the stats point to him just being on a hot streak that he won't be able to sustain. I'm as big of a fan of Giroux as anyone, but I'm also realistic. He hasn't been a good ES player the last season or so (excluding the playoffs I suppose) and his career high in the regular season is 47 points with a -9.

If player's seasons were decided by the first day of November then currently Sharp and Stewart would tie for second place in points, Giroux would be tied for the third best goal-scorer in the league (currently tied with Ovechkin), Thomas would be the best goalie in the league by far (and be an instant HOF candidate), Liles would be tied for most assists league-wide, and Montador would have the second highest +/- league-wide.

Just chill and don't proclaim the guy a PPG stud before he actually is one. Alexandre Giroux has all the talent in the world but that hasn't helped him any (and, no, I'm not saying that Giroux is going to end up like Alexandre Giroux).

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11-01-2010, 09:45 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Whoever compared Giroux to Ovechkin.

Seriously. Stop.

I mean I'm not JC's biggest fan, but the guy takes nothing but crap (currently leading our team in ES points btw) and Giroux is being compared to a top-2 player in the game?

Stop.
I didn't compare Giroux to Ovechkin. What I was doing is ridicule Jester's argument by replacing Giroux's name with Ovechkin's name. I could have chosen any big name player instead because it is a dumb argument to just say "people will figure him out". That argument can be applied to any player you want, yet doesn't hold true.

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11-01-2010, 09:48 PM
  #586
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I'd rather have G. on this team then Ovechkin, or that cry baby Crosby

G's playstyle/heart fits into the Flyers history very well

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Old
11-01-2010, 09:49 PM
  #587
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Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
I didn't compare Giroux to Ovechkin. What I was doing is ridicule Jester's argument by replacing Giroux's name with Ovechkin's name. I could have chosen any big name player instead because it is a dumb argument to just say "people will figure him out". That argument can be applied to any player you want, yet doesn't hold true.
Jester already explained why that's an utterly ridiculous comparison. Ovechkin has proven himself capable of over 60 ****ing goals and proven to be consistently one of the best players in the league. It's obvious he can't really be "figured out". He has a missile that he can unleash from anywhere in the ice.

Giroux doesn't have a missile he can unleash anywhere on the ice (in fact, his shot is weak by NHL standards) and it is a fact that around half his goals have come on breakaways (three SH) and he has a ridiculous shooting percentage that is more then twice his career best. He's also never proven himself to be a good goal-scorer or even a 50 point player.

It's a horrible comparison and point for you to make. Two completely different players and, unless you expect for Giroux to get half of his goals on SH breakaways, teams will figure out Giroux in the sense that they'll stop letting him get a breakaway every other game.

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Old
11-01-2010, 09:49 PM
  #588
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan4life View Post
I'd rather have G. on this team then Ovechkin, or that cry baby Crosby

G's playstyle/heart fits into the Flyers history very well

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Old
11-01-2010, 09:50 PM
  #589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gert B Frobe View Post
Giroux has three things that cannot be coached:

hands
vision
tenacity

I think he will do 30-50-80 this season. More assists if he plays with Carter consistently.
Moreover on the "things that cannot be taught front," Giroux has the hockey IQ and confidence required to be an elite player -- you know, the "it" factor.

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11-01-2010, 09:55 PM
  #590
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Garbage Goal, do you actually ****ing read the posts you are responding to or do you only scan the first 5 words and click the quote button?

OK, here's a list for you:
Crosby
Ovechkin
Stamkos
Datsyuk

I'm now going to predict that all of these players will not score more than 20 goals because "people will figure them out".


It's a ****ing retarded argument and it doesn't matter which sort of player, or which player in particular it is applied to. You can't guarantee teams will "figure a player out" or even that the player in question will be figured out, especially a very versatile player like Giroux.

Now if you want to say "his shooting percentage won't stay this high" or "he's not going to have that many breakaways as he did so far when calculated up to timeframe" that's good, that are concrete and decent arguments. "He'll be figured out" is vague ****ing ********.

Additionally, I definitely haven't been saying that Giroux will score 40. In fact, what I said is that I expect him to score 30. However, declaring it impossible for him to score 40 is ridiculous in the same manner as saying that he will score 40.

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Old
11-01-2010, 09:56 PM
  #591
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Thank God we won. Work ****ing sucked camel ****!!!!!!

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Old
11-01-2010, 09:57 PM
  #592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Jester already explained why that's an utterly ridiculous comparison. Ovechkin has proven himself capable of over 60 ****ing goals and proven to be consistently one of the best players in the league. It's obvious he can't really be "figured out". He has a missile that he can unleash from anywhere in the ice.

Giroux doesn't have a missile he can unleash anywhere on the ice (in fact, his shot is weak by NHL standards) and it is a fact that around half his goals have come on breakaways (three SH) and he has a ridiculous shooting percentage that is more then twice his career best. He's also never proven himself to be a good goal-scorer or even a 50 point player.

It's a horrible comparison and point for you to make. Two completely different players and, unless you expect for Giroux to get half of his goals on SH breakaways, teams will figure out Giroux in the sense that they'll stop letting him get a breakaway every other game.

So Giroux is only a product of other team's bad play? I don't buy that one bit. I'm sorry, but good players put themselves into opportunities to score. And you know what happens when teams start "figuring out" Giroux on the PowerPlay? they are playing only four men in the zone because they worry way too much about Giroux picking up a long pass or blocking a shot. . . thus making the other team's PP fairly useless when he is on the ice. He's a smart player and smart players are able to read plays and capitalize. I mean hell . . . have people "figured out" Mike Richards on the PP, who by the way has the most SHGs in the league since he's entered? He's certainly no where near as talented as Giroux, yet put up 30+ goals last year.

I'm not going to say he's a Sidney Crosby, who by the way had an average at best shot when he entered the league, but he has talent and drive that very few have in the game. He is going to put up points. The more teams worry about him then his Gs will go down, but his As will pick up.

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Old
11-01-2010, 10:00 PM
  #593
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Around half of them have. When Ovechkin scores 50 goals or Hartnell scores 30 do you really expect half of them to be from breakaways?

I swear, it's like some of you guys are new to hockey. Anyone believing that Giroux can score 40+ goals is being an idiot, to be honest. About half his goals are from fricking breakaways (which, as Jester pointed out, always involve the other team ****ing up badly), and his shooting percentage is ridiculous high to the point where it's well over double his career high.

He won't sustain this kind of success. Over half his points are from goals and around half his goals are from breakaways (three of them SH) and his shooting percentage is in the 25 to 30 percent range.

If you expect him to maintain 30ish percent shooting percentage and to continue getting half of his goals from SH breakaways, then by my guest because you're only fooling yourself.

All the stats point to him just being on a hot streak that he won't be able to sustain. I'm as big of a fan of Giroux as anyone, but I'm also realistic. He hasn't been a good ES player the last season or so (excluding the playoffs I suppose) and his career high in the regular season is 47 points with a -9.

If player's seasons were decided by the first day of November then currently Sharp and Stewart would tie for second place in points, Giroux would be tied for the third best goal-scorer in the league (currently tied with Ovechkin), Thomas would be the best goalie in the league by far (and be an instant HOF candidate), Liles would be tied for most assists league-wide, and Montador would have the second highest +/- league-wide.

Just chill and don't proclaim the guy a PPG stud before he actually is one. Alexandre Giroux has all the talent in the world but that hasn't helped him any (and, no, I'm not saying that Giroux is going to end up like Alexandre Giroux).
Have you ever thought that Giroux has put himself in positions to score and is working hard to do so? So all of his goals are products of the other teams making mistakes, not him making a good play or hustling. His superior hockey sense allows him to do things most players can't, and he's finally finishing his offensive opportunities. If you can't accept that he's finishing the chances he creates then thats unfortunate. Hell Roo could of had a hatty tonight!

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Old
11-01-2010, 10:02 PM
  #594
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Originally Posted by dbr2 View Post
Thank God we won. Work ****ing sucked camel ****!!!!!!
Yea you wouldnt figure that out if you just read this thread. Damn. I guess 4 game win streaks and certain players doing well over others can do that to ya.

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11-01-2010, 10:19 PM
  #595
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Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
Garbage Goal, do you actually ****ing read the posts you are responding to or do you only scan the first 5 words and click the quote button?
I'd like to ask you the same thing.

Quote:
OK, here's a list for you:
Crosby
Ovechkin
Stamkos
Datsyuk

I'm now going to predict that all of these players will not score more than 20 goals because "people will figure them out".
Yeah, do you listen at all? Me and Jester both already explained why it's completely stupid to bring up Ovechkin and the like. They have nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Quote:
It's a ****ing retarded argument and it doesn't matter which sort of player, or which player in particular it is applied to. You can't guarantee teams will "figure a player out" or even that the player in question will be figured out, especially a very versatile player like Giroux.
If you expect Giroux to maintain a borderline 30% shooting percentage and get half his goals from breakaways (most of them SH) then be my guest. Only fooling yourself if so.

Quote:
Now if you want to say "his shooting percentage won't stay this high" or "he's not going to have that many breakaways as he did so far when calculated up to timeframe" that's good, that are concrete and decent arguments. "He'll be figured out" is vague ****ing ********.
So...what's you're ****ing point? I wasn't the one who orginally used the phrase "he'll be figured out", but even if I were, both me and Jester elaborated what we meant by that and you seem to be ignoring that elaboration. You're just *****ing for the sake of *****ing.

When we say "he'll be figured out" we mean he's not going to be left ****ing alone to take the goalie one-on-one almost every other game.

Quote:
Additionally, I definitely haven't been saying that Giroux will score 40.
Someone else did.

Quote:
In fact, what I said is that I expect him to score 30. However, declaring it impossible for him to score 40 is ridiculous in the same manner as saying that he will score 40.
It is? If my exacting wording was that it was "impossible" (I don't care enough to go back and see if it was) then you're taking it too literally. How about highly unlikely that he'll score 40? Does that make you feel better?

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Originally Posted by ToTheNet View Post
So Giroux is only a product of other team's bad play?
Around half his goals have been.

Quote:
I don't buy that one bit.
No one is saying that Giroux is a bad player or that all of his production is due to the opponent. People need ****ing reading comprehension on here. It's a fact that around half his goals are from breakaways and it's a fact that breakaways only happen when the other team ****s up by turning the puck over and being too deep in the opposition's zone to get back. So it is a fact that around half of Giroux's goals are due to the opponent ****ing up.

Quote:
I'm sorry, but good players put themselves into opportunities to score.
They do and he is a good player, but when it comes to breakaways it's pretty much necessary that the opponent's team **** up as well.

Quote:
And you know what happens when teams start "figuring out" Giroux on the PowerPlay? they are playing only four men in the zone because they worry way too much about Giroux picking up a long pass or blocking a shot. . . thus making the other team's PP fairly useless when he is on the ice.
When other teams figure out Giroux and, by association, our PK then the SH goals will come by much less.

Giroux has played the system well, but it's a fact that Laviolette and company are the ones who have put the aggressive PK in place and have put the team in a position to score SH. Laviolette and the other coaches deserve just as much, if not more, credit then Giroux for our SH success. Don't forget that.

Quote:
He's a smart player and smart players are able to read plays and capitalize. I mean hell . . . have people "figured out" Mike Richards on the PP, who by the way has the most SHGs in the league since he's entered? He's certainly no where near as talented as Giroux, yet put up 30+ goals last year.
Talent doesn't equate to success. If it did, then guys like Alexandre Giroux, Daigle, Stefan, and Zherdev would rule this league.

Anyways, this discussion has absolutely nothing to do with Richards.

Quote:
I'm not going to say he's a Sidney Crosby, who by the way had an average at best shot when he entered the league, but he has talent and drive that very few have in the game. He is going to put up points. The more teams worry about him then his Gs will go down, but his As will pick up.
...Okay? So Crosby has what to do with Giroux now?

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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyersFan18 View Post
Have you ever thought that Giroux has put himself in positions to score and is working hard to do so? So all of his goals are products of the other teams making mistakes, not him making a good play or hustling.
Learn reading comprehension. No one is saying that all of his goals are due to breakaways. But it is quite literally a fact that about half of them are. It doesn't matter how good of a play you make or how much you hustle, getting breakaways, especially as much as Giroux has had, requires that the other team **** up.

Quote:
His superior hockey sense allows him to do things most players can't, and he's finally finishing his offensive opportunities. If you can't accept that he's finishing the chances he creates then thats unfortunate. Hell Roo could of had a hatty tonight!
Things like talent and hockey sense don't automatically equate to production. Fact is that Giroux's career high is 47 points and I would actually like to see him score 80 points before praising him as such a player.

Giroux had one goal tonight...how is that anywhere close to a hatty? And what does it have to do with this discussion?

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11-01-2010, 10:21 PM
  #596
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Yea you wouldnt figure that out if you just read this thread. Damn. I guess 4 game win streaks and certain players doing well over others can do that to ya.
I read some of the stuff, then stopped.

Vancouver wining so far over the debs.

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11-01-2010, 10:29 PM
  #597
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How was Zherdev's play?

Good to see Wellwood had a good game.

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11-01-2010, 10:33 PM
  #598
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Yeah, do you listen at all? Me and Jester both already explained why it's completely stupid to bring up Ovechkin and the like. They have nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
Yes they do because you are drawing an arbitrary line saying "these kinds of people can't be figured out but this guy will". If you want to criticize a player, you have to point out the actual deficiencies in his game, not just throw out a cliché and pretend like you're done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
So...what's you're ****ing point? I wasn't the one who orginally used the phrase "he'll be figured out", but even if I were, both me and Jester elaborated what we meant by that and you seem to be ignoring that elaboration. You're just *****ing for the sake of *****ing.

When we say "he'll be figured out" we mean he's not going to be left ****ing alone to take the goalie one-on-one almost every other game.
Except that "figuring him out" can mean any number of things. It's vague and it's arbitrary and it is not an argument. You also only elaborated after I objected to that sort of ********.

I also believe that he does deserve some credit for getting himself open to get these kinds of steals and breakaways. That sort of play doesn't happen just by accident.



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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Someone else did.
Then respond to that guy, not to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
It is? If my exacting wording was that it was "impossible" (I don't care enough to go back and see if it was) then you're taking it too literally. How about highly unlikely that he'll score 40? Does that make you feel better?
You said that he "can't score 40" which is the same thing. Is that literal? Yes. Is it possible to construe it somehow else? No. I simply don't like it when people declare something with absolute certainty on no basis.


Last edited by chaosof99*: 11-01-2010 at 10:49 PM.
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11-01-2010, 10:35 PM
  #599
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11-01-2010, 10:37 PM
  #600
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Winner winner chicken dinner.
Three in a row. Booyah.

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