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#12: Hurricanes @ Flyers - Monday, Nov. 1, 2010 - 7:00 PM (ET)

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Old
11-01-2010, 11:38 PM
  #601
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I'm sorry, but 100% of breakaways are not 100% caused by mishaps by the opposing team. Sure, Giroux is not going to get 1-2 breakaways a game. No one is saying that, but breakaways are about hard work by the player getting it as well. Blocking a shot is as much about being in the right spot and reading the play as it is the opposing player shooting it at someone's shin pads. . . breaking up a D to D pass is not just about the D making a bad pass, but being able to understand that it is the only option and anticipating it.

Even breakaways caused by flubs on the blueline are usually caused because the opposing player is putting immense pressure and causing the player to make a mistake.

Please tell me how you correct those because I doubt you can.

If Giroux can keep playing this aggressive style he is going to continue getting chances and while he doesn't have the cannon of a shot that Carter does, he has a VERY accurate wrist shot that can find openings. . . much the same way that. . . and yes, I'm going to make a comparison that you are going to flip out about because god forbid you use another player to help describe a point, but Peter Forsberg was an assassin with the puck because he just saw holes no one else did. . . Giroux is the same way (Not saying he is as good, or anything like that, but they both have an uncanny ability to find openings that most players cannot find)

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11-01-2010, 11:45 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
Yes they do because you are drawing an arbitrary line saying "these kinds of people can't be figured out but this guy will". If you want to criticize a player, you have to point out the actual deficiencies in his game, not just throw out a cliché and pretend like you're done.
Yeah, because it was completely arbitrary. Not like Jester ever said this:

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There's a big difference between a guy that can crank missiles from all over the ice (there is no defense for this play, and it's why Carter will always get his as well), and a guy that is toasting goalies one-on-one. A defense can deny odd-man rushes... it cannot effectively nullify a shot that can flat beat a goalie from range.
Or like I said this:

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Jester already explained why that's an utterly ridiculous comparison. Ovechkin has proven himself capable of over 60 ****ing goals and proven to be consistently one of the best players in the league. It's obvious he can't really be "figured out". He has a missile that he can unleash from anywhere in the ice.

Giroux doesn't have a missile he can unleash anywhere on the ice (in fact, his shot is weak by NHL standards) and it is a fact that around half his goals have come on breakaways (three SH) and he has a ridiculous shooting percentage that is more then twice his career best. He's also never proven himself to be a good goal-scorer or even a 50 point player.

It's a horrible comparison and point for you to make. Two completely different players and, unless you expect for Giroux to get half of his goals on SH breakaways, teams will figure out Giroux in the sense that they'll stop letting him get a breakaway every other game.
Yeah, you're right, me and Jester were being completely arbitrary and we were the ones not backing up our points.



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Except that "figuring him out" can mean any number of things.
Yeah, if Jester never explained what he meant then it could definitely mean any number of things.

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You also only elaborated after I objected to that sort of ********.
I've only made two or three posts prior to this one and I elaborated in both of them. I have no clue what you're talking about.

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I also believe that he does deserve some credit for getting himself open to get these kinds of steals and breakaways. That sort of play doesn't happen just by accident.
You know what else deserve, at the very least, as much credit as Giroux? The other team for ****ing up and our coaching staff for implementing an aggressive PK.

No one is belittling Giroux, we're all just telling people to keep your expectations realistic and to not proclaim the guy the best scorer on the team before he's even scored 50 points for the first time in his career.

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Then respond to that guy, not to me.
Remember when I said this:

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Anyone believing that Giroux can score 40+ goals is being an idiot, to be honest.
You're right, I guess it's my fault for you not being able to comprehend that the word "anyone" was not just directed solely at you.

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You said that he "can't score 40" which is the same thing. Is that literal? Yes. Is it possible to construe it somehow else? No. I simply don't like it when people declare something with absolute certainty on no basis.
1) You take things way too ****ing literally and you're arguing over something that's really idiotic right now.

2) I can't find anywhere where I said, verbatim "can't score 40".

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11-01-2010, 11:47 PM
  #603
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Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
Good pic.

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11-01-2010, 11:48 PM
  #604
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yeah, I took stupid pills today.

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Old
11-01-2010, 11:48 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by ToTheNet View Post
If Giroux can keep playing this aggressive style he is going to continue getting chances and while he doesn't have the cannon of a shot that Carter does, he has a VERY accurate wrist shot that can find openings. . . much the same way that. . . and yes, I'm going to make a comparison that you are going to flip out about because god forbid you use another player to help describe a point, but Peter Forsberg was an assassin with the puck because he just saw holes no one else did. . . Giroux is the same way (Not saying he is as good, or anything like that, but they both have an uncanny ability to find openings that most players cannot find)
Giroux's career high in goals is 16, including playoffs and he has a weak shot...I don't know what you're talking about. Giroux isn't a good goal-scorer unless it's him alone on the goalie.

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11-01-2010, 11:51 PM
  #606
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I'm kinda confused how you can say, "Anyone believing that Giroux can score 40+ goals is being an idiot, to be honest.'

and then come out and say that you never said Giroux cannot score 40+.

It seems like you are fairly confident that Giroux cannot score 40+ goals if you are saying that someone who thinks it may be POSSIBLE, not probably, not likely, not definitely, but POSSIBLE is an idiot for thinking so.

Perhaps if you said it was fairly unlikely he'd get 40+ it wouldn't be a big deal, but when you start calling people idiots for thinking that it might be possible, you pretty much side to the fact that he'll never ever do it and it is just a pipe dream.

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11-01-2010, 11:52 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Whoever compared Giroux to Ovechkin.

Seriously. Stop.

I mean I'm not JC's biggest fan, but the guy takes nothing but crap (currently leading our team in ES points btw) and Giroux is being compared to a top-2 player in the game?

Stop.
While you clearly can't compare him to Ovechkin in terms of production, you can compare their skill. Giroux is starting to prove that he has one of the best pure skill sets in all of hockey.

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11-01-2010, 11:53 PM
  #608
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Garbage goal, how do you know that Giroux is a player that will be figured out? This is why I say it is arbitrary.

Earlier, the term "Proven player" was thrown around. How do you know that Giroux isn't in a season where he proves himself? This is why the argument "people will figure him out" is ********.


But yes, sorry, I didn't quite get it right. You didn't say "can't score 40", but you did say that "Anyone believing that Giroux can score 40+ goals is being an idiot, to be honest" implying that it is not possible for Giroux to do that. Additionally, you were implying that I was saying that he would score 40 by making that statement after quoting me.


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Originally Posted by ToTheNet View Post
I'm kinda confused how you can say, "Anyone believing that Giroux can score 40+ goals is being an idiot, to be honest.'

and then come out and say that you never said Giroux cannot score 40+.

It seems like you are fairly confident that Giroux cannot score 40+ goals if you are saying that someone who thinks it may be POSSIBLE, not probably, not likely, not definitely, but POSSIBLE is an idiot for thinking so.

Perhaps if you said it was fairly unlikely he'd get 40+ it wouldn't be a big deal, but when you start calling people idiots for thinking that it might be possible, you pretty much side to the fact that he'll never ever do it and it is just a pipe dream.
Exactly!

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11-01-2010, 11:54 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I'd like to ask you the same thing.



Yeah, do you listen at all? Me and Jester both already explained why it's completely stupid to bring up Ovechkin and the like. They have nothing to do with the discussion at hand.



If you expect Giroux to maintain a borderline 30% shooting percentage and get half his goals from breakaways (most of them SH) then be my guest. Only fooling yourself if so.



So...what's you're ****ing point? I wasn't the one who orginally used the phrase "he'll be figured out", but even if I were, both me and Jester elaborated what we meant by that and you seem to be ignoring that elaboration. You're just *****ing for the sake of *****ing.

When we say "he'll be figured out" we mean he's not going to be left ****ing alone to take the goalie one-on-one almost every other game.



Someone else did.



It is? If my exacting wording was that it was "impossible" (I don't care enough to go back and see if it was) then you're taking it too literally. How about highly unlikely that he'll score 40? Does that make you feel better?



Around half his goals have been.



No one is saying that Giroux is a bad player or that all of his production is due to the opponent. People need ****ing reading comprehension on here. It's a fact that around half his goals are from breakaways and it's a fact that breakaways only happen when the other team ****s up by turning the puck over and being too deep in the opposition's zone to get back. So it is a fact that around half of Giroux's goals are due to the opponent ****ing up.



They do and he is a good player, but when it comes to breakaways it's pretty much necessary that the opponent's team **** up as well.



When other teams figure out Giroux and, by association, our PK then the SH goals will come by much less.

Giroux has played the system well, but it's a fact that Laviolette and company are the ones who have put the aggressive PK in place and have put the team in a position to score SH. Laviolette and the other coaches deserve just as much, if not more, credit then Giroux for our SH success. Don't forget that.



Talent doesn't equate to success. If it did, then guys like Alexandre Giroux, Daigle, Stefan, and Zherdev would rule this league.

Anyways, this discussion has absolutely nothing to do with Richards.



...Okay? So Crosby has what to do with Giroux now?



Learn reading comprehension. No one is saying that all of his goals are due to breakaways. But it is quite literally a fact that about half of them are. It doesn't matter how good of a play you make or how much you hustle, getting breakaways, especially as much as Giroux has had, requires that the other team **** up.



Things like talent and hockey sense don't automatically equate to production. Fact is that Giroux's career high is 47 points and I would actually like to see him score 80 points before praising him as such a player.

Giroux had one goal tonight...how is that anywhere close to a hatty? And what does it have to do with this discussion?

Do you realize most goals in the NHL are because someone on the ice makes a mistake? As I've stated Giroux's hockey sense and pure hustle allows him to take advantage of those mistakes. He can read a play and pick off passes, you can't teach that. The fact your ignoring his success from the last 30 or so games is ridiculous. Claude won't keep up this pace, but you can surely bet he has arrived. I guess I wasn't aware of the rule where you have to score 80 points to get credit for hardwork and the the success that follows. Sorry I apologize, I guess Carter has been the best player over the last 30 games because he's reached the 80 point plateau.

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11-01-2010, 11:56 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by ToTheNet View Post
I'm kinda confused how you can say, "Anyone believing that Giroux can score 40+ goals is being an idiot, to be honest.'

and then come out and say that you never said Giroux cannot score 40+.

It seems like you are fairly confident that Giroux cannot score 40+ goals if you are saying that someone who thinks it may be POSSIBLE, not probably, not likely, not definitely, but POSSIBLE is an idiot for thinking so.

Perhaps if you said it was fairly unlikely he'd get 40+ it wouldn't be a big deal, but when you start calling people idiots for thinking that it might be possible, you pretty much side to the fact that he'll never ever do it and it is just a pipe dream.
It's possible that I could get hit by lightning the next time I walk outside my house but I don't think it will happen and if someone tells me I'm going to be struck by lightning then I'm probably going to think that they're an idiot.

Practically anything is technically "possible", but not everything is realistic. That's what the different between saying "he can't do it" and saying "you're an idiot for thinking he can" is. With the latter I'm acknowledging that it's entirely possible, but I'm still making it clear that it's completely unrealistic to think that he will.

Idiot might have been a harsh word to use, but it's not my fault if people on here are sensitive. I say what I think (for the most part) and I'm honest. If somebody told you that John Sim could be a 100 point player, wouldn't you think that they're an idiot. It's not being mean, it's being honest.

Anyways, this is a really ****ing stupid thing to argue about.

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11-01-2010, 11:56 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Giroux's career high in goals is 16, including playoffs and he has a weak shot...I don't know what you're talking about. Giroux isn't a good goal-scorer unless it's him alone on the goalie.
Maybe you should check your math.

If we are including play-offs, his career high is 26. He had 10 goals in the play-offs last year in 23 games.

If you want all time career he had 55 his last year in the Q, yes I know it is a typically very high scoring league and even the worst NHL player probably would put up 20-25 goals in the Q.

And when did I say he had a missile shot? I didn't. He has an ACCURATE shot. And I'm fairly sure even dekeing a goalie out of his pants and scoring makes you a goal-scorer. You know. . . that whole scoring goals aspect and all of being a goal-scorer. He isn't going to get the majority of his goals firing a wide open wrister or blast from the point, but in tight he can find wholes and score.

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11-02-2010, 12:02 AM
  #612
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Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
Garbage goal, how do you know that Giroux is a player that will be figured out? This is why I say it is arbitrary.

Earlier, the term "Proven player" was thrown around. How do you know that Giroux isn't in a season where he proves himself? This is why the argument "people will figure him out" is ********.


But yes, sorry, I didn't quite get it right. You didn't say "can't score 40", but you did say that "Anyone believing that Giroux can score 40+ goals is being an idiot, to be honest" implying that it is not possible for Giroux to do that. Additionally, you were implying that I was saying that he would score 40 by making that statement after quoting me.




Exactly!
Exactly x3 . That is my gripe..you cannot conclusively come out and say it's not possible he will score 40 and that anybody that thinks that is a possibility is an idiot. Then in the same breath later on essentially say he could score 40..I mean how Orwellian. Stating two contradictory beliefs and believing in them equally....

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11-02-2010, 12:03 AM
  #613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
It's possible that I could get hit by lightning the next time I walk outside my house but I don't think it will happen and if someone tells me I'm going to be struck by lightning then I'm probably going to think that they're an idiot.

Practically anything is technically "possible", but not everything is realistic. That's what the different between saying "he can't do it" and saying "you're an idiot for thinking he can" is. With the latter I'm acknowledging that it's entirely possible, but I'm still making it clear that it's completely unrealistic to think that he will.

Idiot might have been a harsh word to use, but it's not my fault if people on here are sensitive. I say what I think (for the most part) and I'm honest. If somebody told you that John Sim could be a 100 point player, wouldn't you think that they're an idiot. It's not being mean, it's being honest.

Anyways, this is a really ****ing stupid thing to argue about.

Jon Sim put up 130 pts with the Sarnia Sting back in 95-96, so yes at one point I would have thought it possible that he could have been a 100 point NHL player, but now that he is way up there in age, and barely was signed by an awful NY Islanders team I'd say the likelihood of that happening was slim to none. . . given that we now have years of data that would prove it not possible.

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11-02-2010, 12:05 AM
  #614
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
It's possible that I could get hit by lightning the next time I walk outside my house but I don't think it will happen and if someone tells me I'm going to be struck by lightning then I'm probably going to think that they're an idiot.

Practically anything is technically "possible", but not everything is realistic. That's what the different between saying "he can't do it" and saying "you're an idiot for thinking he can" is. With the latter I'm acknowledging that it's entirely possible, but I'm still making it clear that it's completely unrealistic to think that he will.

Idiot might have been a harsh word to use, but it's not my fault if people on here are sensitive. I say what I think (for the most part) and I'm honest. If somebody told you that John Sim could be a 100 point player, wouldn't you think that they're an idiot. It's not being mean, it's being honest.

Anyways, this is a really ****ing stupid thing to argue about.
Getting struck by lightening and scoring 40 goals by a guy who has very special offensive skills is not the same..that is a massive false equivalency.

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11-02-2010, 12:07 AM
  #615
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Garbage goal, how do you know that Giroux is a player that will be figured out? This is why I say it is arbitrary.
I never said that I think Giroux will stop producing. In fact, I'm not the one even originally used the term "he'll be figured out" (so it's not even my choice of words). I'm just stating that it's impractical to think that Giroux will maintain this scoring pace or get as many breaks as he has.

Quote:
Earlier, the term "Proven player" was thrown around. How do you know that Giroux isn't in a season where he proves himself? This is why the argument "people will figure him out" is ********.
HOw do you know that he is in a season where he proves himself? The point is that it's pretty stupid to crown him as someone who will be our best player when he's never even scored 50 points or 20 goals in his career. I'll start giving Giroux the high praise that some on here give him when all that talent translates to on-ice success.

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But yes, sorry, I didn't quite get it right.
Yeah, I know.

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You didn't say "can't score 40", but you did say that "Anyone believing that Giroux can score 40+ goals is being an idiot, to be honest" implying that it is not possible for Giroux to do that.
Already addressed this after you posted.

Quote:
Additionally, you were implying that I was saying that he would score 40 by making that statement after quoting me.
I shouldn't have to quote every single post I disagree with (which there were a lot of) to make it obvious that not everything I said is directed at the one person I quoted. When I use words like "anyone" and start addressing point that you never made then I feel that it's safe to assume that not everything I've said is being directed at you.

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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyersFan18 View Post
Do you realize most goals in the NHL are because someone on the ice makes a mistake?
Not really. Depends on the player. Ovechkin can just rocket a shot past a goalie or Backstom can thread a perfect pass to get a goal.

You're ignoring the point though. If you expect Giroux to get half his goals on breakaways and to get breakaways at the rate that he's been getting them currently then be my guest.

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Sorry I apologize, I guess Carter has been the best player over the last 30 games because he's reached the 80 point plateau.
I don't know why people keep lumping in the playoffs with the regular season. It's two completely different beasts and we're talking about Giroux's regular season success here.

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11-02-2010, 12:14 AM
  #616
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Maybe you should check your math.

If we are including play-offs, his career high is 26. He had 10 goals in the play-offs last year in 23 games.

If you want all time career he had 55 his last year in the Q, yes I know it is a typically very high scoring league and even the worst NHL player probably would put up 20-25 goals in the Q.

And when did I say he had a missile shot? I didn't. He has an ACCURATE shot. And I'm fairly sure even dekeing a goalie out of his pants and scoring makes you a goal-scorer. You know. . . that whole scoring goals aspect and all of being a goal-scorer. He isn't going to get the majority of his goals firing a wide open wrister or blast from the point, but in tight he can find wholes and score.
Let's also keep tabs on how many goals Giroux scores in shootouts which don't get applied to his goal total but makes a world of difference in getting you the extra point and like you know scoring the deciding shootout goal to get you into the effin playoffs...

But you know..he scored that by himself on a BREAKAWAY and b/c the goalie made a mistake! It was bogus!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-8ciG1RZAI


Last edited by FreshPerspective: 11-02-2010 at 12:22 AM.
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11-02-2010, 12:16 AM
  #617
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Maybe you should check your math.

If we are including play-offs, his career high is 26. He had 10 goals in the play-offs last year in 23 games.
...What? I'm looking at his playoff stats and his career high is 10 goals. So I'm right.

Quote:
If you want all time career he had 55 his last year in the Q, yes I know it is a typically very high scoring league and even the worst NHL player probably would put up 20-25 goals in the Q.
I have no idea what relevance the Q has to the NHL and thus, to this discussion.

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And when did I say he had a missile shot? I didn't.
I never said that you said that either.

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He has an ACCURATE shot.
...Great? That doesn't make him a goal-scorer. I have an accurate shot but I'm sure as hell not gonna be able to be an NHL goal-scorer.

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And I'm fairly sure even dekeing a goalie out of his pants and scoring makes you a goal-scorer. You know. . . that whole scoring goals aspect and all of being a goal-scorer.
Too bad that there's those things called d-men and forward between you and the goalie? If Giroux plans on getting constant breakaways to score his goals then he's be the best goal-scorer in the league. Too bad that won't happen.

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He isn't going to get the majority of his goals firing a wide open wrister or blast from the point, but in tight he can find wholes and score.
If he were a good goal-scorer then all the NHL evidence wouldn't suggest otherwise.

I'll call him a good goal-scorer at the NHL level once he shows that he's actually capable of it.

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Originally Posted by ToTheNet View Post
Jon Sim put up 130 pts with the Sarnia Sting back in 95-96, so yes at one point I would have thought it possible that he could have been a 100 point NHL player,
Way to go off-topic and doge the question. None of that stuff has anything to do with the NHL or to the modern day Jon Sim.

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but now that he is way up there in age, and barely was signed by an awful NY Islanders team I'd say the likelihood of that happening was slim to none. . . given that we now have years of data that would prove it not possible.
The chances are, for all practical and realistic purposes, non-existent. So, yes, you would probably think that someone who thinks Jon Sim is capable of 100 points to, at the very least, be crazy.

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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Getting struck by lightening and scoring 40 goals by a guy who has very special offensive skills is not the same..that is a massive false equivalency.
WHOOOSH

You obviously didn't get the point I'm trying to make. Or you did and you're trying to quibble over something as minor as this.

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11-02-2010, 12:18 AM
  #618
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Let's also keep tabs on how many goals Giroux scores in shootouts which don't get applied to his goal total but makes a world of difference in getting you the extra point and like you know scoring the deciding shootout goal to get you into the effin playoffs...
...Awesome? I think most people think he's our best shootout player (I think he's the best in the league), but that has nothing to do with his regular season goal or point totals and thus nothing to do with the original discussion.

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But you know..he scored that by himself on a BREAKAWAY and b/c the goalie made a mistake! It was bogus!
Yeah, because that's what we've all been saying.

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11-02-2010, 12:22 AM
  #619
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
It's possible that I could get hit by lightning the next time I walk outside my house but I don't think it will happen and if someone tells me I'm going to be struck by lightning then I'm probably going to think that they're an idiot.

Practically anything is technically "possible", but not everything is realistic. That's what the different between saying "he can't do it" and saying "you're an idiot for thinking he can" is. With the latter I'm acknowledging that it's entirely possible, but I'm still making it clear that it's completely unrealistic to think that he will.

Idiot might have been a harsh word to use, but it's not my fault if people on here are sensitive. I say what I think (for the most part) and I'm honest. If somebody told you that John Sim could be a 100 point player, wouldn't you think that they're an idiot. It's not being mean, it's being honest.

Anyways, this is a really ****ing stupid thing to argue about.
If you're trying to suggest that thinking Giroux could score over 40 goals is as plausible (or implausible) as Jon Sim scoring 100 points, you're an idiot.

I know you're not really suggesting that, but that comparison is still just idiotic.

It's not idiotic to think Giroux might score 40 goals. With the skills he has, it's entirely possible if he gets the playing time to do it. Is it terribly likely? Probably not, but to suggest that thinking it's possible is 'idiotic' is pessimistic at best, and more likely just foolish.

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11-02-2010, 12:26 AM
  #620
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
If you're trying to suggest that thinking Giroux could score over 40 goals is as plausible (or implausible) as Jon Sim scoring 100 points, you're an idiot.
Yeah, because that's what I said, right?

Are people here capable of critical thinking? I was demonstrating a point. Someone asked how using the word "idiot" was justified and I explained why. The point is that expecting Giroux to score 40 goals is unrealistic even if it is possible, just like how Jon Sim scoring a 100 points or getting struck by lightning is possible but still unrealistic to the point that I'll call people idiots for telling me otherwise.

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11-02-2010, 12:32 AM
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So, I missed the game, and forgot to record it, how did Z look? Did he play hard since he was a scratch the last few games?

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11-02-2010, 12:46 AM
  #622
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I'm not going to read all the ******** but the simple fact is that in the NHL scoring 20 goals is something to be proud of and doing so consistently is the mark of a solid player. If Giroux does that throughout his career then he has absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.

That's why it is also idiotic to dismiss Carter after he's scored 46 goals. That's literally impossible to do by accident or by luck.

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11-02-2010, 12:51 AM
  #623
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I will just say this....in the last 35 games including the playoffs (23GP) last year and his 12 games thus far this year he has scored 17 goals. Based on that clip which is pretty damn good considering the level of competition in 23 of those games (playoffs)...I think it's both possible and realistic he can score 40 goals this year. Again what may inhibit him which is both possible and realistic is injury just like Carter not reaching 40 last year b/c of injury. If it works for Carter it should fly for Giroux....

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11-02-2010, 12:53 AM
  #624
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
I will just say this....in the last 35 games including the playoffs (23GP) last year and his 12 games thus far this year he has scored 17 goals. Based on that clip which is pretty damn good considering the level of competition in 23 of those games (playoffs)...I think it's both possible and realistic he can score 40 goals this year. Again what may inhibit him which is both possible and realistic is injury just like Carter not reaching 40 last year b/c of injury. If it works for Carter it should fly for Giroux....
If this team ends up with two 40 goal scorers then our salary cap is ****ed.

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11-02-2010, 12:57 AM
  #625
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If this team ends up with two 40 goal scorers then our salary cap is ****ed.
Good problem to have...wish I could say the same for Holmgren our problem GM. This is why paying Carter a fair price is going to be key. If Holmer overpays the dude we could quite possibly and realistically be screwed......

I say Carter should get 5.5-6M...but it depends on the years. I would just like 3 years to be honest. If Carter gets into the 6.5 to 7M cap hit yeah with some of the dead weight we got it's going to be tough..


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