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Hart Wins Without Gretzky or Lemieux

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Old
11-01-2010, 11:10 PM
  #1
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Hart Wins Without Gretzky or Lemieux

The thread about Yzerman's 1989 season and Jagr's 1999 season and the whole subject of era-adjustment got me thinking: who would have won the Hart all the years Gretzky and Lemieux won it if they weren't around?

I'm not necessarily saying all those years are Hart worthy or we should judge players this way. I just think it's interesting considering how much they won them. Here's the Art Ross winners without them.

1981: Marcel Dionne
1982: Mike Bossy
1983: Peter Stastny
1984: Michel Goulet (Paul Coffey)
1985: Dale Hawerchuk (Jari Kurri)
1986: Mike Bossy (Paul Coffey, Jari Kurri)
1987: Doug Gilmore (Mark Messier, Jari Kurri)
1988: Denis Savard
1989: Steve Yzerman
1990: Mark Messier
1991: Brett Hull
1992: Brett Hull (Kevin Stevens)
1993: Pat LaFontaine
1994: Sergei Fedorov

Brett Hull was 16 points ahead of his linemate Adam Oates. Michel Goulet was on Stastny's Nordiques, Goulet being only two points ahead of Stastny that year.

Does history look differently at these players if they got those awards? Does Yzerman win the Sakic/Yzerman debates with a Hart and Art Ross? Are Gilmore and Oates in the Hall already? Does Roy get a Hart and get more respect compared to Hasek in all-time debates? Does Ray Bourque get one?

Did the Hart voting system go by five yet back then? Do we have the votes from back then so we can list who was next in votes those years?


Last edited by Derick*: 11-02-2010 at 01:56 AM.
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11-01-2010, 11:39 PM
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If we remove Gretzky and Lemieux from the league in their Hart years (and the years they were runner-up to each other), here's the next guys in line for the Hart according to the voting:

1980: Dionne
1981: Liut
1982: Trottier
1983: Peeters
1984: Langway
1985: Hawerchuk
1986: Howe
1987: Bourque
1988: Fuhr
1989: Yzerman
1993: Gilmour
1996: Messier

That said, things may have been different if those guys weren't in the league, particularly with the goalies. There were plenty of people happy to vote Liut and Peeters in second place, but if Gretzky wasn't around I imagine a lot of his votes would have gone to a different forward. But you never know.


BTW, some of the more diligent posters here have compiled the most complete voting records I've see anywhere by going through old newspapers year by year:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=145895&page=5


Last edited by arrbez: 11-01-2010 at 11:45 PM.
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Old
11-01-2010, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
The thread about Yzerman's 1989 season and Jagr's 1999 season and the whole subject of era-adjustment got me thinking: who would have won the Hart all the years Gretzky and Lemieux won it if they weren't around?

I'm not necessarily saying all those years are Hart worthy or we should judge players this way. I just think it's interesting considering how much they won them. Here's the Art Ross winners without them.

1981: Marcel Dionne
1982: Mike Bossy
1983: Peter Stastny
1984: Michel Goulet (Paul Coffey)
1985: Dale Hawerchuk (Jari Kurri)
1986: Mike Bossy (Paul Coffey, Jari Kurri)
1987: Doug Gilmore (Mark Messier, Jari Kurri)
1988: Denis Savard
1989: Steve Yzerman
1990: Mark Messier
1991: Brett Hull
1992: Brett Hull (Kevin Stevens)
1993: Pat LaFontaine
1994: Sergei Fedorov

Brett Hull was 16 points ahead of his linemate Adam Oates. Michel Goulet and Dale Hawerchuk were on Stastny's Jets, Goulet being only two points ahead of Stastny that year.

Does history look differently at these players if they got those awards? Does Yzerman win the Sakic/Yzerman debates with two Harts and two Art Rosses? Does Pat LaFontaine get HHOF consideration? Are Gilmore and Oates in the Hall already? Does Roy get a Hart and get more respect compared to Hasek in all-time debates? Does Ray Bourque get one?

Did the Hart voting system go by five yet back then? Do we have the votes from back then so we can list who was next in votes those years?
In what other year would he have won another Hart or Art Ross?

Interesting that if Gretzky and Lemieux never existed, no one during that time would have managed 2 Art Ross trophies as far as I can see there. Which is interesting because I often think the fact that someone different winning the Art Ross each of the last ten seasons is due to the fact that it's harder to stand out now. If not for 2 people's existence, that arguement wouldn't seem to be valid. Then Jagr would be seen as the greatest offensive player since Lafleur.

Edit: Bossy won two. Meant to say two in a row.


Last edited by Infinite Vision*: 11-02-2010 at 08:39 AM.
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Old
11-01-2010, 11:47 PM
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See my old post

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=17969702&postcount=1

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11-01-2010, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
In what other year would he have won another Hart or Art Ross?

Interesting that if Gretzky and Lemieux never existed, no one during that time would have managed 2 Art Ross trophies as far as I can see there. Which is interesting because I often think the fact that someone different winning the Art Ross each of the last ten seasons is due to the fact that it's harder to stand out now. If not for 2 people's existence, that arguement wouldn't seem to be valid. Then Jagr would be seen as the greatest offensive player since Lafleur.
I originally had Yzerman winning in 1990 for Messier being on Gretzky team (player on Gretzky or Lemieux's teams who were ahead of that player in the scoring race are in brackets btw), forgetting that Gretzky had been traded by then. That's what the edit is there for.

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11-02-2010, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
I originally had Yzerman winning in 1990 for Messier being on Gretzky team (player on Gretzky or Lemieux's teams who were ahead of that player in the scoring race are in brackets btw), forgetting that Gretzky had been traded by then. That's what the edit is there for.

Yeah and that was Bourque's damned Hart anyway

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Old
11-02-2010, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Yeah and that was Bourque's damned Hart anyway
Bourque was right behind Gretzky and Lemieux in 1987, then had it stolen from him in 1990. He's probably the only player with zero MVPs who's earned two.

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11-02-2010, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
Does Pat LaFontaine get HHOF consideration?
LaFontaine has been in the Hall since 2003.

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11-02-2010, 12:58 AM
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Really? I find that surprising. I think the debates about which current players should get into the Hall make out the standards to be higher than they are

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11-02-2010, 01:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
Really? I find that surprising. I think the debates about which current players should get into the Hall make out the standards to be higher than they are
I agree. Look on the main board at the "if Ovechkin suffered a career injury today, would he be in the hall?" thread.

It's basically 50/50.

And yet... would anyone seriously take Cam Neely or Pat Lafontaine's career over Ovechkin's by this point?

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11-02-2010, 01:24 AM
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I agree. Look on the main board at the "if Ovechkin suffered a career injury today, would he be in the hall?" thread.

It's basically 50/50.

And yet... would anyone seriously take Cam Neely or Pat Lafontaine's career over Ovechkin's by this point?
The real question is why would anyone take a poll on the main board seriously?

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11-02-2010, 01:26 AM
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The real question is why would anyone take a poll on the main board seriously?
haha truth.

(Seriously though, not picking on Neely or Lafontaine in general, just using them as examples of players who were elite when they were healthy, but with careers greatly cut short).

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11-02-2010, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
The thread about Yzerman's 1989 season and Jagr's 1999 season and the whole subject of era-adjustment got me thinking: who would have won the Hart all the years Gretzky and Lemieux won it if they weren't around?

I'm not necessarily saying all those years are Hart worthy or we should judge players this way. I just think it's interesting considering how much they won them. Here's the Art Ross winners without them.

1981: Marcel Dionne
1982: Mike Bossy
1983: Peter Stastny
1984: Michel Goulet (Paul Coffey)
1985: Dale Hawerchuk (Jari Kurri)
1986: Mike Bossy (Paul Coffey, Jari Kurri)
1987: Doug Gilmore (Mark Messier, Jari Kurri)
1988: Denis Savard
1989: Steve Yzerman
1990: Mark Messier
1991: Brett Hull
1992: Brett Hull (Kevin Stevens)
1993: Pat LaFontaine
1994: Sergei Fedorov

Brett Hull was 16 points ahead of his linemate Adam Oates. Michel Goulet and Dale Hawerchuk were on Stastny's Jets, Goulet being only two points ahead of Stastny that year.

Does history look differently at these players if they got those awards? Does Yzerman win the Sakic/Yzerman debates with two Harts and two Art Rosses? Does Pat LaFontaine get HHOF consideration? Are Gilmore and Oates in the Hall already? Does Roy get a Hart and get more respect compared to Hasek in all-time debates? Does Ray Bourque get one?

Did the Hart voting system go by five yet back then? Do we have the votes from back then so we can list who was next in votes those years?
The bolded sentence confuses me. Goulet and Stastny were obviously teammates but how does Hawerchuk fit into the equation?



Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
If we remove Gretzky and Lemieux from the league in their Hart years (and the years they were runner-up to each other), here's the next guys in line for the Hart according to the voting:

1980: Dionne
1981: Liut
1982: Trottier
1983: Peeters
1984: Langway
1985: Hawerchuk
1986: Howe
1987: Bourque
1988: Fuhr
1989: Yzerman
1993: Gilmour
1996: Messier

That said, things may have been different if those guys weren't in the league, particularly with the goalies. There were plenty of people happy to vote Liut and Peeters in second place, but if Gretzky wasn't around I imagine a lot of his votes would have gone to a different forward. But you never know.


BTW, some of the more diligent posters here have compiled the most complete voting records I've see anywhere by going through old newspapers year by year:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=145895&page=5
Looking at Art Ross winners compared to theoretical Hart winners only Hawerchuk and Yzerman have overlaps. Considering that the Hart and Art Ross have seemingly gone hand in hand I think during those times I think the Art Ross winners would have more Harts. Of course that effect may have been due to the fact it was Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux winning the scoring title by monstrous margins they took the MVP as well.

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11-02-2010, 01:53 AM
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Ugh, mental lapse. My brain connected the Jets and Nordiques because they're both defunct Canadian teams and I was typing faster than I was thinking. I swear I knew Stastny didn't play on the Jets I should pay more attention when doing stuff like this -_-'

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11-02-2010, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Yeah and that was Bourque's damned Hart anyway
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
Bourque was right behind Gretzky and Lemieux in 1987, then had it stolen from him in 1990. He's probably the only player with zero MVPs who's earned two.
Agreed.

That's the main reason I can't place Lidstrom above him. Lidstrom hasn't had a Hart caliber season.

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11-02-2010, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
The thread about Yzerman's 1989 season and Jagr's 1999 season and the whole subject of era-adjustment got me thinking: who would have won the Hart all the years Gretzky and Lemieux won it if they weren't around?

I'm not necessarily saying all those years are Hart worthy or we should judge players this way. I just think it's interesting considering how much they won them. Here's the Art Ross winners without them.

1981: Marcel Dionne
1982: Mike Bossy
1983: Peter Stastny
1984: Michel Goulet (Paul Coffey)
1985: Dale Hawerchuk (Jari Kurri)
1986: Mike Bossy (Paul Coffey, Jari Kurri)
1987: Doug Gilmore (Mark Messier, Jari Kurri)
1988: Denis Savard
1989: Steve Yzerman
1990: Mark Messier
1991: Brett Hull
1992: Brett Hull (Kevin Stevens)
1993: Pat LaFontaine
1994: Sergei Fedorov
It's arguable that Messier wins the Art Ross in 87' without Gretzky on his team. Unlike Kurri, they did not play on the same line, and Messier probably would have had more PP time without Wayne on the team. It's not a certainty, but something to consider.

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11-02-2010, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
In what other year would he have won another Hart or Art Ross?

Interesting that if Gretzky and Lemieux never existed, no one during that time would have managed 2 Art Ross trophies as far as I can see there. Which is interesting because I often think the fact that someone different winning the Art Ross each of the last ten seasons is due to the fact that it's harder to stand out now. If not for 2 people's existence, that arguement wouldn't seem to be valid. Then Jagr would be seen as the greatest offensive player since Lafleur.

Edit: Bossy won two. Meant to say two in a row.
Brett Hull probably would have had two in a row. 91' and 92'


Last edited by Hawkey Town 18: 11-02-2010 at 02:13 PM.
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Old
11-02-2010, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnnyD View Post
Brett Hull probably would have had two in a row.
I would of had two as well....if only my bantem coach didn't hate me and hold me back!

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11-02-2010, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOOMUCHBREWER View Post
Looking at Art Ross winners compared to theoretical Hart winners only Hawerchuk and Yzerman have overlaps. Considering that the Hart and Art Ross have seemingly gone hand in hand I think during those times I think the Art Ross winners would have more Harts. Of course that effect may have been due to the fact it was Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux winning the scoring title by monstrous margins they took the MVP as well.
Yeah, I agree. I think a lot of the Gretzky/Lemieux votes would go to another high-scoring forward. I think there's a lot of voters who consider the best offensive player in the league the almost automatic MVP (and they aren't necessarily wrong).

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