If it's well known for a random HF poster to know this then you shouldn't have a problem digging out that proof.
Stop saying everything is well known and start backing up what you're saying with facts.
Only player I heard off was Berglund and that was apparently for Price. But he was coming off a poor sophomore year, only has 1 year left in current contract, and these were simply a rumor flying around (forget where). Wasn't a fact.
Neither you, or me, or anybody can really know if we got the best deal around. Sure, you can stipulate about a million different scenario, doesn't make any of them true.
For the record, I do believe we could have had more especially if we waited longer, but I'm also aware that waiting longer to trade Halak might have complicated things more so than helped. From what we heard, Gauthier aimed Eller personally and wasn't interested in hearing anything without him being involved. So let's hope he does turn out to be as good as PG envisioned.
Other posters have backed up my claim. Again, GM's are not going to namedrop players that were talked about in a trade. So I'm not going to find a quote from Gauthier or the Blues GM.
You say that Gauthier couldn't have done better than Eller. Well, only 2 teams knew Halak was on the block so I'm having a hard time believing Eller was the best deal out there.
If you can sit there and tell me Gainey has had a good trade record with the Habs...then there's no point in me even talking to you. You're a shill..and I've told yout his many times. I've never seen you say anything critical about this team.
I've been critical. I just don't post end of the world statements like you do. I've posted about areas I felt we needed to improve on, but I don't whine about. I've criticized Martin's decison of grinders on the 2nd line, go read that. I've criticized Plekanec many times(about if offensive and physical game). I've complained about the way the defense has played the last few games in this very thread. I also implicitly mentioned how I didn't like the being outshot by a wide margin last year.
The difference between you and me, is that I have patience. Also, I don't blow every problem out of proportion and whine about it 24/7. I identify a weakness and look at ways to perhaps fix that without resorting to Martin's an idiot or gauthier sucks or Price is terrible or Molson's an idiot. That's why I have a lot more respect for some posters like Kriss, who doesn't criticize the way you do, but he still criticizes. I didn't agree with all of Gainey's moves, one of them was that I didn't like him signing overpaid role players for the bottom 6, I said this many times. But I have never whined about it.
And I'm still waiting for the list of every Gainey trade and you showing me where we got fleeced every 4 out of 5. Also, I'm waiting for the explanation of how Gainey's appearnt getting fleeced leads to you giving Gauthier zero consideration in the fact that maybe, just maybe he knows what he's doing.
Only reason I want Eller sent down is cuz he's not getting top minutes up here. IMO, if he's not on the top 2 lines, you send him down and allow him to play big minutes in the minors. He's got all the tools, you can see it...but playing with unskilled players is going to only hurt his development IMO.
ever heard of a guy named Tomas Plekanec? He developed nicely starting out on the 3rd/4th lines with plumbers...
there is nothing at all wrong with starting out on the 3rd/4th line. holy cow!!
he has noting left to prove in the AHL, do your homework.
ever heard of a guy named Tomas Plekanec? He developed nicely starting out on the 3rd/4th lines with plumbers...
there is nothing at all wrong with starting out on the 3rd line. holy cow!!
A lot of players start out as third line centers and move there way up. You are right, there is absolutley nothing wrong with that, especially that we have proof on our own team that it is possible. In fact, Plekanec has been the best developed montreal forward in the longest time and he's one of the only ones who spend three years in hamilton, started out a on a 3rd line and moved his way up to earn his spot.
Other posters have backed up my claim. Again, GM's are not going to namedrop players that were talked about in a trade. So I'm not going to find a quote from Gauthier or the Blues GM.
You say that Gauthier couldn't have done better than Eller. Well, only 2 teams knew Halak was on the block so I'm having a hard time believing Eller was the best deal out there.
complete horse dung.
Every single team in the NHL and the KHL knew that either Price or Halak was gone. So if someone wanted one of them they had all last year and from the end of the Conf. Finals till Halak got traded.
Other posters have backed up my claim. Again, GM's are not going to namedrop players that were talked about in a trade. So I'm not going to find a quote from Gauthier or the Blues GM.
You say that Gauthier couldn't have done better than Eller. Well, only 2 teams knew Halak was on the block so I'm having a hard time believing Eller was the best deal out there.
Sorry, but other posters are not what I call proof. I'm not asking for a quote from the GMs. But if you're saying that it's ''a well known fact'' that other players were offered then surely you can find a quote from an analyst or anything of the sort. If not, then stop spreading an idea around as if it were a fact (especially if your strongest proof is that posters here have talked about it..).
As for me saying Gauthier couldn't have done better, I said the exact opposite. I said he probably could have gotten better if he waited longer, but I also understand why he couldn't wait too long.
Again, where did you come up with the fact that only 2 teams knew Halak was on the block???..You spit out of lot of theories but I rarely see you back them up. True or not, if you want people to take you seriously, bring out the facts and links.
The Goalie situation in Mtl was clear and obvious. We had two keepers without contracts, both are young, good and need more playing time. You can also add in the fact that Halak's agent Walsh made his disappointment public during the year when he posted how unfairly his goalie was treated on TWITTER. Gainey even admitted that he was looking around to see if he could move him, rumors said he offered him to Philly.
So I have a very, very hard time believing only 2 teams in the NHL knew that there was a chance one of our goalies ended up being moved.
Every fan in Mtl could have told you one of them would be gone. A few hopefuls that wished we'd keep both but even they had doubts. So, how does a whole population know this but it passes off radar for 27 other GMs??..Doesn't make any sense.
I've been critical. I just don't post end of the world statements like you do. I've posted about areas I felt we needed to improve on, but I don't whine about. I've criticized Martin's decison of grinders on the 2nd line, go read that. I've criticized Plekanec many times(about if offensive and physical game). I've complained about the way the defense has played the last few games in this very thread. I also implicitly mentioned how I didn't like the being outshot by a wide margin last year.
The difference between you and me, is that I have patience. Also, I don't blow every problem out of proportion and whine about it 24/7. I identify a weakness and look at ways to perhaps fix that without resorting to Martin's an idiot or gauthier sucks or Price is terrible or Molson's an idiot. That's why I have a lot more respect for some posters like Kriss, who doesn't criticize the way you do, but he still criticizes. I didn't agree with all of Gainey's moves, one of them was that I didn't like him signing overpaid role players for the bottom 6, I said this many times. But I have never whined about it.
And I'm still waiting for the list of every Gainey trade and you showing me where we got fleeced every 4 out of 5. Also, I'm waiting for the explanation of how Gainey's appearnt getting fleeced leads to you giving Gauthier zero consideration in the fact that maybe, just maybe he knows what he's doing.
OK, so you criticize and I whine...even though we criticize virtually the same things. Got it.
complete horse dung.
Every single team in the NHL and the KHL knew that either Price or Halak was gone. So if someone wanted one of them they had all last year and from the end of the Conf. Finals till Halak got traded.
wake up ppl.!!!!!1
And one of those goalies had his value at an all time high while the other was at an all time low but with allstar potential. Halak was traded for a high end prospect and filler, a trade that was being negotiated during his fantastic playoff run. St.Louis will see an immediate impact with Halak in the regular season and playoffs. Our side of the trade, we won't see the impact for at least a few seasons.
Now if they got someone with a little more NHL experience that could have made a difference in our lineup right away people might not complain as much but will see...at least Price is shutting up his doubters up with good goaltending so far, if he was struggling people would be calling for his head on a plate.
Eller has had some flashes but looks like he is not NHL ready, he probably should be the #1 center in Hamilton and dominate there like Subban did last year, look how well he turned out.
complete horse dung.
Every single team in the NHL and the KHL knew that either Price or Halak was gone. So if someone wanted one of them they had all last year and from the end of the Conf. Finals till Halak got traded.
wake up ppl.!!!!!1
No one knew which one was available. And there was a chance that the Habs would sign both of them. Damn near everyone outside Montreal though they'd keep Halak over Price. Even the Blues thought Price was the one on the block. I don't care what you say...the Halak situation was not handled as well as it could have...and not getting a top 6 winger was a big mistake.
No one knew which one was available. And there was a chance that the Habs would sign both of them. Damn near everyone outside Montreal though they'd keep Halak over Price. Even the Blues thought Price was the one on the block. I don't care what you say...the Halak situation was not handled as well as it could have...and not getting a top 6 winger was a big mistake.
Bob MacKenzie tweeted earlier in the Summer that Gauthier let everyone know that both goalies were available and that he was doing so to see what the best offer would be. I made a thread about it also.
EDIT: It wasn't on twitter it was on team 990.
here's the post
Quote:
got this from a poster on the other board who was listening in
Quote:
Nothing particularly new. But worth noting nonethless.
Courtesy of Team 990
-----------------------
- Both Halak and Price are on the block to gauge who will bring the most back in return.
- Versteeg, Sopel, Campbell and Huet are all on the trading block. However, the chances of Campbell and Huet being moved are very slim to none. Expect Huet to be dumped to the minors.
- Nathan Horton and Jason Spezza are available for the right price.
- Odds are Ryan Malone will be dealt before July 1st
No one knew which one was available. And there was a chance that the Habs would sign both of them. Damn near everyone outside Montreal though they'd keep Halak over Price. Even the Blues thought Price was the one on the block. I don't care what you say...the Halak situation was not handled as well as it could have...and not getting a top 6 winger was a big mistake.
you lie like rug
they were never going to both sign with Montreal. its been stated many times that they both wanted and expected to be #1s on whatever team they were going to play on this season.
and Heck Montreal didn't know which one was going till they got the best deal they could with St.Louis.
for all the ppl that think they could have gotten better. Donkey dung
maybe if they waited they could have gotten more or less you cant say for sure .
they couldn't wait forever so you make the deal and then finish filling out the roster. Unproven goalies are not worth much. We got good value for Halak.
and Eller has already dominated the AHL, he needs not do it again.
He is ready for 3rd/4th line duties its just some ppl expect a top line center now.
No one knew which one was available. And there was a chance that the Habs would sign both of them. Damn near everyone outside Montreal though they'd keep Halak over Price. Even the Blues thought Price was the one on the block. I don't care what you say...the Halak situation was not handled as well as it could have...and not getting a top 6 winger was a big mistake.
That remains to be seen. Martin didn't even give Pouliot a chance on the top 6. Three games in he moved him down even though he was outplaying both Gomez and Gionta.
From there, we put grinders on the 2nd line.
Also, Gauthier is a firm believer that you pick the best player, no matter the position. Sure, we could have gone for a top six winger but they felt we were good there with Pouliot, A.Ko, Gio and Cammy. A little set back has made Martin move Pouliot down in order for him to improve his defensive game. So I'm pretty sure that the top 6 player we could have gotten might have also been placed on the bottom lines unless he was already a solid two way player.
I think Martin understood that his little strategy with a grinder on the 2nd wasn't working, he finally placed A.Ko next to Gomez and Gionta (something I said he should try doing in other threads btw if he didn't want to put Pouliot there). Hopefully, he'll put Pouliot in the top 6 as well.
We're still playing well, better than last year, so there's improvement on that front.
Price or Halak, it doesn't matter, one of our goalies would end up being moved and everybody knew it. We had very little cap space, had some bottom players to re-sign, absolutely needed Plekanec and so that left very little space.
Please don't try to argue nobody knew one of our goalies was on the block. It was as easy to know as it was for S.Kost.
if teams were interested in acquiring Halak this past summer and didn't call Goats who is to blame?
They all knew that Goats was trading one of them. Why not make a pitch? couldn't hurt.
you don't think they did? they did, but Montreal trade talk ends with the GM's. rarely and not till years later do we hear stuff usually(i mean facts abut trade talk).
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBee
Really? Post proof of that. I was one of the few who liked the move. Go search my posts... I will leave this site if you find a post where I criticize that trade. Again, where did I complain about the Halpern trade? All I said is he would have been nicer 5 years ago and would rather have Moore. You call this complaining?
You're speaking out your ass. I've been nothing but complimentary of Price's play...read this thread, I even commented on Price playing above expectations.
Quiet for 10 games? I have been pointing out these holes since last season.
I'm not even going to waste my time with someone who makes things up out of thin air.
Please don't try to argue nobody knew one of our goalies was on the block. It was as easy to know as it was for S.Kost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toro
if teams were interested in acquiring Halak this past summer and didn't call Goats who is to blame?
They all knew that Goats was trading one of them. Why not make a pitch? couldn't hurt.
you don't think they did? they did, but Montreal trade talk ends with the GM's. rarely and not till years later do we hear stuff usually(i mean facts abut trade talk).
Don't worry guys, I just quoted my post from earlier in the Summer when Bob MacKenzie said that Gauthier was letting all teams know both Halak and Price were available to gauge the best possible return.
What about the other players who played on the 3rd and 4th lines and were either shipped off or didn't pan out?
Plekanec is like the only homegrown forward that has actually panned out in the last 10 years.
Centers need to learn a good 2 way game, thus why its good to start out there.
also lots of players start out on the 3rd and 4th lines all over the league. its the way it works. Its more rare to start out on a top line. most of Detroits top players started out on the bottom lines.
Don't worry guys, I just quoted my post from earlier in the Summer when Bob MacKenzie said that Gauthier was letting all teams know both Halak and Price were available to gauge the best possible return.
So why did teams act like they had no idea the goalies were on the block? And it was McKenzie who said he talked to GM's that had no idea Halak was available.
Plus, if you want to trade a player you contact teams....you don't just wait for a team to contact you. That's like putting your resume on workopolis and expecting employers to call you rather than being pro-active and going to the employers yourself.
Only on this forum is wanting one player over another complaining.
How many more trades did Gainey make afterwards? Lang for a second was garbage? He was our best player until he went down. Tanguay for a first was whatever. What other moves were bad? Bonk and Huet for Garon was garbage? Again, provide me a list of all Gainey's trades and show me that he got fleeced in every 4 of 5 of those trades.
If Gauthier hasn't made any trades for you to judge then why did you justify your giving other Gms the benefit of the doubt before the one of the team you cheer for(assuming you do cheer for them, it looks like you don't) by claiming that we get fleeced. You have flawed logic here.
What you think and happened or what will happen are to different things. Don't pass around what you think as fact and act all high and might when you just said you don't know how it will play out. It may not benefit us now, but it could make us an even better team in the future. Like I said the problem here is fans think about immediate short-term gains that satisfy them as fans. GMs make long-term calculated deals(most of the time) that satisfy the team first. Until you learn that distinction YOU, yes, YOU will always complain about everything, every little detail.
The Tanguay trade wasn't horrible, but it should fall into the poor asset management category for me. Trading top picks for someone they had no intention on bringing back. If they didn't know he was soft before they traded for him, they mustn't been paying attention.
So why did teams act like they had no idea the goalies were on the block? And it was McKenzie who said he talked to GM's that had no idea Halak was available.
Plus, if you want to trade a player you contact teams....you don't just wait for a team to contact you. That's like putting your resume on workopolis and expecting employers to call you rather than being pro-active and going to the employers yourself.
Only on this forum is wanting one player over another complaining.
so now your comparing Montreal and 29 trading partners to putting your resume on workopolis?
So why did teams act like they had no idea the goalies were on the block? And it was McKenzie who said he talked to GM's that had no idea Halak was available.
Plus, if you want to trade a player you contact teams....you don't just wait for a team to contact you. That's like putting your resume on workopolis and expecting employers to call you rather than being pro-active and going to the employers yourself.
Only on this forum is wanting one player over another complaining.
You're complaining as though you have facts to back up your wanting. I want Crosby and I'm pissed Gauthier didn't trade Halak for him.
What you want, what was offered and what happened are all different things. You have facts only two of those(what you want and what happened), yet complain most about the middle part, which you have no facts.
Who knows why MacKenzie said GMs had no idea Halak was available, but he said that earlier in teh summer that gauthier told teams both were available.
I also think you're confusing what he said. MacKenzie said that other teams were mad the Gauthier didn't contact them to discuss a trade about Halak, he never said anything about being availble.
Also, there is just too many conflicting reports to pass any of this crap as true as Elliot Friedman said more teams called for Price than Halak. So teams knew these goalies were available, it was quite obvious, it's all that was talked about the entire playoffs, even on non-partial habs networks.
The Tanguay trade wasn't horrible, but it should fall into the poor asset management category for me. Trading top picks for someone they had no intention on bringing back. If they didn't know he was soft before they traded for him, they mustn't been paying attention.
Wasn't it the 25th pick overall,? Calgary picked Greg Nemisz with it if I'm not mistaken. Tanguay was picked up because Gainey mentioned how he wanted to improve 5 on 5 scoring. Tanguay and Lang excelled in this area the previous year. I'm not saying it was or wasn't a good pickup, but Montreal's offense came primarily from one line the previous year. They also lived by their PP. We needed top 6 players and Gainey got two.
It was by no means a bad trade considering that most contenders give up assets to acquire what they need and there was a huge consensus that Montreal would be a contender. I'm sure had Gainey done nothing, people would still complained.
I still don't see how we got fleeced(not referring to you, but reffering to JayBee) for trading for Tanguay as it is the standard trade for pieces you need to become a contender. It didn't work out, but Tanguay wasn't the only problem, the entire team crapped the bed that year. Gainey did what he needed to do, he got two top 6 forwards for secondary scoring. We needed that as much as we needed toughness. It didn't work out and he moved on. You can't predict how your moves will pan out. He had clear intentions and justifiable intentions for acquiring Tanguay. Everyone was excited about acquiring Tanguay, only after the season ended did people complain. But he along with Kovalev and Koivu helped squeeze into the playoffs when they had that crazy pointstreak in their final 15 games.
You think Eller was the best value out there? Please, St.Louis offered WINGERS for Halak.
Hell, no one even knew which goalie was on the trade block. Gauthier always wanted Eller and wouldn't take anyone else.
So please, stop acting like Eller was the best option to plug a top 6 winger hole.
I'm sure they offered Boyes, they have been trying to move him for a year, but that would have been horrible return for Halak even though the press and non hockey experts would have liked that deal more.
Did you ever stop and think that Gauthier went for the best player available, just taking a player to fille a hole in June 2010 would ahve been VERY shortsighted.
If Eller has a better future than Perron or Boyes, then it was well worth taking him in the deal. To me he has future #1 center upside, a 6'2" version of Plekanec...but he'll require a few years to develop into that player. Plus, those players make a lot more money, we wouldn't have been able to fit Boyes under the cap. Backes may have been or not untoucheable, plus I believe is coming up as a UFA so it would have been risky.
Holding on to Halak waiting for a better deal could have backfired big time, just look at what guys like Ellis, Turco and Niemi ended up signing for, it was obvious that there was more supply than demand in the goalie market. If Eller develops into a big top 6 center who can put up 60 or more points a year, that deal will look good.
I'm sure they offered Boyes, they have been trying to move him for a year, but that would have been horrible return for Halak even though the press and non hockey experts would have liked that deal more.
Did you ever stop and think that Gauthier went for the best player available, just taking a player to fille a hole in June 2010 would ahve been VERY shortsighted.
If Eller has a better future than Perron or Boyes, then it was well worth taking him in the deal. To me he has future #1 center upside, a 6'2" version of Plekanec...but he'll require a few years to develop into that player. Plus, those players make a lot more money, we wouldn't have been able to fit Boyes under the cap. Backes may have been or not untoucheable, plus I believe is coming up as a UFA so it would have been risky.
Holding on to Halak waiting for a better deal could have backfired big time, just look at what guys like Ellis, Turco and Niemi ended up signing for, it was obvious that there was more supply than demand in the goalie market. If Eller develops into a big top 6 center who can put up 60 or more points a year, that deal will look good.
PG said multiple times post trade interviews that he went for best asset value wise; low cap hit for for years to come and high upside; specifically said he wasnt looking for established top 6 with high salary already
also said he knew eller would of been bottom 6 for this year, and top 6 next years.
anyone can see eller is fully developped already, and is getting secondary on ice tasks; defensive wise and on ice responsabilities until they let him loose and give him the proper offensive partners, which is gonna wait until next year unless there is injury involved. this was the plan prior to the start of the season.
