HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Notices

You are GM, What Do You Do?

View Poll Results: Which Choice Do you make?
Sign Giroux/Leino to contracts, trade Carter? 27 32.93%
Sign Giroux, and lock Carter into a Richards type deal? 25 30.49%
Sign Carter/Leino and trade Giroux? 0 0%
Move a Dman and sign all three including NTC/NMC's? 30 36.59%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-04-2010, 02:58 PM
  #101
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,871
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Leino is one of those players who you think you can repalce and then when he is gone you lose a piece of the offense you wish you had. He is a puck possession guy, who can play along the boards and play the game how coaches want it to be played in the offensive zone...down low, along the boards, establish the cycle and create chances off of the puck possession. I think 3yrs, $3-3.5 would be a max deal, $4mill and no thanks unless he puts up some nasty numbers this season.


Would you prefer Coby Armstrong/Ryan Malone or Ville Leino, look at the cap hit now.
3.5m is a little steep. 2.5-3.0 sounds good.

I think this is the first time I actually agree with you.

CS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:01 PM
  #102
Cartsiephan*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I won't.

The reality of the salary cap is that you can't be paying your 9th forward as far as priority goes 3M a year.

You drop that much coin on Leino, what do you do when JVR breaks out next year? (And, yes, for that reason alone Holmgren will drop that much coin on Leino.)
You have already traded Carter to get back some cap space and a couple prospects/picks, this is why it is necessary to move him now when his value could be highest.

Cartsiephan* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:03 PM
  #103
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
You have already traded Carter to get back some cap space and a couple prospects/picks, this is why it is necessary to move him now when his value could be highest.
Yes, because I absolutely want to ditch an established scorer so I can keep a guy like Leino. For ****'s sake you're ridiculous.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:04 PM
  #104
Cartsiephan*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
3.5m is a little steep. 2.5-3.0 sounds good.

I think this is the first time I actually agree with you.
That is why I used Armstrong and Malone as the guys who he will be compared to in relation to salary. I think it will be right in the $3.25mill range.

Cartsiephan* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:08 PM
  #105
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Ville Leino has played 80 games in the NHL, has scored 30 pts... and people want to give him 3+M?

I mean, cem on.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:08 PM
  #106
Cartsiephan*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yes, because I absolutely want to ditch an established scorer so I can keep a guy like Leino. For ****'s sake you're ridiculous.
Sometimes the sum of the parts are greater than the whole. If you get a solid return for Carter and keep Leino on the LBH line it brings some cap relief and futures back to the organization to rebuild the farm system. I am not moving Carter until after the seaon but it is certainly something to consider, especially if Carter blows in the playoffs again.

Cartsiephan* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:10 PM
  #107
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
That is why I used Armstrong and Malone as the guys who he will be compared to in relation to salary. I think it will be right in the $3.25mill range.
Ryan Malone would have 6 consecutive seasons of 20+ goals if not for injury.

Colby Armstrong has been in the league for 6 years, and produces points along with physical play.

They are not good comparisons for a guy that has never played a full season in the NHL.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:11 PM
  #108
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Sometimes the sum of the parts are greater than the whole. If you get a solid return for Carter and keep Leino on the LBH line it brings some cap relief and futures back to the organization to rebuild the farm system. I am not moving Carter until after the seaon but it is certainly something to consider, especially if Carter blows in the playoffs again.
Yes, because you hate him. We know.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:11 PM
  #109
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,871
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yes, because I absolutely want to ditch an established scorer so I can keep a guy like Leino. For ****'s sake you're ridiculous.
Yeah, he lost me there.

Nodl (0.80) - Richards (5.75) - Giroux (3.50)
Hartnell (4.20) - Briere (6.50) - Leino (3.00)
vanRiemsdyk (1.65) - Carter (5.75) - Wellwood (0.58)
Powe (0.80) - Betts (0.70) - Carcillo (1.00)
Shelley (1.10)

Pronger (4.92) - Carle (3.44)
Timonen (6.33) - Coburn (3.20)
Meszaros (4.00) - Gustafsson (0.90)
Bartulis (0.60)

Bobrovsky (1.75)
Leighton (1.55)

Assuming Walker is waived, that's 62.02m spent on a realistic best case scenario (Carter - 5.75, Giroux - 3.50, and Leino 3.00).

We're still a bit over.

CS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:12 PM
  #110
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,414
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Ville Leino has played 80 games in the NHL, has scored 30 pts... and people want to give him 3+M?

I mean, cem on.
So when Giroux asks for 3+M?

Snotbubbles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:13 PM
  #111
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Leino has been a nice player (since the playoffs) for us. But he's somewhat one-dimensional, and you can find other guys out there that will replace the majority of his contribution (if not all of it) for a not so steep price.

If Leino holds out for a big contract, you walk away.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:15 PM
  #112
Cartsiephan*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Ville Leino has played 80 games in the NHL, has scored 30 pts... and people want to give him 3+M?

I mean, cem on.
Depends what he does this season, but if he continues to play like he has it would be worth it. This is off-season decisions so obviously things could change between now and then, but up to this point Leino has been more valuable than Carter.

Cartsiephan* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:15 PM
  #113
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
So when Giroux asks for 3+M?
Big difference between Giroux and Leino. BIG difference.

And, even then, I don't think Giroux should be breaking the bank this time around either... Holmgren should take advantage of his RFA status to keep his salary in check.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:15 PM
  #114
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,414
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Yeah, he lost me there.

Nodl (0.80) - Richards (5.75) - Giroux (3.50)
Hartnell (4.20) - Briere (6.50) - Leino (3.00)
vanRiemsdyk (1.65) - Carter (5.75) - Wellwood (0.58)
Powe (0.80) - Betts (0.70) - Carcillo (1.00)
Shelley (1.10)

Pronger (4.92) - Carle (3.44)
Timonen (6.33) - Coburn (3.20)
Meszaros (4.00) - Gustafsson (0.90)
Bartulis (0.60)

Bobrovsky (1.75)
Leighton (1.55)

Assuming Walker is waived, that's 62.02m spent on a realistic best case scenario (Carter - 5.75, Giroux - 3.50, and Leino 3.00).

We're still a bit over.
Keep Walker, trade Carle. Save 1.7M

Or waive Walker, trade Carle and sign a player a la O'Donnell for 1M and save 2.4M.

Snotbubbles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:16 PM
  #115
Flyskippy
Registered User
 
Flyskippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Audubon, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 1,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Sometimes the sum of the parts are greater than the whole. If you get a solid return for Carter and keep Leino on the LBH line it brings some cap relief and futures back to the organization to rebuild the farm system. I am not moving Carter until after the seaon but it is certainly something to consider, especially if Carter blows in the playoffs again.

Flyskippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:17 PM
  #116
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Depends what he does this season, but if he continues to play like he has it would be worth it. This is off-season decisions so obviously things could change between now and then, but up to this point Leino has been more valuable than Carter.
No matter what Leino does this year, he will not be more valuable than Jeff Carter. He will not kill penalties. He will not be playing center. He will not suddenly become younger than Carter.

And, he won't be our best ES scorer... which Carter has been for some time now.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:21 PM
  #117
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,414
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Big difference between Giroux and Leino. BIG difference.

And, even then, I don't think Giroux should be breaking the bank this time around either... Holmgren should take advantage of his RFA status to keep his salary in check.
This is Holmgren we're talking about.

He threw 5M a year at Jeff Carter who up to that point had averaged about .6 pts/gm and had 11pts in 23 playoff games. Giroux is averaging about .6 pts/gm and has 26pts in 29 playoff games. How much will he get?

Snotbubbles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:24 PM
  #118
Cartsiephan*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Leino has been a nice player (since the playoffs) for us. But he's somewhat one-dimensional, and you can find other guys out there that will replace the majority of his contribution (if not all of it) for a not so steep price.

If Leino holds out for a big contract, you walk away.
On this team Jeff Carter could also be a bit one-dimensional and be overpaying for a position which they already have centers producing and which the coach has decided to move Carter to wing while Giroux is at center.

Cartsiephan* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:24 PM
  #119
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
This is Holmgren we're talking about.

He threw 5M a year at Jeff Carter who up to that point had averaged about .6 pts/gm and had 11pts in 23 playoff games. Giroux is averaging about .6 pts/gm and has 26pts in 29 playoff games. How much will he get?
3 years ago was a different animal as far as RFAs went. Still really in the shadow of the Vanek offer sheet then.

I'll also note that Jeff Carter has one of the rarest of abilities in the NHL: raw goal scoring ability. Giroux is going to get points -- wouldn't be shocked to see him get more points than Carter on a regular basis -- but Carter will almost certainly pot more goals than Giroux. Similar to the thing between Carter and Richards.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:24 PM
  #120
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,871
vCash: 500
Scoring so far

Giroux - 1.00 PPG
Carter - 0.92 PPG
Richards - 0.83 PPG
Leino - 0.83 PPG
Briere - 0.72 PPG
Hartnell - 0.67 PPG
Powe - 0.42 PPG
Betts - 0.42 PPG
Nodl - 0.40 PPG
vanRiemsdyk - 0.33 PPG
Zherdev - 0.20 PPG
Carcillo - 0.11 PPG
Shelley - 0.00 PPG

Timonen - 0.42 PPG
Pronger - 0.40 PPG
Carle - 0.33 PPG
Meszaros - 0.18 PPG
Coburn - 0.17 PPG
O'Donnell - 0.00 PPG
Bartulis - 0.00 PPG

CS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:26 PM
  #121
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,414
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
3 years ago was a different animal as far as RFAs went. Still really in the shadow of the Vanek offer sheet then.
So in you opinion, what would you pay Carter, a RFA and Giroux, a RFA.

Snotbubbles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:28 PM
  #122
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
On this team Jeff Carter could also be a bit one-dimensional and be overpaying for a position which they already have centers producing and which the coach has decided to move Carter to wing while Giroux is at center.
I'm sorry, you SERIOUSLY need to get some *ing objectivity.

Jeff Carter can:

1) Score goals.
2) Play effective defense.
3) Win faceoffs.
4) Play the PP.
5) Play the PK.
6) Has been this teams best ES player for three years now.

Oh, and right now he's been playing two positions for this team.

One-dimensional my ass. He may not necessarily do all those things at any given one time, but he CAN do all those things effectively.

You seriously need to stop taking viagara for your hard on of hate for Carter.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:29 PM
  #123
Cartsiephan*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No matter what Leino does this year, he will not be more valuable than Jeff Carter. He will not kill penalties. He will not be playing center. He will not suddenly become younger than Carter.

And, he won't be our best ES scorer... which Carter has been for some time now.
Jester, when Jeff Carter does not produce in the playoffs again and Ville Leino is off in Detroit being a playoff producer it will be wonderful that we paid so much for so little. The LBH line is the best even strength producing line, they occupy offensive zone time, cycle the puck down low, create offense and good line changes and will also create PP chances due to d-men not able to make line changes and havign to extend their shifts.

Whereas we can watch Carter rip down the wing, shoot the puck from bad angles, miss the net and create a rush up the weakside wing which means Carter needs to be defensively proficient to be able to survive in this league.

Cartsiephan* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:31 PM
  #124
Cartsiephan*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I'm sorry, you SERIOUSLY need to get some *ing objectivity.

Jeff Carter can:

1) Score goals.
2) Play effective defense.
3) Win faceoffs.
4) Play the PP.
5) Play the PK.
6) Has been this teams best ES player for three years now.

Oh, and right now he's been playing two positions for this team.

One-dimensional my ass. He may not necessarily do all those things at any given one time, but he CAN do all those things effectively.

You seriously need to stop taking viagara for your hard on of hate for Carter.
Giroux is more valuable IMO. Not saying Carter is not valauble, just that his value may be best suited on the trading block with the depth down the middle on this roster.

Cartsiephan* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2010, 03:33 PM
  #125
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
So in you opinion, what would you pay Carter, a RFA and Giroux, a RFA.
I think they try and get Giroux for 3 years at like 9M, maybe slightly over. You do not give him a 4 year contract no matter what (UFA at the end of it). If he wants more than that, maybe you need to talk about a longer contract. But this team needs stop tying itself into lots of really long-term contracts. A 2 year deal for Giroux is also something to explore, as then he'd expire at the same time as Hartnell, Coburn, and Carle (in that case 5-6M total).

Carter I think should come in around 4-5 years 6M per.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:54 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.