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The whole "New York fans are too impatient to rebuild" thing

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Old
11-05-2010, 05:28 PM
  #51
Leetch3
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don't want to get too far off topic but one of the biggest reasons why we need a rebuild after 98 is because the rangers ended up with hot garbage in the 1st round between alex kovalev in 91 and marc staal in 05 and then went ahead and traded away the young talent they had in amonte, weight, marchant, norstrom, etc...

some of those trades led to the cup so we can't complain, but imo the ONLY reason a team would ever be forced to choice between a total rebuild and building thru free agents is if you've done a horrible job over an extended period of time and let your system become a barren wasteland...

if the team does a reasonable job in scouting, drafting, development, etc year after year then you will never get to that point cause you'll always have kids in the pipeline to provide reinforcements and then the whole arguement becomes moot

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11-05-2010, 06:04 PM
  #52
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To assess the situation fairly, you have to take your opinion and frame of mind out of the equation. Would we, the hf ranger fans, go along with a rebuild? Of course. We spend how many hours debating the worth of White, the 49th and 50th prospects in the system, praise scouts, critique trainers... we're here no matter what.

But the Rangers aren't out for our business. They can do virtually anything to that team and we're still at the games or watching on TV. They are out to fill the lower bowl with businessmen using company season tickets. They want luxury boxes purchased by big businesses that use the team for schmoozing and entertaining. They want the guy that isn't a Ranger fan. Did Cap fans like the rebuild? Well now they appreciate it but when they sucked the fans weren't shaking the glass with enthusiasm over their future.

This is the city with the most valuable land per squar foot. Everything is expensive, everything is at a premium price. To get the most out of this team, there must be a draw to the casual fan and probably beyond that. That means names on the back of the sweater, not personal favorites and overachieving feel good stories. Without a Jagr, Gaborik or Lindros, it's tough to make the money. In NYC, a dollar not earned is a dollar lost.

Now would the Rangers be in danger of moving if a rebuild took a while? Of course not. But an extended period of losing, fans start getting restless, writers start blaming and heads roll. I know we lost 7 straight years, but there was at least some form of hope at the start of almost every one of those seasons. There were first place teams heading into December. There were big pushes at the trade deadline. There was always a glimmer of hope to satiate the masses. The city could handle a rebuild, but no GM would survive the process.

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11-05-2010, 07:37 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Those guys replaced other crappy vets though, youth wasn't really ready for top minutes. We had to field a team and I'm guessing that was the most cost effective way to go.
If you are rebuilding you do not sign a large number of top UFAs. They tried to sign Recchi too. Seems like an odd and idiotic strategy to get a top pick. Of course you need vets on any team, just not top ones.

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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
I mean, you have to have players, couldn't leave Richter/Graves/Leetch out to dry, right ?
No, though perhaps they should have traded them all. They all were leaving their prime at the time. Might have been good for a top pick in '00 or '01. That is a whole different discussion though.

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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Either way, we were still in position to get the next young wave of players if we would've stayed away from any big moves after 2001. '02 thru '05 would've at least come close to landing those drafts top talents.
Please, dont even start me on Sather and his missed opportunities. I still maintain that the biggest mistake (or at least missed opportunity) this organization has had in a long time was Sather not gutting the team in '03.

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11-06-2010, 12:10 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
To assess the situation fairly, you have to take your opinion and frame of mind out of the equation. Would we, the hf ranger fans, go along with a rebuild? Of course. We spend how many hours debating the worth of White, the 49th and 50th prospects in the system, praise scouts, critique trainers... we're here no matter what.

But the Rangers aren't out for our business. They can do virtually anything to that team and we're still at the games or watching on TV. They are out to fill the lower bowl with businessmen using company season tickets. They want luxury boxes purchased by big businesses that use the team for schmoozing and entertaining. They want the guy that isn't a Ranger fan. Did Cap fans like the rebuild? Well now they appreciate it but when they sucked the fans weren't shaking the glass with enthusiasm over their future.

This is the city with the most valuable land per squar foot. Everything is expensive, everything is at a premium price. To get the most out of this team, there must be a draw to the casual fan and probably beyond that. That means names on the back of the sweater, not personal favorites and overachieving feel good stories. Without a Jagr, Gaborik or Lindros, it's tough to make the money. In NYC, a dollar not earned is a dollar lost.

Now would the Rangers be in danger of moving if a rebuild took a while? Of course not. But an extended period of losing, fans start getting restless, writers start blaming and heads roll. I know we lost 7 straight years, but there was at least some form of hope at the start of almost every one of those seasons. There were first place teams heading into December. There were big pushes at the trade deadline. There was always a glimmer of hope to satiate the masses. The city could handle a rebuild, but no GM would survive the process.
Exactly. There's a limit to how far current ownership is willing go--as long as money is being made from ticket sales and advertising, they will tolerate "rebuilding". If rebuilding with homegrown talent leads to teams in contention in the near future, they will congratulate themselves on building a team the right way (and raise ticket prices). However, attendence is already down this season and if it continues to go down and stays down without big names and buzz from winning sooner, rather than later? That's a question that really hasn't been answered.

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11-06-2010, 03:33 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I personally cant believe that Sather is getting the benefit of the doubt.

Given his track record, its WAY too early to determine if these kids are getting a shot because its a shot because of a change in organizational philosophy or just simply because Sather has no cap space, cant sign whatever free agent is out there, and thus has no choice.
I'm sure there are/were plenty of deals we could've made that yielded fair return of older players. For instance, say we decided to trade Anisimov last season, it's not as if it'd be that difficult to have buried Redden then.

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11-06-2010, 07:39 AM
  #56
Leetch3
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Either way, we were still in position to get the next young wave of players if we would've stayed away from any big moves after 2001. '02 thru '05 would've at least come close to landing those drafts top talents.
thats probably true and a top pick greatly increases our chances...but playing devils advocate, the flipside argument is that since the rangers have traditionally blown at drafting would those higher picks have mattered?

our highest picks in recent years...2004 #6 montoya (garbage), 1999 #4 brendl (garbage), 1998 #7 malhotra (garbage)...that combined with all the countless guys picked after we drafted doesn't give me confidence that we would have gotten those franchise players. we both know we'd end up with the top pick for the next daigle lol

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11-06-2010, 08:28 AM
  #57
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I honestly believe we are on a good course right now, and that with the right move or 2, a little luck and our current trajectory of development, we could seriously contend within 2-3 years.

A lot of "ifs" yes, but it aint easy so...

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11-06-2010, 08:29 AM
  #58
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Or you get snake bit with Cheripanov.

There's no surefire way to build a contender. You can draft, but as we've seen here its a crap shot. Atlanta wasted a pick with Stefan. They nailed it with Heatley and Kovalchuk but there's something about bringing those guys up in a losing environment. Kovalchkuk has no idea how to win. They've been in consistently better position to draft than us for over a decade. We're essentially in the same spot right now except we've had some success and playoff appearances while they've lost and have seen guys leave year after year.

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11-06-2010, 08:50 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
I'm sure there are/were plenty of deals we could've made that yielded fair return of older players. For instance, say we decided to trade Anisimov last season, it's not as if it'd be that difficult to have buried Redden then.
I dont understand your logic - Anisimov makes, what, 800K? And we'd probably be taking on more salary if it was for an "older player."

Besides, when has Sather traded a legitimate prospect for an older player in the last 6 years or so?

I still think he'd let some of the younger players develop/fill holes/etc, but theres no doubt in my mind if he had the cap space he would have went right back to the free agent buffet.

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11-06-2010, 09:04 AM
  #60
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This whole thing about NYers being impatient is a stereotype and a sweeping generalization. Any real Ranger fan would have been fine with stinking in the late 90s/early 200s if it meant getting top draft picks. The mentality I remember was "They're not gonna win the Cup this year...may as well let some kids get experience"

When they had Pascal Rheame and Billy Tibbets in the lineup...that was a slap in the face.

You CAN rebuild in NY, you just have to be very honest with the fan base. Have a five year plan, communicate with the fanbase, let them know what the intention is and speak of rewards, and get guys who have a Ryan Callahan work ethic, and that is all NYers really want, guys who hustle and give two hoots. Just because NY has the most money, doesn't mean it needs to all be spent. Spend it wisely; on the right kind of free agents and on scouting and prospect development. On one episode of Blueshirt Banter they naield it perfectly; that the Rangers have the money and resources so there should be a scout in every barn, cave, and castle in Europe. Maybe Horak is one of those guys they found this way.

The Rangers are on the right track now; they're a team. I've really enjoyed how they've played this season and have been more than satisfied with the expanded role of the youth, Sauer playing more, and the NHL debuts of Stepan and Grachev and maybe eventually some combo of MZA/Weise/McD/Valentenko.

Keep adding about 2-3 permanent young guys every year, keep the core intact, and when they're really contending, only then do something to put them over the top. They're not there yet but on the right track.

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11-06-2010, 10:10 AM
  #61
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The facts about the soon expiring CBA and state of the Rangers payroll have been laid out in full detail by several posters.

Salary cap + little to no cap space + expiring CBA + important RFA's needing pay increases = NO Richards, NO Lecavalier, NO "top 4 free agent defenseman".

Sorry, that's the reality of the situation.

A list of players has been laid out several times, players that were drafted or brought in and made their NHL debut with the Rangers post-lock out, that are either currently on the roster or were at one point and just didn't pan out. Some can't see that the team had been rebuilding its system. And its actually paying off now.

Dubinsky, Callahan, Staal, Girardi, Del Zotto, Anisimov, Stepan, Grachev, Gilroy, Sauer, Lundqvist.

That's 11 homegrown players currently on the NHL roster.

Add to it Boyle and Prust who are still young (although not from the Rangers system).

And that's only this year. There were many failed attempts post-lockout that were promoted to the NHL team.

Not mentioned often is that the Jagr/Gomez era, too, had some teams full of young players.

Prucha, Moore, Ortmeyer, Betts, Ward, Immonen, Hollweg, Tyutin, Pock, Lisin, Hossa, Korpikoski, Byers, Sanguinetti, and others.

We are talking about 5 years. That's a lot of young players getting a chance.

Again, a rebuild of a system from scratch (ours was completely barren after the 2004 season) takes time, the talent we are starting to see are the guys actually worth keeping. Guys drafted the year after the lockout are now emerging as leaders on the NHL roster.

And no, I don't think "virtually all of our prospects will make it". I think a select few will, to be added to the NHL roster already full of them.

Kreider, Werek, McDonagh, McIlrath, Hagelin.

Those are the players in the system that I think will make it and stick long term.

I am not as high on a lot of them. But have hope some of them can make it.

That's far from every prospect.

And if you don't think Kreider will be on the NHL roster next year, you're fooling your self.

And The Rangers, even without Gaborik in the lineup, a team full of young homegrown talent without its elite NHL scorer is right in the thick of the NHL standings. But that's not tangible proof that these young guys are solid talent?

The Rangers are not signing any veteran free agents to huge long term contracts. They're just not. They can't. Its not financially feasible.

Redden's contract comes back in the summer, we still have Drury (full NMC), and Rozsival on the books, too, for next year.

Dubinsky(currently tied for NHL lead in goals), Callahan, Anisimov are RFA and need to be re-signed. Del Zotto is up next, soon.

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11-06-2010, 10:25 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I dont understand your logic - Anisimov makes, what, 800K? And we'd probably be taking on more salary if it was for an "older player."

Besides, when has Sather traded a legitimate prospect for an older player in the last 6 years or so?

I still think he'd let some of the younger players develop/fill holes/etc, but theres no doubt in my mind if he had the cap space he would have went right back to the free agent buffet.
But the point is that there is now a salary cap, and there will probably always be a salary cap.

There is no financial way to go big into the free agent market every year. The salary cap won't allow it. And with the way the world economy is, the CBA expiring, if there's no work stoppage, the cap could realistically go down.

The Rangers are building their team from within. Its just the way things are done properly in the NHL now.

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11-06-2010, 10:27 AM
  #63
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The league went through a dramatic change after the lockout.

Its taking the GMs time to fully grasp and navigate the salary cap and CBA.

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11-06-2010, 10:28 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
And if you don't think Kreider will be on the NHL roster next year, you're fooling your self.

.
Lets bookmark this, because I would love to make a wager with you on this one.

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11-06-2010, 10:29 AM
  #65
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But the point is that there is now a salary cap, and there will probably always be a salary cap.

There is no financial way to go big into the free agent market every year. The salary cap won't allow it. And with the way the world economy is, the CBA expiring, if there's no work stoppage, the cap could realistically go down.

The Rangers are building their team from within. Its just the way things are done properly in the NHL now.
Thats fine - a super-generic response - but fine.

But its obvious that an almost completely homegrown team is what you want.

The reality of the situation is that some legitimate free agent top end talent is going to have to be added to make this squad true contenders.

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11-06-2010, 10:51 AM
  #66
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so to get me up to speed on injuries

Gaborik targeting next Sunday vs Oilers?

Dru and Prospal. How far are they?

Looking forward to the full lineup

Stepan and Grachev need to help the pack and White needs to go down for cap space

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