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JVR healthy scratch Saturday ?

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Old
11-06-2010, 08:54 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELab2 View Post
Could you cite some examples? It's been my belief that you either have it or you don't. To be a true power forward takes a desire to put a hurting on the other team, the desire to want to put guys through the boards, and pound defenders in front of the net. And I haven't seen many large players come into this league as pure skill guys, to whom physicality was an after thought, and develop the mean streak required to be a powerforward.
Depends on your definition of a power forward. In today's NHL, power forwards aren't what they were in the old days, agreed? If you're going by what a power forward was 15-20 years ago, then simply put, there are no more power forwards.

How long did it take Todd Bertuzzi to "get it"? How long did it take John LeClaire to "get it"? What about Franzen?

Is JVR ever going to be the physical force that Cam Neely was (THAT'S a true power forward)? Of course not. Will he ever be an elite "power forward" in most peoples' eyes (Is Jarome Iginla still an elite PF?)? Probably not. But as he gets older, he will learn to use his body more, and learn where to go (and when to go there) to score goals...and he will learn to arrive at these areas in ill humor (for goodness sakes, he's still a freakin' kid).

JVR isn't ever going to be the kind of player that, say, Chris Stewart is right now, as far as physicality. Anyone expecting something like that is going to be greatly disappointed.

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11-06-2010, 09:01 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
Depends on your definition of a power forward. In today's NHL, power forwards aren't what they were in the old days, agreed? If you're going by what a power forward was 15-20 years ago, then simply put, there are no more power forwards.

How long did it take Todd Bertuzzi to "get it"? How long did it take John LeClaire to "get it"? What about Franzen?

Is JVR ever going to be the physical force that Cam Neely was (THAT'S a true power forward)? Of course not. Will he ever be an elite "power forward" in most peoples' eyes (Is Jarome Iginla still an elite PF?)? Probably not. But as he gets older, he will learn to use his body more, and learn where to go (and when to go there) to score goals...and he will learn to arrive at these areas in ill humor (for goodness sakes, he's still a freakin' kid).

JVR isn't ever going to be the kind of player that, say, Chris Stewart is right now, as far as physicality. Anyone expecting something like that is going to be greatly disappointed.
To get to someone with a skillset more like JVR's, just look at Lecavalier. It took him five seasons to become a consistent 65+ point guy (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=26809) and he was drafted first overall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 04' hockey View Post
STOP the "KID" talk, he's 21!

AND

the 2nd overall pick

He's the youngest skater on the team that wasn't called up from the Phantoms last week. He's the kid of the group.

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Old
11-06-2010, 09:23 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
To get to someone with a skillset more like JVR's, just look at Lecavalier. It took him five seasons to become a consistent 65+ point guy (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=26809) and he was drafted first overall.
Yup.

Most scouts I've ever talked to tell me that bigger guys take longer to develop, whether someone wants to label them a "power forward" or not. It takes time for most kids JVR's age to learn how to use their frame to be more physical in the dirty areas. Your Lecavalier example is pretty damn good.

The kid is 21. People need to cut him some slack. There haven't been many players in the history of the game who had the physical part (or the mental part) all figured out at his age.

He will get stronger, he will continue to develop, he will gain more experience...and he will become a very strong offensive force. Whether or not he's going to meet any particular persons definition of what a true power forward is? That's pretty irrelevant to me, as long as he helps put the puck in the net.

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11-06-2010, 09:27 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
Yup.

Most scouts I've ever talked to tell me that bigger guys take longer to develop, whether someone wants to label them a "power forward" or not. It takes time for most kids JVR's age to learn how to use their frame to be more physical in the dirty areas. Your Lecavalier example is pretty damn good.

The kid is 21. People need to cut him some slack. There haven't been many players in the history of the game who had the physical part (or the mental part) all figured out at his age.

He will get stronger, he will continue to develop, he will gain more experience...and he will become a very strong offensive force. Whether or not he's going to meet any particular persons definition of what a true power forward is? That's pretty irrelevant to me, as long as he helps put the puck in the net.
Lecavalier's 2nd season: 25 goals, 67 points


I don't see the comparison

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11-06-2010, 09:43 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Lecavalier's 2nd season: 25 goals, 67 points


I don't see the comparison
The poster who pointed out Lecavalier as an example stated that he wasn't a consistent 65+ scorer until his 5th year in the league.

Yea, Vinny had 67 points in his 2nd season, at the age of 19. Know how many he had in his 4th season, at the age of 21? Hint: It's alot less than 67.

Again, I will reiterate in case you missed it: It takes time for players at JVR's age to figure out the physical part of the game on any kind of consistent basis. It takes experience to figure out where to go on the ice (and when to go there), and how to arrive in ill humor to score the tough goals.

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11-06-2010, 11:28 PM
  #81
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The Flyers benefit from a line-up that hasn't had to rush JvR through the system, and now the good play of Nodl and Wellwood also gives Laviolette and Holmgren some options up and down the roster. It's such a shame that the farm team is a black hole right now, thought it would really be a shot at the kid if he were sent down. I mean, he played in the SC finals just a few months ago. I'm not saying they shouldn't, but give him some time in the pressbox to relearn that ice time - like clowns at a birthday party - is earned.

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11-07-2010, 09:32 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Lecavalier's 2nd season: 25 goals, 67 points


I don't see the comparison
The season he had 67, the next highest scorer on the Lightning had 48 points. I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest he got a lot more ice time than JvR could dream of getting on this Flyers team. But as Shadow Flyer said, the point was it took him five years to become a consistent scorer. Patience, young grasshopper.

If you want to bring it closer to home, take a look at Carter. 42, 37, 53 points in his first three years before the breakout year. Lanky tall guys take time.

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11-07-2010, 09:44 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
The poster who pointed out Lecavalier as an example stated that he wasn't a consistent 65+ scorer until his 5th year in the league.

Yea, Vinny had 67 points in his 2nd season, at the age of 19. Know how many he had in his 4th season, at the age of 21? Hint: It's alot less than 67.

Again, I will reiterate in case you missed it: It takes time for players at JVR's age to figure out the physical part of the game on any kind of consistent basis. It takes experience to figure out where to go on the ice (and when to go there), and how to arrive in ill humor to score the tough goals.
It is also simply harder for young players that require strength/power to be effective to compete at this level until they develop that strength/power... and when you're 20/21 competing against 30 y/o guys, you're giving away a bit of strength/power at first.

Most people ain't Lindros.


Last edited by Jester: 11-07-2010 at 10:00 AM.
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11-07-2010, 09:57 AM
  #84
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Yeah it takes big guys awhile to get used to their strength at this level

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11-07-2010, 10:32 AM
  #85
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I still don't get the AHL talk, I mean, JVR hasn't been awesome, but he hasn't been hurting us, he's done okay, just not great.

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11-07-2010, 10:34 AM
  #86
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Yeah he has been cycling well, just no finish or creativity

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11-07-2010, 10:48 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Yeah he has been cycling well, just no finish or creativity
Giroux's dangles emasculated him?

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11-07-2010, 11:00 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Yeah he has been cycling well, just no finish or creativity
I wouldn't even say that, I mean, he's had some nice setups, Giroux blew a few earlier in the season, so he could conceivably have 6 or 7 assists.

The biggest thing like you mentioned is the finish. It's not even just that he's not scoring, it's that he's not getting into position to score, just got to go into the dirty areas and get some scrappy chances and goals.

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11-07-2010, 11:04 AM
  #89
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I dont even mean creativity as in passing, I just mean in general. he does the same thing every time

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11-07-2010, 11:09 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
I dont even mean creativity as in passing, I just mean in general. he does the same thing every time
A lot of that has to do with confidence. I think he'll start taking more chances once he finally finds his groove.

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11-07-2010, 11:10 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
I dont even mean creativity as in passing, I just mean in general. he does the same thing every time
Yeah I do agree with that, particularly on the rush although as Norm MacDonald points out, some of that probably has to do with confidence.

Didn't know Norm was a hockey fan.

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11-07-2010, 11:52 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
The kid is 21. People need to cut him some slack. There haven't been many players in the history of the game who had the physical part (or the mental part) all figured out at his age.
look at all the number 2 picks over the last 10 years or so. they were all contributing well beyond JVR at this point, many of them under the age of 21.

and who doesn't think he's soft?

really thought he would have shown us something early this season, but he has not impressed.

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11-07-2010, 11:57 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by MickeyMelchiondo View Post
look at all the number 2 picks over the last 10 years or so. they were all contributing well beyond JVR at this point, many of them under the age of 21.

and who doesn't think he's soft?

really thought he would have shown us something early this season, but he has not impressed.
It was a known fact that it was a very weak draft outside of Kane... in other years, JVR would not have been anywhere near the no. 2 pick. That's not his fault.

I mean, some good players have come out of there, but would you rather have Kyle Turris? Hickey hasn't played a game yet.

We picked the wrong year to suck.

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11-07-2010, 04:16 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by MickeyMelchiondo View Post
look at all the number 2 picks over the last 10 years or so. they were all contributing well beyond JVR at this point, many of them under the age of 21.
JVR hasn't been asked to contribute much at this point. He hasn't been asked to come in and be a savior, nor is he getting (nor should he get) the kind of ice time to contribute as most of those players you allude to. In reality, this is great for the longterm development of JVR, but yea, no one likes to think "longterm" development around these parts. He's not a PPG player at 21, so let's rag all over the kid, since there's nothing better to do right now with the team winning games and all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MickeyMelchiondo View Post
really thought he would have shown us something early this season, but he has not impressed.
Yea, I agree with you here. I'm a tad bit disappointed in the way the early part of the season has gone for him, but what exactly should we do? Lavi is sitting him in the press box and hopefully the lightbulb goes on, but he's gonna "get it" when he gets it. That's why it's called "development".

The Flyers are not a team that needs JVR to be spectacular at this point, and for that we're lucky. We can afford to be patient with the kid, but apparently patience is in short supply on these boards.

Just because JVR can legally drink does not make him a man as of yet. Just sayin'.

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11-07-2010, 04:29 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
It was a known fact that it was a very weak draft outside of Kane... in other years, JVR would not have been anywhere near the no. 2 pick. That's not his fault.

I mean, some good players have come out of there, but would you rather have Kyle Turris? Hickey hasn't played a game yet.

We picked the wrong year to suck.
wrong year to lose another rigged lottery.

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11-07-2010, 04:52 PM
  #96
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Everyone is going to panic with JVR untill he pulls off his Carter like season, in which case all the haters will slowly dissapear.

JVR is having a rough time at the moment. Trouble is, he's not even getting chances, which is very worrying. Hopefully benching him, will have him re-evaluate what exactly he is doing wrong. Personally i think he is trying to forecheck too much, looking to turn over the puck too much, instead of finding the space he was so adept at in the first 20 games last year.

He needs to go back to the simple hockey that got him here in the first place, and not try to run around like darroll powe out there. He's got too much talent for it.

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11-07-2010, 06:32 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Everyone is going to panic with JVR untill he pulls off his Carter like season, in which case all the haters will slowly dissapear.

JVR is having a rough time at the moment. Trouble is, he's not even getting chances, which is very worrying. Hopefully benching him, will have him re-evaluate what exactly he is doing wrong. Personally i think he is trying to forecheck too much, looking to turn over the puck too much, instead of finding the space he was so adept at in the first 20 games last year.

He needs to go back to the simple hockey that got him here in the first place, and not try to run around like darroll powe out there. He's got too much talent for it.
The haters haven't disappeared for Carter, still.

Haters are gonna hate no matter how good the player becomes.

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11-07-2010, 10:15 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
The haters haven't disappeared for Carter, still.

Haters are gonna hate no matter how good the player becomes.
This.

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11-07-2010, 11:12 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
I dont even mean creativity as in passing, I just mean in general. he does the same thing every time
sounds like someone on this team that has scored quite a few goals in this league

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