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Mark Howe or Scott Niedermayer

View Poll Results: Who was better ??
Mark Howe 38 56.72%
Scott Niedermayer 29 43.28%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-06-2010, 09:01 AM
  #1
John Flyers Fan
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Mark Howe or Scott Niedermayer

One way overdue for HHoF induction, one considered to be a possible first-ballot selection.

Both played very similar styles, among the very best skaters of their era, not overly physical, very intelligent, played in all situations, excellent two-way defenseman.

Niedermayer did a lot more winning, where Howe's teams often came up just short. Howe was often his teams best skater, while Niedermayer only spent 2 or 3 years as his teams unquestioned #1 defenseman.

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11-06-2010, 10:56 AM
  #2
Big Phil
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I know you are a big Flyers fan John Flyers, but I have to side with Niedermayer on this one. Howe truly is a guy who should have gotten in by now, but while I hate how Niedermayer gets overrated at times, the truth is he was an excellent defenseman and should be recognized as such.

I don't think it should ever be underrated how winning followed this guy around like a bad cold. Lets not forget how important he was to those championships as well. It isn't as if Niedermayer was along for the ride. And if you want to penalize him for not being the best defenseman on his team for several years then that's your right, but the guy ahead of him was Scott Stevens.

Both Howe and Niedermayer have three first team all-stars. Nieds has another 2nd team all-star. Nieds won the Norris as well as a very controversial Conn Smythe (although he still played well in 2007). We saw how he did when he left NJ, and this is probably what I am most impressed with about his career.

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11-06-2010, 01:17 PM
  #3
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Howe didn't make junior level mistakes like Niedermayer was prone to.
They are similar in a lot of ways but I will go with Howe and it is a fairly easy decision.

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11-06-2010, 01:45 PM
  #4
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I say Howe easily as well. Both played most of their careers on very strong teams, but Howe made his teams strong.

What I can't get over is that Howe took his team's GF:GA ratio from 0.96 when he was off the ice, to 1.46 when he was on the ice. That would be a very strong season, but he averaged this rate of improvement over a 16-year career that took him up to age 39.

Niedermayer's teams were dominant with and without him on the ice. 1.21 without, 1.24 with.

Niedermayer won the Smythe, but can you claim he was actually a more dominant postseason performer? Howe was the unquestioned best player on a team that lost two Finals to the dynasty Oilers. Niedermayer's Smythe could have gone to one of four Ducks, or even Alfredsson if not for his brainfart.

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11-06-2010, 02:56 PM
  #5
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I like Niedermayer and believe there is more to him than his statistics because winning seemed to follow him around so much.

If I'm picking one or the other for my team though, I'd pick Mark Howe any day.

He is close offensively and better defensively than Niedermayer.

I often wonder if Niedermayer could have been a Brian Leetch if he hadn't been held back so much early in his career. Although, maybe he would never have become as solid in his own end if he wasn't reined in.

In any case its Howe for me.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 11-06-2010 at 07:25 PM.
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Old
11-06-2010, 03:05 PM
  #6
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I think it is very close but in the end it is Mark Howe who is better.

Both had great careers were important to their teams however one thing I will say is this. Not knocking Niedermayer as it is not his fault that he played on some good teams but How many times was Niedermayer the main defenceman on his team. I mean he played on the Devils where he was a second pairing defenceman behind Scott Stevens. In Ananheim when they won their cup Pronger was arguably the big name defenceman on the team.

Now would Mark Howe be second fiddle to these guys maybe. But when Philadelphia went to the Finals twice against the Oilers he was their main defenceman. Played alot of his minutes against the best players on the opposition. ctually throughout his career this was so.

This is the reason why I pick Howe. Might not be fair but that is why I have to pick Howe over Niedermayer

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11-06-2010, 04:09 PM
  #7
vadim sharifijanov
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this is extremely tough. i will hold off on voting before hearing more arguments.

my first instinct is to say howe for peak and, as seventies noted above, for being the man on his teams. but thinking about that for a second, it seems to discount niedermayer's '03 playoffs and arguably norris season. niedermayer took the reins from stevens and the team didn't miss a beat. that's huge for his legacy and might excuse his late peak. if he weren't "sheltered" behind stevens, who knows what his career might have looked like.

regular season-wise, it's reasonably close but i think howe has the edge. howe has the three norris runner-ups to incredible competition: langway having one of the greatest defensive peaks ever, coffey in his orr's goals record-breaking season, and bourque who was not only having one of the greatest primes since orr but who was considered way overdue for a norris. niedermayer won his norris when lidstrom was having a really off-year by the standards of his 6 norrises in 7 years. niedermayer's two norris runner-ups are impressive, but the guys pushing him don't compare to the guys pushing howe: bourque, coffey, macinnis just hitting his prime, one last great robinson season. guys like doug wilson, larry murphy, gary suter, post-prime potvin, that's more comparable to niedermayer's competition after lidstrom. and those guys didn't get a sniff of the norris the years howe was up for it. if we exclude howe's WHA years, then niedermayer probably makes up a lot of the difference in peak years with more years as a solid, if unspectacular, contributor (mostly before he hits his prime).

i'd like to hear an argument for niedermayer's '98 second team all-star selection though. to my eyes, it looks like just a weak year for d-men. bourque was in a two year slump, macinnis was between his two primes, leetch had fallen offensively, chelios was declining... who is going to take that fourth all-star team spot from niedermayer? desjardins or ozolinsh? i don't think you can call this season an accomplishment in a discussion against howe, who had much better years where he wasn't an all-star due to higher competition.

in the playoffs, i have to go with niedermayer. if we discount his '06 smythe, we probably have to consider that he is the most deserving player in '03 after giguere having one of the greatest post-seasons i've ever seen. was howe ever at that level? i honestly don't know the answer to that, having not seen much of him in the playoffs before the year they lost to the habs. but even as the best non-goalie of those flyers teams that went to the finals twice and almost again in '89, it doesn't look like he ever put in a year like niedermayer in '03. with his skating and outlets, scotty almost single-handedly beat babcock and the ducks' defensive system. and, for a personal perspective, that finals was boring as hell; i don't think i would have kept watching it if it wasn't such a joy to watch niedermayer carry the puck.

niedermayer had a great junior, WJC, and international career. howe has two avco cups. not sure how to weigh "extra-curriculars."

honestly, i don't know who to go with. my gut usually tells me to go with peak or winning, but they go opposite directions in this case and individual accomplishments are pretty close to a wash.

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11-06-2010, 04:33 PM
  #8
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Howe and quite easily. Howe was a phenominal player. If not running up against Coffey, Bourque and such he would have won 3 Norris's. He had great competition for best defenceman in his prime while Niedermeyer did not.

Howe was great in the WHA and that is totally discounted by almost everyone. On the Flyers he was the best player on a very, very successful regular season and playoff team that came up against the dynasty Oilers twice in the final.

Niedermeyer is a HHOFer but he is not near as good as Howe. Howe should clearly already be in the HHOF, it is ridculous that he is not.

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11-06-2010, 04:43 PM
  #9
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
Howe and quite easily. Howe was a phenominal player. If not running up against Coffey, Bourque and such he would have won 3 Norris's. He had great competition for best defenceman in his prime while Niedermeyer did not.
(clears throat) Lidstrom? Not to take anything away from Howe, but without Nik then you have Niedermayer winning two more Norrises.

Quote:
Howe was great in the WHA and that is totally discounted by almost everyone. On the Flyers he was the best player on a very, very successful regular season and playoff team that came up against the dynasty Oilers twice in the final.
That's fine he was good in the WHA, but it does little if anything for his resume. He wasn't going against the star players in the NHL. It's like saying Alexei Yashin is leading the KHL in scoring.

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Niedermeyer is a HHOFer but he is not near as good as Howe. Howe should clearly already be in the HHOF, it is ridculous that he is not.
See I don't get this. It isn't wrong to suggest that Howe is better than Niedermayer and I applaud the people who actually made a case for him with facts. But to say either one of them is not "near as good" as the other is wrong.

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11-06-2010, 05:21 PM
  #10
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See I don't get this. It isn't wrong to suggest that Howe is better than Niedermayer and I applaud the people who actually made a case for him with facts. But to say either one of them is not "near as good" as the other is wrong.
See I disagree. Howe in his prime, that I watched in Philly, for 3-5 years or so was like Bourque in Boston or Chelios in Chicago or Lidstrom in Detroit. He was the controlling force in most every game. He controlled the game and was the best player on his team. And Philly was a great team during that time, with two different goaltenders as well, so he was the best player on one of the best teams. Niedermeyer never, to me, was that kind of defenceman, a guy that dominating the game for several years. Niedermeyer was a great defenceman but he was not in my mind able to dominate and he was not as good defensively as Howe was and his offence was more exciting but not as consistent and not better offensively. Niedermeyer was not as good as Stevens or Pronger when they played together. He was not THE controlling player on his team and did not dictate the pace of the game like Howe could.

Howe to me is a clear top-tier defenceman for the HHOF. Niedermeyer is a 2nd tier HHOF defenceman. This is just my opinion of course.

McCrimmon is also criminally underrated as well from those Philly teams.

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11-06-2010, 06:22 PM
  #11
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Wow, this really is a tough one.

Howe, who gets underrated a lot for his time in the WHA and Neids, who, imo, gets overrated a lot.

Have to think on this one for sure.

I have an easier time picking Bourque over Lidstrom than deciding on these two.

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11-06-2010, 06:39 PM
  #12
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I say Howe easily as well. Both played most of their careers on very strong teams, but Howe made his teams strong.

What I can't get over is that Howe took his team's GF:GA ratio from 0.96 when he was off the ice, to 1.46 when he was on the ice. That would be a very strong season, but he averaged this rate of improvement over a 16-year career that took him up to age 39.

Niedermayer's teams were dominant with and without him on the ice. 1.21 without, 1.24 with.

Niedermayer won the Smythe, but can you claim he was actually a more dominant postseason performer? Howe was the unquestioned best player on a team that lost two Finals to the dynasty Oilers. Niedermayer's Smythe could have gone to one of four Ducks, or even Alfredsson if not for his brainfart.
Is there an archive of that ratio for each players or do you have to look it up one by one? I'd like see Thornton's and Crosby's.

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11-06-2010, 06:42 PM
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I say Howe easily as well. Both played most of their careers on very strong teams, but Howe made his teams strong.

What I can't get over is that Howe took his team's GF:GA ratio from 0.96 when he was off the ice, to 1.46 when he was on the ice. That would be a very strong season, but he averaged this rate of improvement over a 16-year career that took him up to age 39.

Niedermayer's teams were dominant with and without him on the ice. 1.21 without, 1.24 with.

Niedermayer won the Smythe, but can you claim he was actually a more dominant postseason performer? Howe was the unquestioned best player on a team that lost two Finals to the dynasty Oilers. Niedermayer's Smythe could have gone to one of four Ducks, or even Alfredsson if not for his brainfart.
What did Alfredsson do to earn the Conn Smythe? I'm not attacking your statement, I just have no idea. I feel like the Ducks dominated that series so much that any Senator winning it would have been crazy. I mean, I personally think Sami Pahlsson should have won but Niedermayer certainly was not a bad choice. Would the other four Ducks be Selanne, Getzlaf, Pahlsson and Giguere? Pronger was huge but they won when he was suspended twice I believe.

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11-06-2010, 06:48 PM
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Also while Pronger played very well in Anaheim (slipping in his Captain season but he was still very good and did return to form), I would have to argue that Niedermayer was the controlling force from the backend while in Anaheim. There were so many games that he would just take over and seemingly skate for the entire 20 minutes of a 3rd period to ensure a win. Never coming close to exhaustion. Niedermayer might be overrated, but at the same time I feel he isn't given the proper credit, especially for his seasons in Anaheim. He may be overrated for playing on good teams (NJ, ANA, Canada) but I feel his style of play is ignored when people look to combat his success. If that makes any sense which I feel it doesn't.

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11-06-2010, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
Is there an archive of that ratio for each players or do you have to look it up one by one? I'd like see Thornton's and Crosby's.
See here for the numbers for many prominent players.

When comparing Howe to Niedermayer using this method, it's important to remember that Niedermayer's off-ice numbers include a lot of Scott Stevens and Chris Pronger. Even so, Howe's plus-minus numbers are extremely impressive, and clearly better than Niedermayer's.

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11-06-2010, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
See here for the numbers for many prominent players.

When comparing Howe to Niedermayer using this method, it's important to remember that Niedermayer's off-ice numbers include a lot of Scott Stevens and Chris Pronger. Even so, Howe's plus-minus numbers are extremely impressive, and clearly better than Niedermayer's.
Understatement heh.
Howe's R-on/R-off numbers are also crazy good.

Settles it for me, edge Howe.

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11-06-2010, 07:18 PM
  #17
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
See here for the numbers for many prominent players.

When comparing Howe to Niedermayer using this method, it's important to remember that Niedermayer's off-ice numbers include a lot of Scott Stevens and Chris Pronger. Even so, Howe's plus-minus numbers are extremely impressive, and clearly better than Niedermayer's.
impressively, the howe/mccrimmon pairing had brad marsh and doug crossman behind them, so it's not like it was the big pairing and then guys who shouldn't have been in the league.

look at the flyers' +/- during howe's best GF:GA year-- http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/PHI/1986.html
always makes me shake my head how far howe and mccrimmon are from the rest of the team.

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11-06-2010, 07:29 PM
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See I disagree. Howe in his prime, that I watched in Philly, for 3-5 years or so was like Bourque in Boston or Chelios in Chicago or Lidstrom in Detroit. He was the controlling force in most every game. He controlled the game and was the best player on his team. And Philly was a great team during that time, with two different goaltenders as well, so he was the best player on one of the best teams. Niedermeyer never, to me, was that kind of defenceman, a guy that dominating the game for several years. Niedermeyer was a great defenceman but he was not in my mind able to dominate and he was not as good defensively as Howe was and his offence was more exciting but not as consistent and not better offensively. Niedermeyer was not as good as Stevens or Pronger when they played together. He was not THE controlling player on his team and did not dictate the pace of the game like Howe could.

Howe to me is a clear top-tier defenceman for the HHOF. Niedermeyer is a 2nd tier HHOF defenceman. This is just my opinion of course.

McCrimmon is also criminally underrated as well from those Philly teams.
Niedermayer's three highest point totals came when he was a Duck in his 30s. You cannot tell that wasn't a result of his offense being held back by the Devils' system. You cannot tell me that he didn't hit his offensive prime until age 32. If he had played in the 70s and 80s like Howe did, Niedermayer's numbers would have been just as good if not better. I'm not saying Niedermayer was better than Howe, but you can't punish him for the era he played in.

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11-06-2010, 07:47 PM
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Niedermayer's three highest point totals came when he was a Duck in his 30s. You cannot tell that wasn't a result of his offense being held back by the Devils' system. You cannot tell me that he didn't hit his offensive prime until age 32. If he had played in the 70s and 80s like Howe did, Niedermayer's numbers would have been just as good if not better. I'm not saying Niedermayer was better than Howe, but you can't punish him for the era he played in.
Fair enough but it's not like Howe was playing for an offensive power house either.
Those Flyers teams were all about defense too and there were numerous jokes made about how any goal they actually scored on the rush , they would save the puck heh.

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11-06-2010, 08:08 PM
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Niedermayer's three highest point totals came when he was a Duck in his 30s. You cannot tell that wasn't a result of his offense being held back by the Devils' system. You cannot tell me that he didn't hit his offensive prime until age 32. If he had played in the 70s and 80s like Howe did, Niedermayer's numbers would have been just as good if not better. I'm not saying Niedermayer was better than Howe, but you can't punish him for the era he played in.
I am not punishing him for that at all. Nor am I punishing him for being on the Devils who were not a bad scoring team anyway. I am saying Howe was more consistent, Neidermeyer was more streaky and flashy. And far more streaky from year to year than Howe was. But I could be wrong. Howe played like Lidstrom. He just was so smart and always in control of the game. Niedermeyer from watching him over his careers was fantastic in some games and not so fantastic in others. Niedermeyer also took a lot more risks and was more aggressive IMO and was really no better offensively for the risks he took and the turnovers they sometimes caused compared to Howe. Niedermeyer was probably a more dynamic PP player though. I will give him that compared to Howe.

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11-06-2010, 09:45 PM
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What did Alfredsson do to earn the Conn Smythe? I'm not attacking your statement, I just have no idea. I feel like the Ducks dominated that series so much that any Senator winning it would have been crazy. I mean, I personally think Sami Pahlsson should have won but Niedermayer certainly was not a bad choice. Would the other four Ducks be Selanne, Getzlaf, Pahlsson and Giguere? Pronger was huge but they won when he was suspended twice I believe.
Niedermayer was one of the four; the others were Pahlsson, Giguere and Pronger. Alfredsson did lead the playoffs in goals and points, including a series-winning OT goal. If those finals were closer then the Anaheim vote-splitting could have seen Alfie take that trophy.

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11-06-2010, 10:43 PM
  #22
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Niedermayer was one of the four; the others were Pahlsson, Giguere and Pronger. Alfredsson did lead the playoffs in goals and points, including a series-winning OT goal. If those finals were closer then the Anaheim vote-splitting could have seen Alfie take that trophy.
He definitely would have had a strong chance. Good point.

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11-06-2010, 11:03 PM
  #23
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I voted for Nieds slightly over Howe but for me it was like flipping a coin they are that close.

In the end I took their entire careers, including jr in my decision and have no idea on why some people keep insisting that's it's Howe and not even close to me that just screams some kind of bias that isn't really justified by anything that I have seen between the 2 players here.

I can understand that he might be over rated by some but to say that it is not even close is just baffling to me.

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11-07-2010, 09:50 PM
  #24
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I voted for Nieds slightly over Howe but for me it was like flipping a coin they are that close.

In the end I took their entire careers, including jr in my decision and have no idea on why some people keep insisting that's it's Howe and not even close to me that just screams some kind of bias that isn't really justified by anything that I have seen between the 2 players here.

I can understand that he might be over rated by some but to say that it is not even close is just baffling to me.
Why would Niedermayer's junior career give him an edge? Like Niedermayer, Howe also led his team to the Memorial Cup and was named player of the tournament. But Howe did it at the age of 17 instead of 18 - when he was 18 he scored a point per game in professional hockey and was second in playoff scoring on the championship team. Say what you will about the WHA level of competition, but it was a lot better than junior hockey.

From the Ottawa Citizen, May 14, 1973:

Tessier was referring to Gordie Howe's middle son, Mark, who so completely dominated this Memorial Cup under the three-team round-robin format. It prompted one reporter to say "There will be National Hockey League teams fighting to get into last place in 1975 just to obtain draft rights to Howe."

That's the season young Howe will become eligible for the professional draft. And, at 17, he's already being touted as the greatest junior since Bobby Orr.

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11-08-2010, 08:48 AM
  #25
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If you want to see a d-man play almost perfect hockey, watch Howe in 1985-86. Probably the best non-Norris winning season I've ever seen. In terms of all round performance, that season ranks right up there with Robinson in 76-77, Potvin in 78-79 and Bourque in 89-90 as amongst the best I've witnessed

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