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Pat Quinn: Your thoughts?

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05-17-2005, 01:49 PM
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Coaches have taken 'their guys' to international tournaments forever, no matter who's coaching. Sather left Trottier off the '84 Canada Cup team. Keenan took Graham and Larmer to the '91 Canada Cup over Yzerman. Sather took Ranford to the 1996 World Cup. A guy like Eric Brewer ends up on Team Canada when he has no business there because Kevin Lowe is involved in the selection process. And, yeah, Quinn gave Joseph one preliminary round game in 2002 to prove himself. He didn't, and Brodeur went in.

Bottom line is that he won the tournament. I don't know how anyone can criticize anything about that tournament ... it's the biggest success Team Canada has had in the last 15 years.

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05-17-2005, 03:48 PM
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Quick thoughts:

You don't last as a coach/exec in this league for 25 years and be named to coach international squads if you do not possess talent.

Those who criticize Quinn for not winning a Cup need to also recognize him for coaching multiple Cup contenders, including this current Leafs squad, which has become an annual legit threat. The vast majority of NHL coaches, past and present, cannot make that boast.

Personally, I think the league would benefit from more coaches preaching the style of play that Quinn's Leafs perform. That is, hard-hitting and not risk-adverse.

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05-17-2005, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Objectivity isn't a luxury that any coach or GM can have. None of them can just swap players at will to create the perfect hockey team, they need to work with what they have and make some changes to fit his system.

Bowman Sure did in Detroit and Pittsburg. Tampa's GM did it with betting Khabby, Fedotenko, Modin...

Quinn tried with Nolan, Mogilny a 2nd time, Belfour. I will give him this, he as certainly tried, and come close. But for some reason he can't do it.

Honestly, I love the guy and I sure hope he gets his cup. I hate the leafs, but for the last 3 years, I hate to admit this, but I really like that team.

I like Quinn. His dealings with LA and Vancouver are not as dramaticly "evil" as Wetcoaster seems to think. It was a mistake, but certainly not one that hasn't been repeated by many people in the business world.

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05-18-2005, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
Given his history, it is an embarassment he is allowed to represent Canada.

Name the only non-player ever expelled from the NHL for dishonourable conduct. Surprise it is Pat Quinn.

It was about 18 years ago that NHL President John Ziegler expelled and banned Pat Quinn for life from the NHL for conduct prejudicial to the league during the infamous Quinngate affair. How soon we forget.

If it was only an isolated incident, it may have been possible to just say it was an error in judgment; but this was one of three major ethical lapses by Quinn as a coach and manager.

Pat Quinn was coach of the LA Kings during the 1986-87 season. While still coaching that team, under contract to the Kings and negotiating with the Kings for a contract extension of his coaching contract, he entered into mid-season negotiations with the Vancouver Canucks.

On December 11, 1986 he reached an agreement in principle with Vancouver to become GM and President. On December 24,1986 he signed a contract with Vancouver to commence on June 1,1987 as President and GM. On January 2, 1987 while coaching LA and while in Vancouver to play the Canucks, an envelope containing a cheque for $100,000 was delivered to him by a Canuck trainer to seal the deal while he was conducting a practice in preparation for the upcoming game with the Canucks. At that point in the season LA and Vancouver were locked in a struggle to make the play-offs.

Quinn then returned to LA and arranged a lunch with Rogie Vachon, GM of the Kings. Vachon assumed the meeting was to finalize and sign Quinn's coaching contract extension. When Quinn told Vachon he had signed with the Canucks (but not about the $100,000 payment), Vachon was flabbergasted and stormed out of the restaurant, immediately calling Jerry Buss, the owner. After a few days delay, Buss called John Zeigler who became involved.

Meanwhile rumours of the Quinn signing were surfacing in the Vancouver media. Zeigler then called Canucks owner who was in Hawaii on vacation who confirmed the signing and revealed that Quinn had received the $100,00 signing bonus to seal the deal.

Zeigler was outraged and immediately expelled Pat Quinn from the NHL for dishonourable conduct on January 9, 1987. Pat Quinn would later say he never even considered how the public might perceive his conduct in accepting a $100,000 signing bonus from the Vancouver Canucks while he was still under contract to the Los Angeles Kings. He said that he felt that he had done nothing wrong. This from a person (Quinn), who had just completed his law degree and was in the process of seeking admission to the California State Bar. BTW he was not admitted to the State Bar.

The statement from Ziegler expelling Quinn said:

"Mr. Quinn is directly responsible for the preparation and conduct of the Los Angeles Kings' NHL game competitions. Despite these responsibilities, he has committed himself to assume the responsibilities of a general manager for a competing team in this league, has accepted money from them and yet has continued to attempt to discharge his responsibilities to the Los Angeles Kings. Effective immediately, and until further notice to the contrary, Mr. Patrick Quinn is expelled from the National Hockey League and may not be employee by any member club of the league or involved in any further activities on behalf of the league or any of its member clubs."

Zeigler then appointed NHL chief legal counsel, Gil Stein to investigate the case fully and report back to him. After reviewing the report Ziegler fined the Vancouver Canucks $310,000 which represented 31 days from the time of the agreement in principle of December 11, 1986 until Quinn was expelled by Ziegler. Quinn was banned from joining the Canucks as GM until after the both LA and Vancouver were out of the play-offs and prohibited from coaching for three years.

The Canucks and Quinn appealed the decision to the league Board of Governors and the appeal was dismissed. They then appealed to the BC Supreme Court. The Justice ruled that Ziegler had overstepped his bounds by fining the Canucks for 31 separate counts each at $10,000 per day and reduced the fine to $10,000. However he ruled that Ziegler was wholly within his jurisdiction to deal with Quinn in the manner he had done and declined to interfere in the discipline meted out by Ziegler to Pat Quinn.

A reporter would later ask Quinn, if his decision to accept the Canucks' overture was out of character, Quinn said: "I'd like to think that's the case."

Unfortunately it appears totally in character as, during his court appeal, evidence was filed showing that he had connived to keep his former contract to coach the Kings secret after being fired by the Flyers in 1985. By keeping the Kings contract-signing secret, he was able to obtain a further $50,000 as damages from the Flyers for his firing. Had he been truthful, he would not legally have been entitled to that payment. The Flyers management were furious when they learned of his deception and the Kings were not blameless either as they conspired with him to keep the deal under wraps. The Kings then should not have been surprised when Quinn did the same thing to them – they knew his predilections.

Interestingly Quinngate came back to haunt Quinn during the Vladimir Krutov transfer fee dispute hearing held in Stockholm which ended up costing the Canucks about $1.3 million when the Arbitrator found Vancouver liable for the last two years of the transfer fee payments to the Russian Ice Hockey authorities for signing Krutov. Quinn’s credibility was destroyed when he was unable to explain to the satisfaction of the Arbitrator how it was that the Canucks were also reneging on the transfer fee payments for Igor Larionov although they had not cut him from the team. Quinn claimed he was of good character and was then faced with the facts of Quinngate to show his bad character.

In a desperate last minute maneuver to shore up their crumbling case, the Canucks mere days before the hearing paid up the missed Larionov payments and in fact pre-paid the next installments. Quinn had loudly proclaimed his honesty and integrity when trying to explain the Larionov situation. Once Quinn did that, he opened up his character to question and the whole sordid Quinngate affair was laid out for the Arbitrator to see.

The Canucks defense to not paying the transfer fees for Krutov rested on two grounds. Firstly the Krutov standard NHL playing contract with the Vancouver Canucks was collateral to the transfer fee agreement with the Russian hockey authorites (sort of sub-contract). The Canucks claimed that Krutov by allegedly breaching that contract by not being in shape as alleged by the Canucks, resulted in the Canucks being able to avoid the further transfer fees under the contract with the Russian authorities (of course the Larionov transfer fee situation did not go a long way to helping the Canucks case).

The Canucks missed the major requirement to claim this was a collateral contract – Krutov was not party to the transfer fee agreement and as the Arbitrator pointed out it was first year law student knowledge that collateral contracts must be between the same parties. Interestingly neither Burke with his law degree from Harvard nor Quinn with his just completed law degree from the University of Philadeplhia picked up on this rather obvious defect in their case. DUH!

The second defense was that Quinn alleged that he had an oral promise from the Russians that they would forgive the last two years of the transfer fees if either Krutov or Larionov did not stay with the team. The Russians denied that they had ever made such a promise. Again basic contract law generally prevents a party from going outside the signed contract clauses and like most contracts it also provided that all previous negotiations, discussions and agreements are void. Quinn then tried to claim that in fact this promise was given after the contracts were all signed and again the Russians denied this occurred. Again courts do not usually allow such claims but there are some exceptions. Even if an exception were to be made, it would require Quinn’s word to be preferred against that of the Russian negotiators. Given Quinngate and Quinn’s own abysmal performance in explaining the Larionov transfer fee situation, the Arbitrator had little trouble in dismissing Quinn’s credibility out of hand.

This portion of Quinn’s testimony under cross-examination by counsel for the Russian hockey authorities is priceless and it was published in the Vancouver Province on February 26, 1992 under the headline QUINN: 'WE MESSED UP HERE' - THE KRUTOV RULING: THE TRANSCRIPTS

Quinn was President and GM and Krutov and Larionov at the time were the most expensive players under contract to the Canucks and they were in fact the only two player contracts that Quinn had ever negotiated according to his own evidence. Do you not find it incredible he did not know precisely what was going on regarding the missed transfer fees? The Arbitrator certainly did.

And this is the sort of person we chose to represent Canada. Sad, very sad.

Maybe we should bring Alan Eagleson back to organize the team for Hockey Canada? Quinn and Eagleson - birds of a feather.
Good article. That is one of the worst situations I have ever heard in all of sports. Quinn should still be banned for that disgusting act, at least Pete Rose bet on his own team.

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05-19-2005, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan
Quinn is a great coach who can't seem to get his NHL team's over the top. He also get's them close.. yet he can't get the right pieces to finish the job.

Great coach and average GM who is not objective enough of his own talent when it is truly needed.
I'd agree with that for the most part. He's a good coach, but I wouldn't use the term "great" unless and until he can win a Cup. There are definite flaws in his team-building strategy, particularly on the defensive side.

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05-19-2005, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by PepNCheese
I'd agree with that for the most part. He's a good coach, but I wouldn't use the term "great" unless and until he can win a Cup. There are definite flaws in his team-building strategy, particularly on the defensive side.
He is definitely not a "systems coach" - too much pond hockey on the defensive side.

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05-19-2005, 10:02 PM
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Pat Quinn likes to run his mouth off to the media about how all the referees are out to get him.

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05-19-2005, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
He is definitely not a "systems coach" - too much pond hockey on the defensive side.
yup, I think he and Hitchcock complimented each other well at the Olympics because of that

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