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Is Jeff Carter the mike Schmidt of the Flyers ?

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Old
11-08-2010, 09:31 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyflu View Post
DrDoom,

Funny thing is, I like Carter, more than Richie in fact. At least Jeff can win a draw. I was also a big Abreu (and Schmidty) fan. But I digress.

I agree, playing him out of position isn't doing him any favors. The guy was born to be a right winger. But he is either incapable of adjusting or is too damn stubborn.
Carter has improved on draws and Richards still hasn't worked on that part of his game like Crosby. However, Richards gets himself and the team involved in a number of ways and doesn't always have to score. Carter is paid to do just that and thus far getting your points in 5 of 15 gp and against teams with weak defenses like the Isles, Carolina, Colorado and Buff doesn't impress me. Moreover, if anybody has been jerked around it's been Richards with the crappy wingers he gets. I agree Jeff has to suck it up and round out his game by playing better out of what he deems his natural position. Right now he's not adjusting well so maybe he needs some time. I will say that having him around in case of injury is important and he can fill in that center slot nicely but depending on how much they want to pay him..it might be a bit of a luxury of sorts. Having said this I would rather thin out the D with salary to get who we need signed next season and build up the wings since Zherdev and JVR are still on probation and we don't know what kind of production we're going to get with them...

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11-08-2010, 09:39 AM
  #27
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DrDoom,

That's the biggest issue I have with Richards. He doesn't seem to want to work to get better. I admit, I almost have a hatred toward the kid. I just don't like him. He shows up once in a while and everyone lauds how great a leader he is, leads by example and all that crap.

To me, his leading by example is why they look lifeless and heartless half the time, going through the motions just like their captain.

Anyway, that's totally off topic.

Jeff I don't have nearly as big a problem with, and honestly, I think he would be a hell of a lot better if he wasn't around Richards. I don't have anything to back up that opinion but that's what I think.

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11-08-2010, 10:05 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyflu View Post
Jester,

Apparently I missed the entire point of this message board. I thought it was to debate differing opinions, not just slap everyone on the back and say, good job, I agree with you. My apologies. I understand now that any discourse is frowned upon.

Excellent comparison btw, Schmidt and Carter is right on. I love Jeff, he's getting a raw deal. Philly doesn't deserve him.

To the OP, I apologize for offering a different opinion from yours, you were right, I was wrong.
That is the point of the message board, but the problem with your post had nothing to do with having a disagreeing opinion with the OP. Your post concerned disagreeing with him comparing Carter and Schmidt as players. That's not what the OP was making an observation about, which gets back to your reading comprehension.

You did not address the OP, you addressed your shallow reading of the post and confusion because you didn't like the wording of the title. Again, your problem, not his... and criticizing the OP because you failed to read it... is being a dick.

The OP makes zero reference to the production of players, and comments on the aesthetic look of their play and the negative response it draws from fans. That's it. You read that as a comparison between a HoF player and a--according to you--guy with no shot at being a HoF player.

So, by all means debate points. But calling someone out for making an argument they didn't make is called tearing down a paper tiger.

Congrats on shredding that paper tiger.

In the meantime, your original post had nothing to do with what the OP was stating, and this post continues to prove that you just don't get it.

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11-08-2010, 10:09 AM
  #29
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Jester,

Yes, yes. I've already apologized good sir. What more would like from me? I humbly request your mercy.

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11-08-2010, 10:10 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by phillyflu View Post
Jester,

Yes, yes. I've already apologized good sir. What more would like from me? I humbly request your mercy.
Yes, full snark is an apology.

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Old
11-08-2010, 10:19 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yes, full snark is an apology.
Please stop harassing me.

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Old
11-08-2010, 11:23 AM
  #32
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people who think Carter is sacrosanct on these boards needs to go back and read threads from last season.

there's a difference between balanced criticism, and being unreasonable. apparently because people here disagree with people who have an unreasonable hate of carter, we see him as a saint?

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Old
11-08-2010, 11:34 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
people who think Carter is sacrosanct on these boards needs to go back and read threads from last season.

there's a difference between balanced criticism, and being unreasonable. apparently because people here disagree with people who have an unreasonable hate of carter, we see him as a saint?
I'd like a definition of unreasonable hate? That is the problem..it seems any criticism of the guy is equated as "hate". It's similar to uttering the word "conspiracy" and then all manner of thought is supposed to cease. Cartsiephan has a shtick with Carter which is obvious but he does make valid points but are they always balanced..probably not so yes that is where I agree the criticism has to be balanced but so does the interpretation from supporters. And no not all supporters are religious about it but just as people are at times overly dogmatic about criticising the guy it works the same with those supporting him and overlooking things that they won't overlook in other players....

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11-08-2010, 11:38 AM
  #34
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Carter has a LONG way to go to get to Mike Schmidt. He's somewhere between Von Hayes and Donovan McNabb right now.

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11-08-2010, 11:38 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PycckuuRocket10 View Post
Is Jeff Carter the Mike Schmidt of the Flyers?

No. Schmidt was never a ****** (rhymes with Boosh).
Who the **** cares if he's a ******? If can score 40 something goals a year he can be the biggest jerk on the planet and I wouldn't care.

Then again, if he were russian you'd love him.

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11-08-2010, 11:47 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
I'd like a definition of unreasonable hate? That is the problem..it seems any criticism of the guy is equated as "hate". It's similar to uttering the word "conspiracy" and then all manner of thought is supposed to cease. Cartsiephan has a shtick with Carter which is obvious but he does make valid points but are they always balanced..probably not so yes that is where I agree the criticism has to be balanced but so does the interpretation from supporters. And no not all supporters are religious about it but just as people are at times overly dogmatic about criticising the guy it works the same with those supporting him and overlooking things that they won't overlook in other players....
Carter was a whipping boy last year, and if you look around, he still takes a lot of heat. it's the people who insist that he can be traded for picks and prospects without any negative impact to the team that strike me as absurd. there are also people who refuse to see anything positive about him, always seem to disappear when he's doing well, and refuse to believe he's defensively responsible

comparing him to donovan mcnabb is actually very apt, whoever just did that.

edit: i'm by no means a Carter apologist, I have plenty of complaints about him, but he isn't as awful as so many people claim he is

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11-08-2010, 11:54 AM
  #37
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I didnt even have to read the post to know what the OP was getting at in the thread title. The Hate and the booing for Mike Schmidt was unwarranted, just like it is for Carter at the moment.

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11-08-2010, 12:01 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I didnt even have to read the post to know what the OP was getting at in the thread title. The Hate and the booing for Mike Schmidt was unwarranted, just like it is for Carter at the moment.
My wife and I sat next to Carter-haters last game (against the Rangers). They shut up after I pointed out Carter's screen was huge in Pronger's goal. I said Carter does little things that most fans miss. They left early.

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11-08-2010, 12:05 PM
  #39
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Mike Schmidt still isn't getting respect, as seen by the fact that his first name isn't capitalized in the thread title.

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11-08-2010, 12:05 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Carter was a whipping boy last year, and if you look around, he still takes a lot of heat. it's the people who insist that he can be traded for picks and prospects without any negative impact to the team that strike me as absurd. there are also people who refuse to see anything positive about him, always seem to disappear when he's doing well, and refuse to believe he's defensively responsible

comparing him to donovan mcnabb is actually very apt, whoever just did that.

edit: i'm by no means a Carter apologist, I have plenty of complaints about him, but he isn't as awful as so many people claim he is
Whoever is claiming he is awful is obviously not balanced in their assessment but this is the problem..it's always an argument between two extremes that is annoying. Sometimes people I've noticed create this false equivalency of two extremes. If you make points about his game you don't like you have people automatically calling you a "hater" and then you have the other extreme of being labeled an apologist. This is where the discourse breaks down in assessing the guy or anybody else for that matter.

Let's face it Carter is mostly valued for the fact that he scored 46 goals and in some people's minds he will do that again over the course of his career. Maybe so or maybe not. So far he's not on that pace and he's scored points in 5 of 12gp and against weaker defensive teams. Will that continue..who knows. I would like to think not but this is where just as you may want Giroux to prove himself a full season and not jump the gun I think the same goes with Carter. Again my gripe is overvaluing the guy and possibly overpaying which is Holmgren's penchant as we all know. You can always get a defensive center for a fraction of his cost and then get a more natural scoring winger with the rest of the money but it all depends on what he's going to get. To me 6.5M to 7M is wayyyyy to much no matter what the terms of the contract. I can stomach 5.5 to 6M and 3 years for what is looking like a higher end 30 goal scorer than a perennial 40 goal scorer. Also it's good to have a guy like him for depth purposes at center especially if he can't adjust to the wing which it seems Lavy wants him to do. Again it all depends on the cost. If this view is one of hate well it's no sense reasoning....

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Old
11-08-2010, 12:12 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyflu View Post
Please stop harassing me.
FWIW Phillyflu, I had the EXACT same initial reaction to the title of this thread that you did.

I'm sorry Jester but, to me, putting the two in the same sentence "Is Jeff Carter the Flyers Mike Schmidt?" begs comparisons between the two on several levels.

If all this thread meant to suggest is that the OP feels that Jeff Carter is underappreciated and Mike Schmidt was also underappreciated then fine.

Although it would be impossible to measure, I would suggest that Schmidt was much more underappreciated than Carter ever will be given that he was a generational type of player who many consider the best at his position in the history of his game (as previously mentioned).

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11-08-2010, 12:27 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Whoever is claiming he is awful is obviously not balanced in their assessment but this is the problem..it's always an argument between two extremes that is annoying. Sometimes people I've noticed create this false equivalency of two extremes. If you make points about his game you don't like you have people automatically calling you a "hater" and then you have the other extreme of being labeled an apologist. This is where the discourse breaks down in assessing the guy or anybody else for that matter.

Let's face it Carter is mostly valued for the fact that he scored 46 goals and in some people's minds he will do that again over the course of his career. Maybe so or maybe not. So far he's not on that pace and he's scored points in 5 of 12gp and against weaker defensive teams. Will that continue..who knows. I would like to think not but this is where just as you may want Giroux to prove himself a full season and not jump the gun I think the same goes with Carter. Again my gripe is overvaluing the guy and possibly overpaying which is Holmgren's penchant as we all know. You can always get a defensive center for a fraction of his cost and then get a more natural scoring winger with the rest of the money but it all depends on what he's going to get. To me 6.5M to 7M is wayyyyy to much no matter what the terms of the contract. I can stomach 5.5 to 6M and 3 years for what is looking like a higher end 30 goal scorer than a perennial 40 goal scorer. Also it's good to have a guy like him for depth purposes at center especially if he can't adjust to the wing which it seems Lavy wants him to do. Again it all depends on the cost. If this view is one of hate well it's no sense reasoning....
That and the 29 and 33 sandwiched around it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phlflyer1 View Post
FWIW Phillyflu, I had the EXACT same initial reaction to the title of this thread that you did.

I'm sorry Jester but, to me, putting the two in the same sentence "Is Jeff Carter the Flyers Mike Schmidt?" begs comparisons between the two on several levels.

If all this thread meant to suggest is that the OP feels that Jeff Carter is underappreciated and Mike Schmidt was also underappreciated then fine.

Although it would be impossible to measure, I would suggest that Schmidt was much more underappreciated than Carter ever will be given that he was a generational type of player who many consider the best at his position in the history of his game (as previously mentioned).
But that ain't what the OP posted, so if you want to make that comparison, by all means go ahead. However, opening up with a sarcastic post criticizing the OP when he didn't make the comparison you are criticizing is just *ing wrong, and proving you didn't bother to read (or at least understand) what the OP wrote.

The OP isn't talking about their level of play or production. He is talking about the aesthetic look of their play and how fans then react to that. Maybe you disagree with that, but it has nothing to do with the fact that Schmidt was a generational talent whereas Carter is not.

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11-08-2010, 12:32 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Carter was a whipping boy last year, and if you look around, he still takes a lot of heat. it's the people who insist that he can be traded for picks and prospects without any negative impact to the team that strike me as absurd. there are also people who refuse to see anything positive about him, always seem to disappear when he's doing well, and refuse to believe he's defensively responsible

comparing him to donovan mcnabb is actually very apt, whoever just did that.

edit: i'm by no means a Carter apologist, I have plenty of complaints about him, but he isn't as awful as so many people claim he is
Yeah, the development of Cartsiephan has apparently created this perception by the newbies (Sorry, if you feel Carter is above criticism, all it does is prove you are new to this site and don't know what you're talking about) that Carter doesn't get criticized. As if we haven't had ongoing conversations about his "high and wide" propensity, going on forever.

What the criticizers don't seem to grasp is what they're getting called out on is just not knowing what they're talking about.

Myth:

1) Carter misses the net a ridiculous amount (no, he doesn't... shooters miss the net a lot across the board).

2) Carter hurts his wings production (Hartnell, Lupul, and Briere all beg to differ).

3) Related: Briere sucks at wing (completely false statement).

So on and so forth.

There's lots to criticize in Carter's game. I, for one, find his inability to play on his backhand infuriating. That's an issue for him at center, it's a debilitating handicap when he's playing RW, because it makes it nearly impossible for him to take the puck to the middle of the ice.

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Old
11-08-2010, 12:34 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Flyskippy View Post
My wife and I sat next to Carter-haters last game (against the Rangers). They shut up after I pointed out Carter's screen was huge in Pronger's goal. I said Carter does little things that most fans miss. They left early.
It was a beautiful screen, including getting his leg out of the way as the puck went by.

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Old
11-08-2010, 01:18 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
It was a beautiful screen, including getting his leg out of the way as the puck went by.
Pronger now yells, "Fore!" when Jeff Carter is down low.

(almost-needless clarification: so Jeff's feet don't get broken again)

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Old
11-08-2010, 01:39 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You realize that Jeff Carter at his current pace, and avoiding serious injuries will hit 500 goals in his mid 30s, right?

And he's comparing the idiotic fan reaction to a player, not the players themselves.
Thank you !

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11-08-2010, 01:41 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Mike Schmidt still isn't getting respect, as seen by the fact that his first name isn't capitalized in the thread title.
Duly noted !

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Old
11-08-2010, 02:38 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by 46zone View Post
Who the **** cares if he's a ******? If can score 40 something goals a year he can be the biggest jerk on the planet and I wouldn't care.

Then again, if he were russian you'd love him.
Yep so true. Because I love Frolov, Gonchar, Volchenkov, etc. *cough* sarcasm *cough*

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Old
11-08-2010, 02:54 PM
  #49
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Carter needs to have a really strong post season to get the board off his back.

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Old
11-09-2010, 02:13 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by kicksave27 View Post
Carter needs to have a really strong post season to get the board off his back.
Yea i guess you are right, Mike Schmidt had people on his back his whole career.Its interesting to me, i think Giriox is leading our club in points, and Carter is only 3 or 4 points behind him and you would think he is playing terrible reading some of the things you read here.I guess that is just part of sports i suppose, it certainly makes interesting discussion.

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